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OfflineRRRR
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The Impermanence of the Material
    #5971438 - 08/16/06 10:41 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I often find myself in total and utter awe how quickly we, as human beings, can be materially destroyed. We are fragile beings, yet we take on immense journeys. Academia, people spend years and thousands of dollars just to get a degree, just to start a new journey, your profession. Then perhaps another, family. Then the endless amount of hobbies you can partake in. Everything you've worked for can end, in the beginning, middle, or end.

I think the wise Carl puts it best:

"Ahh, physical fitness, whatever. You know, whatever. You do what you like to do, I do what I like to do, ok? 'Cause you're a sucker, you're being fed this line about how, like, you're going to live forever or whatever. You're going to die, someone will kill ya'. Someone will kill you with a knife. Make sure your abs are fricken ripped, you got some good guns. You wanna look good for when you get stabbed with a knife. Sorry, thats how it works." -Carl



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Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)


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OfflineDinahTheCat
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: RRRR]
    #5971460 - 08/16/06 10:46 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, well man is greedy; for with wealth comes power, and power with wealth.

Actually i think that may only aply to a minority of the wealthy upper class capitialists. But for with the rest of us, with all the work we kill ourselves with, being a slave at work for the majority of us, materialism seems one of the many coats of paint that help mask up the chilling truth of one's own existence.


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"Sanity is not statistical."



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OfflineNewbieS
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: DinahTheCat]
    #5971512 - 08/16/06 10:57 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

What else should we do but focus on advancement? I see what you mean though, it's like you're only living so long and then everything you did will just be a memory becuase you're no longer on this plane to continue.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: Newbie]
    #5971546 - 08/16/06 11:06 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i dont see what you mean. are you saying we shouldn't bother to take care of ourselves and strive for long term goals because we might not live to complete them?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: RRRR]
    #5971564 - 08/16/06 11:12 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Why does impermanence matter if you're living in the NOW?


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OfflineDinahTheCat
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: Newbie]
    #5971573 - 08/16/06 11:15 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I dont see the importance of advancement, since all this means is more oligarchies and tyrants. We should be more worried about how 204 years ago the world population stood at 1 billion, and now at 2006 we have hit 6 billion; with capitialists using surplus to fund their overgrowing capital and using land to primarly benefit themselves instead of feeding the starved, soon shall our existence take a final blow upon the hour of devastation.


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"Sanity is not statistical."



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OfflineDeviate
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: DinahTheCat]
    #5971582 - 08/16/06 11:16 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

seeing to it that everyone was fed would be advancement.


Edited by Deviate (08/16/06 11:17 PM)


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OfflineFractalated
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: Silversoul]
    #5971593 - 08/16/06 11:19 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Why does impermanence matter if you're living in the NOW?




Even if you're living in the NOW, you can still become attached to various stimuli and averse to others. When you gain a deep understanding of impermanence, then you simply no longer have those sort of sensory strivings, and thus suffering is reduced if not eliminated.

Simply living in the NOW doesn't liberate you from suffering.


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"Now that the principalities and the powers stockpile weapons of mass destruction, contaminate the earth with their feverish industry, release floods of images to trigger insatiable desires, treat animals and humans as commodities and functions of a market, the devil must be grinning from ear to ear."


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OfflineDinahTheCat
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: Deviate]
    #5971609 - 08/16/06 11:25 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Yes in socialism, i really dont mean to be rash, but really, the only way we can end starvation and terrible work and fragile wages would be giving capital to the people, yet it is impossible for this to be accomplished since the wealthy with power want to maintain their wealth and power, and they need the poor to be poor to be wealthy, they would rather there be an imbalance in distrubution. Only when a new age of mankind emerges where brethern are materialistically balanced and equal, and competition is ended by combination, shall man truly accomplish advancement, advancement in the human race by ending primitive instincts and social darwinism.


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"Sanity is not statistical."



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OfflineNewbieS
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: Deviate]
    #5971611 - 08/16/06 11:25 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

No, I'm arguing against that; saying that one would think we'd have that attitude but we have a natural will to enhance ourselves.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: DinahTheCat]
    #5971613 - 08/16/06 11:26 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DinahTheCat said:
I dont see the importance of advancement, since all this means is more oligarchies and tyrants. We should be more worried about how 204 years ago the world population stood at 1 billion, and now at 2006 we have hit 6 billion; with capitialists using surplus to fund their overgrowing capital and using land to primarly benefit themselves instead of feeding the starved, soon shall our existence take a final blow upon the hour of devastation.



There's no need to be so pessimistic about it. Capitalism was an improvement upon the feudal system that existed before it. The struggles that have come from it are growing pains that will take us to the next step in our cultural evolution. We can continue to move forward, but in order to get anywhere requires struggle. Evolution is based on the fact that some will not make it. It sucks, but in the end, we're all collectively better off. It's better that we endure the struggle for self-improvement than to rest on our laurels.


