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Re: Unlearning through entheogens [Re: egghead1]
    #3891619 -

egghead1;
I think ego gets a bad rap,
a number of symptoms are collected and referrred toi collectively as ego but they don't really hold together without some investment:

- one of them is the illusion of the seamless movie of self (assembled to make sense out of what is happenning)
- a related one is the identification with any one of a vast number of masks we wear or roles we play.(from the coping repertoire - automatic suitability to circumstance responses)
- these are separate form the instinctual impulses of attraction and repulsion that are more part of basic life function. (which expand to fight or flight, hatred greed and delusion...)

are not all of the ego issues more healthfully regarded as part of the ox in the oxherding pix?


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Unlearning through entheogens [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3891643 -

Its a difficult topic is this slippery word 'ego'. It's  more of an attitude than a solid thing. Bad rap, maybe, but its an unhealthy attitude of mind that's in conflict with the heart. It must be transformed by taming the ox. You could kill a man and justify your actions, but the heart would never understand.....  :heart:

Its the same with stealing, lying, and all other negative actions, you can justify with attitude all you like, but your heart will never comply. Trust what your heart tells you, and learn to tame the mind, then the ego has no space to live..... :heart:


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: Unlearning through entheogens [Re: egghead1]
    #3891776 -

in my understanding, ego is composed of many attitudes and is a necessary and functional thing (discussed as series of citta in abhidhamma), the heart you speak of so poetically is also a confusing construct, especially as you portray it in opposition to ego.

simplify more accurately without blaming, and until it is more clear the middle way suffices nicely.

buddha declared three negative roots (hatred greed and delusion) only, and while they grow they entwine with the sticky "ego" system; the 3 negative roots are themselves the problem and not the ego itself. to work with them is like caring for a garden with your  :heart:.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Unlearning through entheogens [Re: egghead1]
    #3891815 -

Quote:
Why would it be impossible to realize what has to be done in the case of egolessness?


Please note I defined the ego as that-which-judges. If one doesn't attach values to one's life, one cannot improve for one does not see any negativity.

Quote:
Ego is the part of us that is always only thinking about ourselves. If we lose that then we cease to suffer becuase we stop ignoring 'others' and put their needs as just as important if not more important than our own, therby fullfilling your own happiness in putting others first.


Wouldn't that be running away from your own issues? Helping others is great, but helping others more than you help yourself isn't a healthy course of action. Balance is key, like I said.

Quote:
You no longer have to be to be so concerned with yourself which is wonderful.


If you can't be concerned with yourself, you're not living. You're fleeing.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Re: Unlearning through entheogens [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3891901 -

Alan Stone said:
Quote:
You no longer have to be to be so concerned with yourself which is wonderful.


If you can't be concerned with yourself, you're not living. You're fleeing.


well,
it is nice to lift one's head up and be unconcerned with petty things


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Unlearning through entheogens [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3891956 -

Hatred, Greed and delusion are all attitudes which cause us to suffer. Whatever you say negative attitudes are they cause us to suffer, and we know it. We feel it in our hearts, we all intrinsically know the difference between positive and negative actions and their direct result on our mental and emotional states, we all know that negativity breeds suffering.

When we cry, that is our heart begging for us to listen.

This sense of self, is the fixed point which all negative attitudes encircle. You said yourself that our enlightened nature is not a fixed state of cessation, and that's true, we need to relinquish that point around which we all encircle (the wheel of Samara). With the body we cease harmful action, with the mind we relinquish harmful thoughts, and with our speech we let go of harmful words, all these actions affect our hearts and minds deeply. When our hearts and minds are perfectly in tune and settled, we can rest, we are happy.

That's the middle way, tuning our hearts with our minds, not too tight, and not too loose, the middle way -- perfect harmony.

The heart is not a construct, its that soft spot inside all of us that's willing to open like a lotus to the pain and suffering and knows of the limitless connection to all beings.... :heart:



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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: Unlearning through entheogens [Re: egghead1]
    #3892420 -

attitude is constructed of citta, and the bad roots ( h & g & d ) are  merely components to citta (not quite attitude), the good roots are their opposites (love, generosity and clarity). some citta actually have no roots and some even have no karma  which technically means no pleasure and no pain are present- they are the karmic results(akusala - also means no accumulation either - no roots - roots give rise to karma).

citta is a buddhist term for mind moments, which will seem to string along like a rosary, or like a movie.
in the brain, they are the fleeting engrams (electrical patterns of gestalts). citta have inner components including sensory (signal) skanda, feeling (pain pleasure and neutral) and roots (mentioned above) etc.

