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OfflineMixomatosis
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So you've been reading about spirituality...
    #3573708 - 01/03/05 01:41 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

...

ok, so let's say you just read the daodejing or the art of war or something. You've got all these great daoist ideals in your head and you can intellectually understand the wisdom of not fighting the natural tendency of the universe. But damn.. you keep making the same mistakes and your lifestyle hasn't changed at all. What's up with that? How do you think you can take all this really wise smart stuff out of your brain and apply it to your life? Why isn't a professor of asian philosophy a daoist, when he's got access to all these books daoists of the past never even knew existed?

With these books being so limited as far as bringing about change in an individual, what's the point in reading them?


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: So you've been reading about spirituality... [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3573789 - 01/03/05 02:09 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

To the prompting of many, I rented the movie Waking Life last night. I almost fell asleep ten minutes into it.

There were all these philosopher types babbling as if they weren't even listening to themselves. It was talk talk talk talk. I'd rather see a movie where people are acting out the principles discussed through experiences. That would've been more moving and inspiring for me anyway.

Here's what I have learned about your question. I was stuck in my head for years. An early awakening mentor of mine who kept throwing books at me also kept getting annoyed with my incessant questioning, doubt, and disbelief. She kept saying "Cindy, you have to stop intellectualizing this stuff and start experiencing it"

Whatever the fuck that was suppose to mean. How do you do that I wondered and there was just another hollow meaningless thought to think and question. Arggggggggg

Wayyyyyyy up the road from there, I met this far out chick who was telling me about emotional processing. She said, you can't think this stuff or you'll be stuck in your head and bogged down processing it all without it having any real meaning.

She suggested to just let it drop into my emotional body and to forget about it, don't think it, FEEL it. Difficult transition to make but I did start getting the hang of it. Things did noticeably change. Suddenly I was having newer experiences where I would be able to reflect back on something I read and dropped down and in and be able to go "aha, that's what it meant" This was happening with great frequency and what use to be lofty thoughts somewhere out there a part from me, started to become realized within me, by my experiences and became an ingrained part of me.

The other advantage is that the emotional body processes information more quickly because it doesn't have the analytical mind jamming up the gears. Your mind stays clear more often which allows more to pour through and things really quicken. Add that to information becoming more then just lofty concepts or aspirations out there somewhere or floating around in your head but actual experiential realizations, growth moves at a ten fold pace.

Well, just my fiddy cents on this.

Edit-typos galore


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (01/03/05 02:18 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: So you've been reading about spirituality... [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3574564 - 01/03/05 11:30 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Well I think jiggy already pretty much hit the nail on the head. People learn much faster from direct experience than from intellectualizing concepts. Like a college student who studies his ass off and graduates with a 4.0 GPA, is he really prepared for the field he studied just because he read a bunch of books and remembered some things? Not likely. It's going to take some hands-on job experience to really learn what's going on. The stuff read from books ends up being peripheral information at best.

The same applies to philosophy or spirituality. Besides, if you read something in a book and go "Hey that's great, let me apply this to my life!" you're nothing more than a mindless robot using other people's ideas to fill your own void of experience. Bible/Torah/Quran readers come to mind... New Age enthusiasts, too.

I haven't read a philosophy book my entire life. Almost all of them are garbage. Those books intellectualize things to the point that they're too complex to even convert the information to useful knowledge. The epitome of "mental masturbation." Reading a philosophy book, in the hopes of learning -- really learning -- is futile.

You don't have to read books to learn philosophy or spirituality. Just use your senses, observe the world around you. All the clues to knowledge are there. You can learn more from a walk in the park than from reading Plato or whatever.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: So you've been reading about spirituality... [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3574792 - 01/03/05 01:24 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

But my life is not the same since i became interested in taoism!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: So you've been reading about spirituality... [Re: ]
    #3574801 - 01/03/05 01:26 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

I haven't read a philosophy book my entire life. Almost all of them are garbage.




Errr!!!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: So you've been reading about spirituality... [Re: ]
    #3575468 - 01/03/05 05:47 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I haven't read a philosophy book my entire life.
ok, fair enough, but wait a minute..

Almost all of them are garbage.
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

let's go over this again.

I haven't read a philosophy book my entire life.
Ok, that is to say, you HAVE NEVER READ A PHILOSOPHY BOOK

and yet..
Almost all of them are garbage.
ok ok.. hmmmmmm WAIT A MINUTE


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: So you've been reading about spirituality... [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3577542 - 01/04/05 01:38 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Mixomatosis said:
I haven't read a philosophy book my entire life.
ok, fair enough, but wait a minute..

Almost all of them are garbage.
HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

let's go over this again.

I haven't read a philosophy book my entire life.
Ok, that is to say, you HAVE NEVER READ A PHILOSOPHY BOOK

and yet..
Almost all of them are garbage.
ok ok.. hmmmmmm WAIT A MINUTE




lol... literally


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OfflinePedM
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Re: So you've been reading about spirituality... [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3578101 - 01/04/05 04:08 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Mixomatosis..

