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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Honesty and the Arbitrary
#5543686 - 04/22/06 11:15 AM (18 years, 2 hours ago) |
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by J. Rowlands
One of the major Objectivist virtues is honesty. There are a number of reasons why being honest is in your rational self-interest. One of the more interesting reasons is epistemological. When you tell a lie, to keep it from being found out, you have to store that information in your mind. The bigger and more complicated the lie, the more details you need to you retain. In essence, you create a second view of the world within your mind. To keep from being caught, you have to spend mental effort always keeping this alternative view of the world consistent with what other people know.
When some new piece of information comes your way, you need to not only try to integrate it with your understanding of reality, but you need to try to integrate it with your lie. Whenever you need to choose what to do or say, you have to analyze it within the context of your real understanding, but also within the context of your lie. The bigger the lie, the more mental effort you waste on it. That's brain-power you could be using to live a better life. And the more lies you try to maintain, the bigger the mental burden is. You'd eventually get crushed by the weight of the lies. It's not surprising that when the truth comes out, often the liar is relieved. He no longer has to live in a state of constant anxiety, spending every ounce of energy he's got on keeping his lies straight.
Take an example of a man who steals from a friend. Let's say he stole a tool set. The problem with keeping the tool set is that his friend might find out. He may want to keep it, but he has to hide it in his garage. He would become fearful of his friend coming to visit after that. He may still try to invite him over, but he'd always be nervous. He may have to hide it. If his wife asks him where he got it, he has to make something up, like he bought it on sale. He becomes fearful of saying anything in front of his wife and friend that might lead the conversation towards tools. He quickly tries to change the subjects when they get dangerous. Instead of enjoying a conversation with a friend, he has to constantly focus on the lie. This is just one of many ways in which a lie can cause this kind of mental chaos.
This kind of epistemological quagmire happens for another reason as well. When people accept the arbitrary as true, they again fill their minds with ideas that are not related to reality. They create an alternative view of the world.
If they try to keep the arbitrary beliefs separated from their actual knowledge of the world, they run into the same problem of overwhelming their cognitive ability. New ideas would be contrasted with reality, and then with the arbitrary beliefs. Choices and discussions would have to rely on both sets of views. When deciding how to act, you have to look at both system of beliefs. And whenever a conflict it found, you have to try to sort them out. You emotions will by confused and unreliable by having two entirely different value judgment results.
For instance, if you believe that all mankind is by nature evil, and yet in your experience some people are good, you have a conflict. Your emotions may lead you to not trusting people, or they may lead you to acting kindly toward those who deserve it. Your emotions become unreliable. You set them up to be in opposition to your reasoning. You destroy their usefulness.
Keeping the arbitrary disjointed from reality causes its own problems. Instead of integrating your beliefs into a coherent world-view, you intentionally keep your mind fragmented. Instead of using unit-economy, abstraction, integration and other epistemological functions to reduce the amount of necessary mental work you need to do, you would be multiplying the work. You'd have to contrast it to every arbitrary belief. You may look for ways of reconciling facts with your theories, causing new theories. You mind would get overwhelmed trying to keep track of the details.
As an example, say you believe the moon is made of green cheese. Now when you see footage of men walking on the moon, you have to integrate that knowledge with everything else you know. Instead of focusing on reality, you have to start trying to figure out how it might be compatible with your beliefs. Maybe you'll postulate that it was all a hoax, or maybe you'll believe that the outer layer of the moon must have been covered with rock and space dust, but the cheese is in there somewhere.
As you continue adding arbitrary claims to your mental portfolio, eventually you lose track of reality in that ocean of mystical beliefs. When you gain some new piece of information, you have to contrast it with each of these wildly bizarre theories, as well as the arbitrary theories you invented to avoid dismissing the original claims. Instead of looking for clean, simple answers, you get used to contorting the evidence and the truth to fit your preconceptions. Your mind stops being a tool of awareness, and becomes a tool of evasion.
It should be obvious that you're wasting precious mental energy on a worthless endeavor, but this is what happens when you've accepted the arbitrary. You mind spends energy trying to avoid conflicts, and the result is that you accept more and more arbitrary claims to support the first one. Your beliefs grow in complexity as you add more and more absurd ideas trying to reconcile arbitrary claims with reality. How do you keep it all separate in your head?