I think what you mean by heart :heart: is the primary good root love, and all associations with that {including any citta recalled or spontaneous (citta components of sensation and feeling as well), and cultivated attitudes - which are citta sequences}.

sometimes i like to cut through what is getting muddled using eyebrows and the most consistent terms


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Re: Unlearning through entheogens [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3892468 -

sometimes i like to cut through what is getting muddled using eyebrows and the most consistent terms

agree muchly. especially with 'consistent terms'. I think maybe egghead is railing against a part of the Self which we all probably don't like, that part which is hard to control and gets out of hand, and which we should be in control of instead. but he refers to this part as 'ego', and other people have different ideas as to what 'ego' is defined as, which makes for some silly circular arguments.

Please, all, be aware of your unspoken assumptions about definitions.

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Re: Unlearning through entheogens [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3892748 -

Those painfully negative mindstates are our teachers, they tell us where we are holding back and where there is still space for development.

Controlled behaviour of body, speech and mind so we do'nt create any further problems for ourselves and others.

No going up against anything just tuning into the uncontrived naturalness of the heart...... :heart:


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: Unlearning through entheogens [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3892789 -

'citta is a buddhist term for mind moments, which will seem to string along like a rosary, or like a movie.'

I never heard the term 'mind moments' before but i really relate.  :heart:


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: Unlearning through entheogens [Re: egghead1]
    #3892969 -

check out abhidhamma
or abhidhamma sangaha
a good version of the book has 3 color fold out charts

it shows how you can compose any mind moment with:
a sense (chose one of 6)
a feeling (choose one of 3 - pain, pleasure or neutral - after karma)
a root (chose one 7 - 3 negative 3 positive and 1 akusala - karmic roots)
prompted or unprompted (associated from memory? not too clear)
etc.
etc.
examples are provided to help understand... but it is pretty thick going, You might want to do some vipassana to catch the glimpses.

jhanas and states are also visited in abhidhamma, but IMO the 800 year old document is a bit inconsistent beyond the normal citta and could be revised after I get enlightened.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

Edited by redgreenvines (03/09/05 02:13 PM)

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Re: Unlearning through entheogens [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3896599 -

Thanky you, :heart: i will certainly give it a look  :thumbup:


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!

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Re: Unlearning through entheogens [Re: dorkus]
    #3929915 -

there were and are ancient secret rituals at

root of many cultures which involve these

substances, agents.. agents of what? some sort

of illuminatingly blessed chaos.

the dalai lama is one cultural embassador who

is keenly & unabashedly interested in modern

brain changing techgnosis, such as bio&neuro-

feedback devices and brainwave entrainment

programs. he isn't in denial of what's next for

humans to decide to evolve better or not.

psilocybin mushroom can be moderately dosed

much easier by virtue of its form and

composition.

induces peak experiences during which one is

vulnerable to raw & unfiltered conscious

sensations which can be enjoyed as is or can be

used as a trance medium to allow for access to

rich stream of chaos and clarity by gradually

or rapidly disengaging you from your usually

social-conditioned selfs.

you can use the clear state as your very own

omni-directional reality design studio using

the equipment of your entire organism as

instrument

your very own brain becomes the instrument by

which you gradually recreate your life as you

truly desire it to be- the deconditioning

agents are devices which allow you to get a

glimpse of the one behind the curtain. your

Self behind the curtains of the many little

yous.. you are the ringmaster and the ring as

well as a significant portion of the audience.

an intimately shocking encounter with your own

bio-social psycho-spiritual designs.

and of course after coming out of a

deconditioning session, there's an automatic

period of reconditioning- which is where and

when you can apply the how to the sets and

settings to elicit what it is you desire to

integrate this time around... after that, then

it's up to you to plug your self into something

you love to do, like cultivating your self and

your realities according to your truest

desires.

whoa i wrote that? eh...'saiight

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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