>> But damn.. you keep making the same mistakes and your lifestyle hasn't changed at all. What's up with that? How do you think you can take all this really wise smart stuff out of your brain and apply it to your life?

A lot of people struggle with this, I think.

It is egoistic to become impatient or frustrated with ourself because we have not been able to affect real change in our mind or in our life through the wise words we have read. When we become impatient with ourself, we are demonstrating that we have set for ourselves a very high standard. If the expectations we have placed on ourself are so lofty, doesn't this tell us that we have a lofty view of our self as well? We think things like "I should be better than this", and we become disappointed that we are not. Why should we be better? Who are we trying to impress? When we are impatient with ourself, is it that we are eager to affect spiritual change in our life, or is it that we are craving the satisfaction that comes with becoming "better" than that we are?

This is the egotism that presents us with obstacles. The way to overcome it is to recognize that it's not an inadequacy within ourselves that presents us with obstacles, it's just another symptom of the problematic perspective we are trying to discard by reading spiritual literature in the first place.

Most importantly, we need to have patience with ourselves. Patience has tremendous transformative power. Patience with ourself destroys the basis of our self-importance, our preoccupation with becoming superior to what we are. When we are free of that preoccupation, there is space within our minds for powerful contemplation of the teachings we have received, and therefore greater potential for those new ideas to reach our heart where they can take root and affect lasting change in every aspect of our entire life. If we have no patience with ourself, we will be absolutely powerless to affect lasting change in our heart and mind. We could read ten thousand books by ten thousand great masters over the course of ten thousand years, and still we would be exactly the same as when we started. Above all other virtues, patience is most important. Acceptance is paramount.

As a monk I once knew put it so eloquently: "The best way to get where you're going is to start where you are."




Max Headroom..

>> I haven't read a philosophy book my entire life. Almost all of them are garbage.

This seems a bit narrow.


>> Those books intellectualize things to the point that they're too complex to even convert the information to useful knowledge. The epitome of "mental masturbation." Reading a philosophy book, in the hopes of learning -- really learning -- is futile.

>> You don't have to read books to learn philosophy or spirituality. Just use your senses, observe the world around you. All the clues to knowledge are there.

It's not enough simply to open up one's ears and continue looking around. While all the clues are in fact available for viewing, they remain hidden from us by our pre-existing judgements and our pre-existing disposition toward life and toward ourselves. People have become extremely habituated, and in habitual behavior there is very little room for new paradigms or new perspectives to trickle in. For many, it requires an applied effort in a certain direction, with a certain intent.

For some, a means of applying that effort is through the absorption of books about spirituality and philosophy. While you might find the dry, intellectual presentation of concepts found in philosophy books to be undesirable, others who are so intellectually inclined might find these books highly accessible and therefore tremendously inspiring.


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace


Edited by Ped (01/04/05 10:05 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: So you've been reading about spirituality... [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3578597 - 01/04/05 10:08 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

:rolleyes:

Allow me to correct myself: I've perused more than my fair share of philosophy books, but never read one from start to finish. All of the ones I've skimmed through were garbage. I can't make any judgements on books I haven't even glanced through, though.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: So you've been reading about spirituality... [Re: ]
    #3579230 - 01/04/05 01:56 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Read "Tao Te Ching". It is a short and to the point book about efficiancy.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: So you've been reading about spirituality... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3579250 - 01/04/05 02:00 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

You don't have to read books to learn philosophy or spirituality. Just use your senses, observe the world around you. All the clues to knowledge are there. You can learn more from a walk in the park than from reading Plato or whatever.

what's the difference between getting information from the 'real world' and from a book? I think there's just as much liklihood of actually internalizing the information in either case. like the park is more 'real' than a book. is it?

I think the real trick is in actually learning the information, and internalizing it


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: So you've been reading about spirituality... [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3580244 - 01/04/05 05:51 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

"To the prompting of many, I rented the movie Waking Life last night. I almost fell asleep ten minutes into it. "

wow.

:sad: :mad2: :eek:

i cant even explain what i feel about that


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: So you've been reading about spirituality... *DELETED* [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3580250 - 01/04/05 05:52 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by Moonshoe

Reason for deletion: wow i triple posted



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Everything I post is fiction.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: So you've been reading about spirituality... [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3580297 - 01/04/05 06:05 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

OK, now what the fuck is up whit the phrase "I almost fell asleep ten minutes into it." if i find it one more place on the internett I'm gonna go get wasted on some booze and something! he he i mean damn! i even dreamt that phrase! :eek:


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Disclaimer!?


Edited by Gomp (01/04/05 06:06 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: So you've been reading about spirituality... [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3581716 - 01/04/05 11:11 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

"what's the difference between getting information from the 'real world' and from a book?"

Let's see you build a computer using real world materials...let's see...we'll start with a lump of raw silicon...sand should do. Now let's start learning chip design from scratch by trial and error. You would never have a computer. Buy a few prefabricated parts and you can have one together in 30 minutes. These books have ideas that ARE prefabricated parts.