Those who insist on being dishonest or irrational are necessarily drawn to the same conclusion. You don't have to be burdened with keeping it all separate. Why not just believe the lies? Why not just accept the arbitrary as being as real as actual knowledge? Even if they don't make a conscious decision, it would require focus and mental effort in order to keep them separated. When you relax your diligence, the outcome is a mixing of the two, treating them as equals. The borders between reality and fantasy are blurred. You stop caring about things like evidence or contradictions. You believe whatever you want, and damn the consequences.
There are those who argue that there's nothing wrong with accepting the arbitrary, because there's no proof that it isn't real (and no evidence that it is). They ask what the harm is in believing what's not real. The answer is that you destroy your mind piece by piece when you try.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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fresh313
journeyman
Registered: 09/01/03
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Last seen: 13 years, 4 days
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buddha came 2 me in a dream one night, flanked by beautiful women bringing him food and drink, while he layed on a bed of course with his belly real big hangin out. and i kneeled in front of him, like shit is that the buddha , but i didnt say anything. and after a little bit of doing whatever he was doing he looked at me and said "tell the truth" , i prolly tried to say some shit to him after that but he zapped me out of his dimension. some buddha love.
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment
Registered: 12/23/04
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Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
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Re: Honesty and the Arbitrary [Re: fresh313]
#5543960 - 04/22/06 12:15 PM (18 years, 1 hour ago) |
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What truth have you yet to diclose in your life?
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palmersc
Stranger
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Quote:
SkorpivoMusterion said: by J. Rowlands As you continue adding arbitrary claims to your mental portfolio, eventually you lose track of reality in that ocean of mystical beliefs. When you gain some new piece of information, you have to contrast it with each of these wildly bizarre theories, as well as the arbitrary theories you invented to avoid dismissing the original claims. Instead of looking for clean, simple answers, you get used to contorting the evidence and the truth to fit your preconceptions. Your mind stops being a tool of awareness, and becomes a tool of evasion.
This is how I functioned most of my life. It dawned on me that it's not worth living an illusion. There are so many conflicting views and information that it is our nature to find some comfort zone and defend it. I make a conscious effort not to take anything personally. I don't really feel like I have much to defend now.
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fresh313
journeyman
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Re: Honesty and the Arbitrary [Re: Sinbad]
#5546060 - 04/23/06 12:26 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sinbad said: What truth have you yet to diclose in your life?
none anymore, that was a while ago. i disclose as it lets itself be known to me.
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Lakefingers
Registered: 08/26/05
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Post deleted by Lakefingers
Reason for deletion: No reason.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Honesty and the Arbitrary [Re: Lakefingers]
#5546998 - 04/23/06 10:15 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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The biggest lies are the things we do so horrible they must be lied about. The biggest tragedy is when we do those horrible things often enough and have lied about them for so long that even we start believing the lies to be truth.
-------------------- Anxiety is what you make it.
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blaze2
The Witness
Registered: 12/20/02
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Re: Honesty and the Arbitrary [Re: LunarEclipse]
#5552438 - 04/24/06 08:23 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Im so glad this guy knows how my own mind works better than I do. Of course I have to wonder how a godless man could ever be so arrogant as to assume he knows the mind of a believer.
Here is the thing a believer wasnt always a believer. even those children rasied in churches dont truly believe until they get their own personal revelation. Mine came last year and I do remember not believing. I know both sides of the coin, all believers do. People like this quak can only see their own side, and assume to know the other as well as anyone who live in it. It all has to do with the Godless man's own pride, and arrogance. They cant imagine not having them. Skorp actually went so far as to try and defend selfish pride as a virtue in a thread last week or so.
I promise you everyone gets a glimpse, a light shining through a cracked door. You have to take it upon yourself to push that door open, and you cannot take any hate, arrogance, pride, or selfishness through that door. THis scares people liek this guy. I find that sad.
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: Honesty and the Arbitrary [Re: blaze2]
#5552535 - 04/24/06 08:41 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Here is the thing a believer wasnt always a believer.
..and a skeptic wasn't always a skeptic.
Skorp actually went so far as to try and defend selfish pride as a virtue in a thread last week or so.
Imagine that. Selfishness and pride - what a concept.
You have to take it upon yourself to push that door open, and you cannot take any hate, arrogance, pride, or selfishness through that door. THis scares people liek this guy. I find that sad.
Upon observing your 'discussions' with Fireworks as well as epithets you've made to myself and others, I find it hard to believe you are above and beyond all these attributes, features and qualities you've named, to whatever degree.
Of course, such dishonesty doesn't surprise me one bit with mystics.
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom
Registered: 02/10/06
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Re: Honesty and the Arbitrary [Re: blaze2]
#5552574 - 04/24/06 08:48 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Some are bound to sleep, others are bound to awaken.