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OfflineDinahTheCat
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: Silversoul]
    #5971633 - 08/16/06 11:36 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

So "capitalism" justifies feudalistic systems by being "less greedy" or "power hungry/wealthy"? I think not, but i do believe in your theory of having to go through capitalism as an inevitable event in history to level to one better, but id rather see through it and read between the lines before believing the hype of "how much better off you are than you were before" and the covering up of how many suffer from its existence, hmmmm reminds me kind of Imperialistic Russia being overthrown leading into the USSR, alota things just "covered up" or "unknown or ignored by the public". I think the struggle for self-improvement should apply to everyone, since it seems today the self-improvement benefits less than it really should.


--------------------
"Sanity is not statistical."



Edited by DinahTheCat (08/16/06 11:38 PM)


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OfflineRRRR
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: Silversoul]
    #5971746 - 08/17/06 12:19 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Living NOW can be detrimental when taken to an extreme, just like anything else.

Would you not play Russian roulette for the thrill of NOW? Sure, there is a chance eventually you'll luck out, but who cares? You're living in the moment.


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Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)


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OfflineDinahTheCat
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: RRRR]
    #5971761 - 08/17/06 12:25 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

And that is exactally how we all have been acting, since we already have too much to worry about to worry for things that will affect others in the "future" generations. How selfish can one be to hog the harvest and pollute the lands to be rich in one generation, but to directly effect negatively the living conditions and standards of the people of the next generations?


--------------------
"Sanity is not statistical."



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Offlinebobjones
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: RRRR]
    #5971821 - 08/17/06 01:01 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i love that quote


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"Outside of a dog a book is a man's friend. Inside of a dog it's too dark to read"
-Groucho Marx


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OfflineDinahTheCat
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: bobjones]
    #5973143 - 08/17/06 02:45 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

hahah i like your grocho quote  :thumbup:


--------------------
"Sanity is not statistical."



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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: RRRR]
    #5973386 - 08/17/06 04:11 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I think what you're basically saying is that our lives have no meaning because we will die. Our lives and struggles are important to us, but ultimately they become worthless.

well, you've stumbled upon a question that is very hard to resolve with any certainty.. "The Paradox of the Absurd"

Why do we continue living if our lives have a limited purpose and are ultimately meaningless? Why not just kill ourselves? Well.. you haven't killed yourself so there must be a reason.

Of course, absurdism sort of requires that you accept death as an inescapable fact.. ( actually it's amazing how few people will truly admit this ).

oh, i might just be ranting though, what do you think?


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OfflineRRRR
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: vampirism]
    #5974102 - 08/17/06 07:50 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Well, I haven't taken it to that extreme, yet at least. I just feel that the impermanent nature of life is a deterrent to long term, complex goals.


--------------------
Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)


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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: Silversoul]
    #5974124 - 08/17/06 07:59 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Why does impermanence matter if you're living in the NOW?




:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :mushroom2: :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineRRRR
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: Icelander]
    #5974129 - 08/17/06 08:01 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Perhaps you'd like to join him too in a game of Russian roulette then?  :smirk:


--------------------
Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17:20-21 (New King James Version)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: RRRR]
    #5974162 - 08/17/06 08:16 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I am. Every day. I'm going to die and I don't have any idea which day and which choice will lead me to it. I do know though that one day I will get that bullet. And there is absolutely nothing I can do to prevent that. So I better not fret or I will spoil my time leading up to that eventual moment.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDinahTheCat
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: Icelander]
    #5974233 - 08/17/06 08:38 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

"So I better not fret or I will spoil my time leading up to that eventual moment." So your pretty much just saying, "Hey fuck em, fuck everyone, fuck everyone but me, ill be selfish so that ill enjoy the most i can before i die"....? Pretty much, your'e gonna live your life, like there's no tomorrow, right? IN THE MOMENT


--------------------
"Sanity is not statistical."



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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: DinahTheCat]
    #5978292 - 08/19/06 12:07 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

If that's what you think I said. :thumbup: :wink:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: RRRR]
    #5978520 - 08/19/06 01:45 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

humans experience tremendous psychological stress when they contemplate the impermanence of the material. This is due to an "optical illusion of conciousness" that causes us to identify the self with the material. In fact, we are only partly material. The true liberating joy of spiritual revelation consists in part of the certain knowledge that the non-physical part of us existed before this fleshy incarnation, and will exist for eterntities afterwards:

if we prepare our souls during our life experience. It is nescessary to identify fully with the spiritual being residing inside ourselves... this is the key to immortality. The more fully we identify with the fleeting and transient aspects of self, the more totally we experience obliteration at death. The spirit moves eternally. Move with it, move eternally.