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OfflineZekebomb
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Re: So you've been reading about spirituality... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3581801 - 01/04/05 11:32 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Let's see you build a computer using real world materials...let's see...we'll start with a lump of raw silicon...sand should do.

but my point is that the information contained in a book is just as accessible as the information contained in the rustling leaves of the old knotted oak tree on an autumn day. are you saying that sand is more 'real' than silicon that has been processed (or whatever They do to make it into a chip)?

oak leaves : book description :: sand : prefab silicon chip

is that what you're saying? because I agree with you, if so. my point is that sand and silicon chips are equally 'real', and same with yadda yadda


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: So you've been reading about spirituality... [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3581878 - 01/04/05 11:56 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I am saying that trying to reinvent the wheel is ludicrous. You cannot get the Tao Te Ching from rustling leaves. It required centuries of thought by many people. (Lao Tzu never existed. He was many people over centuries)


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: So you've been reading about spirituality... [Re: Ped]
    #3581938 - 01/05/05 12:19 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

A lot of people struggle with this, I think.

I think so too, that's why I brought this up. What I see on this forum (and elsewhere)is a lot of people who's main, sometimes only, method to learn about the principles within, say, the daodejing is by reading. Only the books are easily accessible and lots of people "don't have the time" to seek out other methods of learning, ones that excercise more than just our intellect.

I know someone with a very powerful intellect who's features include a photographic memory, and though he can hold vast and whole ideas in his head, it's like the information is suspended within an iron safe somewhere inside his mind. He could explain how to live "well" but fails to let this knowledge come out of the box and into the rest of his life.

There are plenty of authors capable of doing the same thing. I remember in a previous discussion on this forum somebody mentioned that Alan Watts, for all his spiritual insights, was an unhappy alchoholic with a string of children he sired scattered across the continent.

So, things like this, and the fact that books like the daodejing are so widely read yet the masses are so widely.. unenlightened, makes me question the wisdom of using books as your source of learning about these kind of things.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: So you've been reading about spirituality... [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3582016 - 01/05/05 12:39 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I just hit quick reply this is to the general populous.

The original post was not about what you can know from reading spiritual or philosophical literature. It was about how does one go about integrating it so it becomes something more then something you read.

Of course, reading directions sure beats figuring something out by yourself as it saves time and frustration. Yet, there is something to be said for trial and error as you may make new discoveries in the process. For example, you don't follow the directions to uncle Jim's country cabin and discover a beautiful picnic spot by a lake as you made a wrong turn.

Of course, there is a lot we can learn from others experiences where it is not necessary to experience it for ourselves for it to have applicable meaning.

If I read on my bottle of bleach that mixing it with ammonia will result in hazardous gases, I don't need to experience it for myself for the information to have applicable meaning to me, in fact, I don't want too.

In many cases, we can be served just as well if not BETTER by the experiences of others. (I feel for the guy who learned the hard way but thank him)

I prefer to learn from others experiences if I can first. I also prefer to bring meaning into my life by generating some of my own hands on experiences of tests and trials.

The thing with philosophy that I mentioned was how its just a bunch of meaningless mental jabber without having an experience to relate it to.

look at the classic philosophical question;

Does the chair exist?

Who gives a fuck really. My life won't change much if it actually doesn't. If I want to play along, I can ask "what chair?" thbbbbbb

Mean while, the laundry is piling up on the damn chair that doesn't exist and I could've been washing it instead of whacking off in my head about the chair not existing.

Now, you can read about love all you want to, read what others have experienced and blah blah. Until you've experienced romantic love, the love of a parent for a child, the love of a soul mate, the love of a friend without condition, you don't know TOM even though you think you do because you read about it until YOU personally actually experience those concepts.

Is reading about Europe sufficient to understand its culture and day to day or if you would enjoy a visit, or is taking a 3 months vaca there really required to say, you understand the way of life in Europe and can make a fair opinion about it?

I just felt like I had to throw all of these considerations into the mix because it's not a black or white issue, the issue of written knowledge versus experience that is. Most written knowledge is about anothers experience and yes, we can learn a lot that is meaningful and applicable through it.

But written stuff that does not come from any ones actual experience is really meaningless until you can find a way to experience it to make it meaningful and then applicable.

It's like toying with the question, "what if the rock is yellow on some unknown planet in the universe?" I bet the people in the movie waking life could have spent 30 minutes on that one while thinking they are soo deep.

If I read someone took an astral trip to a planet made of yellow rock and found the beings living there didn't deal with depression, I want to read about it because I may decide to paint some walls yellow and put it my own test and experience it for myself.

I don't mean to knock what if questions and contemplation as a love a good mind whack off or better yet, a mind fuck where you and another are sharing the same mental trip. But what are they for? Why do we even have the ability to play with thoughts that go no where and experience mind fucks and blows?

I may be straying off topics now so I'll end it here.


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlineoceansize
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Re: So you've been reading about spirituality... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3582020 - 01/05/05 12:40 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

My thoughts as well.

If as much could be learned about spirituality from a walk outdoors as a book, we would have all been buddhas before we invented a written language.

Although, I would suggest to everyone in earshot to augment their daily routine with a walk outdoors.


--------------------
"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche



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