For someone who rants and raves about pride like it's the best thing since sliced bread, and dismisses compassion as a weakness, there isn't much you can do to work with such unenlightened thinking. Even in my materialist days I was never that hardcore, despite all the jaw-dropping things I did, such as burning a Bible to Marilyn Manson when I was in high shcool
-------------------- "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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blaze2
The Witness
Registered: 12/20/02
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We are born skeptics man. Think about the little kid around 2 years old when they start all that why buisness. Why is the sky blue the kid asks, you try to explain to them that as light passes through the air it gets bounced and bent into a blue color. THeir next question is invaribly why does is get bent and turn blue? Skeptics are just little kids who never trust themselves to take a leap of faith.
nice try man. I admit I have pride we all do to an extent teh differenece between us is you embrace it selfishly, while I try my best to reject it.
No one is above and beyond any feelings. I feel selfishness, I feel arrogance, I feel pride. These are inescapable qualites of humanity, but that does not mean that one must give in to them. I choose to embrace the virtues of Love, yours are the virtues of hate. you poor lost sheep.
blaze2
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
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Re: Honesty and the Arbitrary [Re: blaze2]
#5552678 - 04/24/06 09:02 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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From you anecdote, it seems the kid "who never trust themselves to take a leap of faith" would have an understanding of the universe far superior to those who choose to jump. For instance, they would comprehend physics and neurology. ("THeir next question is invaribly why does is get bent and turn blue?")
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blaze2
The Witness
Registered: 12/20/02
Posts: 1,883
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Last seen: 11 years, 8 months
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kids simply repeat what they just heard and add why to the front there is nothing strange there. Have you ever spoken to a child stuck on the why question? Its alot like talking to fireworks, but usually the kids are better behaved. Peace
blaze2
-------------------- "Religion without science is blind, Science without religion is lame." Albert Einstein "peace is not maintained through force it is acheived through intelligence." Albert Einstein "Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one." Thomas Jefferson "To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical." --Thomas Jefferson
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
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Posts: 4,587
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Re: Honesty and the Arbitrary [Re: blaze2]
#5552895 - 04/24/06 09:34 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Edited by MushmanTheManic (04/24/06 09:37 PM)
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,954
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: Honesty and the Arbitrary [Re: Basilides]
#5552998 - 04/24/06 09:56 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Some are bound to sleep, others are bound to awaken.
Who was it that professed a belief that existence is a..ahem, dream? Certainly, not I.
For someone who rants and raves about pride like it's the best thing since sliced bread, and dismisses compassion as a weakness, there isn't much you can do to work with such unenlightened thinking.
Dismissed compassion as a weakness? Sorry to burst your bubble, but I've done no such thing. If I were truly against compassion as you mistakenly percieve, there are several things I wouldn't have done in history. As you and I are, for the most part, strangers to one another, I cannot offer you much evidence in contrary to your assertions - ad hoc, I refer you to several ratings I've recieved that serve as a record of just one thing I've done for another shroomerite. His name is Phycotron - feel free to ask. Why did I do it? Becuase I wanted to see his cats in safe hands; because I liked viewing pictures of his cats; because I love animals; because I am a rationally selfish egoist.
From what I've gathered, where the real confusion that others have about my ethics usually lies in my rational moderation of: compassion, love, respect, generosity, etc. I do not follow the oft-followed notion that such qualities should be given charitably to everyone at all times and at all expenses. No, I do so sparingly and very selectively, and in accordance with reason - not mere feelings [at least, in my better moments]. I give my respect, but only to those who earn it. I am compassionate to those who are innocent victims, but not to the morally guilty. I love my close ones who've earned such love and vice versa, and I do not prostitute such love to any person merely for having been born. Nor would I accept or be flattered by the love offered by one who charades it around to the point of cheapening it, making it as weak as the "thank you" offered a millionth time by the apologetic, submissive soul who seeks at all costs to evade any passionate confrontation. If there is one thing I give to all, it is the respect of 'tabula rasa', and the tentative judgment that they are a rational person - only because I value justice, and such benevolence is a species of justice.
Even in my materialist days I was never that hardcore, despite all the jaw-dropping things I did, such as burning a Bible to Marilyn Manson when I was in high shcool
Implications of me being viewed as a materialist still amuse me to this day. But if simply accepting the metaphysical objectivity of the material world - and recognizing material objects as a means of actualizing our potential makes me a materialist in your eyes, then..
-------------------- Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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