Also, even in a transient life of uncertain duration, investing in ones own physical fitness is always a worthwhile investment. The body is one manifestation of our self-energy, one form of thought. By learning to unlock the deep potentials of the body, we train our mind and soul in ways that are invaluable and will serve us long after this body returns to dust.

In short: enjoy fully the pleasures of the material, but know always WHO IT IS that is doing the enjoying, namely, the immortal, nameless, unfathomable and oceanic self.

Peace


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: Moonshoe]
    #5978585 - 08/19/06 02:04 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i don't think that's the only way though. sure, there's some strange thing driving me at the core- i guess i might see it as my eternal spirit, but i'm fully satisfied by recognizing it as a physical part of me.

i used to freak out and my mind would go into a strange state when contemplating the impermanence, but not anymore. if anything, the impermanence is a liberator. it seems to me that most people sense something driving them and misattribute it to some divine entity or some such, but it's much more likely that it's something that developed in the human mind to enhance our survival. almost every day i'm surprised by how similar people are, how unoriginal they can be - and they rarely see it. But that charges me to pay attention to what is truly rare, and thus beautiful.

i think this basic idea of determining value is what gives me a solid foundation for living. it seems the spirit-body connection is pretty simple in a way- the body acts as a point to tie together all of our aspects. if something cannot be found in the body- i think it must be considered an external part of the environment, which might seem kind of arbitrary given our place within the environment. however, this small change can become very important in terms of our personal decision-making.


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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: DinahTheCat]
    #5981117 - 08/20/06 10:15 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

DinahTheCat said:
"So I better not fret or I will spoil my time leading up to that eventual moment." So your pretty much just saying, "Hey fuck em, fuck everyone, fuck everyone but me, ill be selfish so that ill enjoy the most i can before i die"....? Pretty much, your'e gonna live your life, like there's no tomorrow, right? IN THE MOMENT




How is not fretting about death linked to selfish living?  Are we only motivated to live a values-based life because we are worrying about dying? 

If the moment is ALL, why would we choose to say "fuck everyone"?  Why not live that moment in alignment with love, compassion and honesty?

When people know that their death is imminent, such as on a plane about to crash, they usually experience a frantic need to contact their loved ones, just to say "I love you" "Forgive me" "I forgive you" "You are wonderful."  Isn't this living as though there is no tomorrow?

Your conclusions make absolutely no sense.  :confused:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: Veritas]
    #5981163 - 08/20/06 10:53 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

conclusions never make sense.
gotta keep open to what's ongoing

stay fit for the joy of bouncing around
makes a good example too


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5981933 - 08/20/06 05:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

evolution is voluntary no matter if we advocate it or not

but I can see the point of pointless living, 'we're labeled as

one of those', 'here we come here we go and its over, to me this is a reflection of irrevelance that man kind has partooken, it all filters down to the basic roles the individuals assume,

yes man kind need to shun the irrelevant goals and have more relevant ones, to me sinking billions into a defense program that creates highly sophisticated bombs are insignificant goals, but we treat those who have such esteemed jobs as significant members of society,

I think more relevant goals are towards technology in general, curing disease, creating a system of equality for all of human kind, space, agriculture advancement, development of different forms of energy, things that make earth, human living less complicated, also more and more automation to eliminate mindless tasks, to free our time to more significant goals, yeah drop alot of the religious and political dogma, such is a complete waste of energy


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OfflineDinahTheCat
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: capliberty]
    #5991069 - 08/23/06 09:51 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I only wish the bourgeoisie cared less about the "material" and put their money into investments that contribute less to themselves but more to mankind in general, as in helping "solve" world poverty or hunger, as well as the things capL mentioned above such as alt. engergy.


--------------------
"Sanity is not statistical."



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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: DinahTheCat]
    #5991170 - 08/23/06 10:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

why not look to the poor as well? Self-ambition should not be underestimated. The only thing the rich have in excess is money, thats it. Good ideas don't come with money, nor does success.
It doesn't take an investment of money to significantly contribute to mankind either. It takes, above all, a genuine passion - everything else will follow.

We're all people, and I'm just tired of certain groups being singled out for not doing what they "should". Hell, plenty of rich people contribute plenty of money and there are a lot of philanthropists.

but oh no, if only the corrupt, materially posessed bourgeoisie did something! oh how humanity would be saved.

bull. There's a general and dangerous lack of apathy in the general populace, and it's all ego.


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OfflineDinahTheCat
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Re: The Impermanence of the Material [Re: vampirism]
    #5997483 - 08/25/06 09:23 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

And thats where we go wrong with primitive man, he has a need for ego.


--------------------
"Sanity is not statistical."



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