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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Radical Honesty [Re: Veritas]
    #4321351 -

Well yea, it can benefit you in some ways, but often people turn their back to you when you show flaws like that.
Bark like a dog at them and they will treat you like a dog


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Radical Honesty [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4321455 -

Yes! And that feedback could be an important part of your motivation for healing yourself.

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Re: Radical Honesty [Re: Veritas]
    #4321477 -

Yes, but it can also damage some things, for excample get you fired.

Of course being fired can also serve as a wake up call, but for example it is hard to find a job where I live, and you may be unemployed for a long time


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Radical Honesty [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4321536 -

I agree that when there is an uneven distribution of power (parent-child, boss-employee) honesty is much riskier. When the more-powerful party is likely to withhold resources/assistance as a consequence of my honesty, I usually either keep my mouth shut or evade/lie.

That is hypocritical of me, of course. I suppose that honesty is not as high a priority for me as say, paying my rent!

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Re: Radical Honesty [Re: Veritas]
    #4322067 -

Radical honesty seems almost impossible to me. Yet my experience has shown me that being more honest often has beneficial results rather than not. It's a risk for sure. But taking calculated risks is where it's at if you're after growth.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Radical Honesty [Re: Icelander]
    #4322088 -

communication itself is a process of lieing

we are honest when we sleep


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: Radical Honesty [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4322142 -

OldWoodSpecter said:
communication itself is a process of lieing


Please explain? :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Radical Honesty [Re: Icelander]
    #4322158 -

Well, whatever you say it a twisted version of your thoughts

You go describing a painting to someone, and you have this image in your head, but what ends up exiting your mouth is a bunch of words that are very far from your vision.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Radical Honesty [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4322178 -

I think we are talking about deliberately lying here. What you refer to is an inability to convey something accurately, due to possible limitations of the mental/verbal process.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Radical Honesty [Re: Icelander]
    #4322191 -

hey if people can say that sun is painted on the sky (abstract poethic freedom), I can use the world lie in a different ways


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Radical Honesty [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4322197 -

Of course you can, but you are off topic I believe. :mushroom2:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Radical Honesty [Re: Veritas]
    #4322830 -

There is a time and a place ...and the proper company for absolute honesty. It has been the bane of my existance that I never learned to recognice the proper time, place, or company.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Radical Honesty [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4323544 -

Yes, the material need for surviving has something to do with dishonesty. As childs and as very old persons we are very honest, because we have nothing to loose.
Inbetween, spiritual strength is, if you stay honest, when you are material poor even to stay honest, when you are materially rich.

I think, only through honesty can humans evolve spiritually in a personal and a 'global' way. So honesty is one of the highest goods to me. Of course I also love irony or cynicism, but thats part of honesty.

Isn't getting conscious not also getting able to lie intentionally ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Radical Honesty [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #4324276 -

I disagree with your assertion that children and the elderly are more honest because they have less to lose. Children (and elderly invalids) are very vulnerable and dependent on their caregivers.

We are taught to lie by our parents and other authority figures in our childhood. Children are not as capable of lying because they have not developed self-control. They blurt out what they are thinking without stopping to consider the consequences.

Elder persons may become more honest because their "inner censor" has been affected by physical degeneration of their brain. However, if they are physically and emotionally dependent upon their caregivers, they may fear being truly honest when it puts them at risk.

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Re: Radical Honesty [Re: Veritas]
    #4324520 -

"I never lie to any man because I don't fear anyone. The only time you lie is when you are afraid." -John Gotti





--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Radical Honesty [Re: Veritas]
    #4324658 -

I just want to throw this out there to anyone for consideration. Here at S&P we talk about the truth being subjective and that there are no absolutes. In this sense, it seems the only thing there is to lie about are facts.

Saying you hate something is a subjective impermanent truth.

Saying you were born in the year 1950 when you were factually born in the year 1945 is a lie from the factual truth.

Why do people put sooooooooo much stock into subjective impermanent truths and lies?

Often , factual truths don't even mean squat to people because of the subjective impermanent nature of reality. They are limiting to the whole of what is being experienced on a multidimensional frame.

When it gets down to it, we are intelligent creative human beings with the power to craft and manipulate realities that seem real. We are even the ones who created facts to manipulate our reality with. How funny is that.

"The fact is, I can't be in NYC any quicker the 5 hours. That's the reality of the situation". Is it? What if your plane gets delayed or crashes, you can't even be there in 5 hours. Who says you have to even be there? Another who is attempting to manipulate a reality with you there in 3 hours. What if you think out of the box and take a private jet and shave a few hours off of early check-ins and waiting for baggage? The facts and reality just changed again.

The thing is, it's all so malleable. Some people go through life thinking there is and are truths and facts that dictate their lives and realities to them when really, its the other way around.

What if you start deciding for yourself what truth and fact are and see how you can shape shift your reality. You can turn it upside down and inside out if you wanted to.

It may be a fact that so many hours are in a day but who created the measurement? Who gives it meaning? It's a back drop for life, a frame work to live by or within, an illusion.

An actor can have you caught up in the plights of Hamlet or the Man in the Iron Mask with a stage back drop of WWII.

When you start looking at "facts" or subjective truths as creative tools for shapeshifting realities with, the whole ball game changes. It's very empowering.

Often, people create these HUGE dramas based on "facts and subjective truths" to provoke action or reaction from others. They are directing their own screen plays looking for actors to play roles in them. Have you ever experienced what happens when you say to them, "So What?" and mean it? It deflates into nothing.

You can react and say, "That's an outrage, something must be done and I will take action" and get sucked up into someone elses drama as an actor playing a role.

Making guest cameo appearances is one thing. Do you know when you are doing it and what the difference is. Who is writing the scripts for your life? Who is directing the show? Who is casting you?

The more you experience and use yourself as your own writer , director, casting agent and see yourself as the actor, the more you realize how malleable it all is. When one lives knowing themselves as the writer, director, casting agent and actor they live in their own relative truth.

To think there is some absolute truth to be living in is a funny thought. To live with integrity is to live in your own truth. You create it for yourself.

If we ever feel like we have to hide something from others it's either because we type casted them to play a role we feel threatened by or because we got sucked up into playing a role in their screen play and started believing we were the actor and had no ability to direct, write and cast or act in our own.

The world will get along without any one of us playing a role in it. Where does this sense of self importance come from? "facts", "subjective truths" supporting actors we casted, wrote lines for and directed?

That was an abstract on this topic.

I also wanted to comment that guarding secrets is not what takes a lot of energy from us. The guilt attached to them is the energy drain and heavy baggage to carry around. No confessions need ever be made. Just forgive yourself for what ever it was and it will be set free from you.

We don't owe anyone anything. That's a duality trap that puts us into conflict with ourselves. People will use it too to create a supporting actor out of you in their screen plays to up their sense of self importance in their own screen plays.

Take a day and watch for all of this stuff in your life. It's funny.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: Radical Honesty [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #4324671 -

Jiggy, O master of the meaty post. I wish to agree mucho with this one small part. :thumbup: :grin:


"I also wanted to comment that guarding secrets is not what takes a lot of energy from us. The guilt attached to them is the energy drain and heavy baggage to carry around. No confessions need ever be made. Just forgive yourself for what ever it was and it will be set free from you."  :heart: :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Radical Honesty [Re: Icelander]
    #4327484 -

(edit: Oops, replied to Veritas)
With loss, I meant not only material loss. Also pride, or other psychological schemes are only in danger to be lost between child and old-age. These psychological factors can be described as 'masks' we (were forced to) put on, as Jiggy said.
But material loss is often a prime motivator for a lie.
For childrens, material loss is irrelevant, because, they normally have someone who cares for them and, of course, the 'world is theirs' until a relevant age, where they have to learn that stupidity, that humans claim this and that from earth to sell to others. it's not enough for them to demand money for collecting and refining, no, they want that you wont get anything similar except from them.
So, adults also have to make their 'unnatural' claims, which accelerates the circle of demanding and offering, which is called economics.
Perhaps economics are the base of lies, I don't know. I only stated, that radical honesty is only be met by young childs and older persons, and that it has something to do with material surviving and that it is called spiritual strength not to let his own honesty be influenced by materialism or life-age.
It is a very interesting thing to think about.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (06/23/05 02:05 AM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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