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Re: What is Ego? [Re: Frog]
    #3547878 -

I have relied on Yoga psychologies - both Patanjali's Ashtanga [Eight-Limbed] or Raja Yoga, and the Abhidharma [Abhidamma] Buddhist philosophy/psychology (as taught by Lama Anagarika Govinda)- for my working knowledge of mental phenomena, including 'Ahamkara' (Ego).

I stand with those who understand that there is Transcendence of the Ego, as spoken of by the religions and religious philosophies of the world. The defining of Ego will differ dramatically depending upon which side of this line one stands behind.

Former S&P poster, 'enter,' gave the book 'The Spirit of Yoga' to my Lady a while ago. On page 170 are these words with regard to Ego as it pertains to the veiling ignorance [Avidya] which causes us to misidentify the Real Self with the Ego:

"The five obstacles to happiness listed by Patanjali are:

AVIDYA - ignorance or wrong understanding, the root of all obstacles to happiness

ASMITA - egoism, the faulty identification of oneself with the instruments of the body or the mind

RAGA - attachment, desiring something that has given you pleasure before

DVESA - aversion, fear of things that experience tells you can be unpleasant

ABHINIESA - fear of death, the instinctive love of life and dread of death"

In Lama Govinda's 'Foundations of Tibetan Mysticism" he wrote:

"...Edwin Arnold's 'Light of Asia' ends with the words: 'The dewdrop slips into the shining sea.' If this beautiful simile is reversed, it would probably come nearer to the Buddhist conception of ultimate realization: it is not the drop that slips into the sea, but the sea that slips into the drop! The universe become conscious in the individual (but not vice versa), and it is in this process that completeness is achieved, in regard to which we neither can speak any more of 'individual' nor of 'universe'...'Selfhood' and 'universe' are only the 'inside' and 'outside' of the same illusion. The realization of completeness, however, has all the characteristics of universality, without presuming an external cosmos, and has all the characteristics of individual experience without presuming an ego-entity. The idea of the realization of completeness escapes the dualistic concepts of unity and plurality, of 'I' and 'not-I,' or whatever we may call the pairs of opposites, as long as we move on the plane of our empirical consciousness. It is an idea which is applicable to all planes of experience and existence, from the material to the highest spiritual, from the empirically given to the metaphysically sensed." (p.81-82)

The Buddhist definition must contain this 'process thought,' as between two apparent poles. This has greater utlity for me inasmuch as Patanjali treats the ego-sense, ahamkara 'as if' it were a 'thing' a 'substantial' or 'independent' entity that veils our True Self from Ourself (a true paradox or tautology). This is of course the crux of the difference between the Hindu Atman (True Self) and the Buddhist doctrine of Anatman or Anatta - No Self. People tend to confuse the Ego with a permanent spiritual 'entity' - a soul or spirit that is not GOD, but not the mind-body either. The Buddhist more profoundly sees the human as the 'earthen vessel' of Christian metaphor, IN WHICH the universe (or GOD) becomes conscious. The human 'pole' of this interface is Ego, but it cannot exist independently from the Ground, or Void, or Clear Light from which it emerges.

In another millennium, the world may find that Buddhist psychology better explicates the Biblical writings better than the Greek philosophical categories upon which its theology was built.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: What is Ego? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3547905 -

I don't pretend to understand perfectly what you wrote, but I have a "feeling" of the extent to which I so far understand, because of what you wrote, and because of that long, long quote I posted from that website earlier on this thread.

I'm really trying to understand what ego is. (I am not trying to take over this thread. However, it is a good opportunity to understand what ego is since it is entitled "what is ego".)

I think my mistake was in believing that the ego was Freud's categorization of it. Now I understand that ego is something that has been around for a long time, and Freud only cornered the psychology market on it.

What is ego? Is it "me" without anything else that happened to me? Me without the circumstance surrounding my youth, causing my pshychological impairments? Me without the circumstances of living life, with all its distractions of attaining wealth, success, etc.? Is it me, the spirit inside this physical incarnation?


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: What is Ego? [Re: Frog]
    #3547938 -

Actually, frog, it is the opposite. It is that which is NOT the "you" underneath. Ego is the false mask that we each wear. Underneath it is the true self, the "spirit inside this physical incarnation."

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Re: What is Ego? [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3547943 -

Thanks, Jacques.  Perfect.  I think I "got it" now.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: What is Ego? [Re: Frog]
    #3548010 -

Any time... feel free to PM me if you want to chat about it more; it's one of my favorite subjects of discussion. :smile:

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Re: What is Ego? [Re: Frog]
    #3549424 -

Sorry Frog, I was not trying to be complicated. This issue of ego was handled in all of its paradox and complexity by Indian philosophers of antiquity. Their sophistication exceeded the Greeks (including the Sophists :wink: ). The issues are relevant to every generation of human being who desires to know what is Real, what is True. What am I? What occurs at death? What is Eternal Life? Am I deceiving myself to assuage fear? If death is just unconsciousness, why fear it - we don't fear deep sleep - do we intuit 'something else' in death? Are we anticipating horrors, hells, bardos, rebirth? Are we simply afraid to allow ourselves to relax into a belief in 'pie-in-the-sky-when-we-die' because it's too simplistic, or because it's too good to be true or because a simpleton's belief may be a false belief and we better get real disciplined in this life for the Big Moment?

Ego is one's perspective. It can expand (transcend) itself in selflessness, or it can constrict itself in complete selfishness. A humble Ego manifests the Universal while a proud Ego manifests the individual. Love requires humility, selfishness is arrogant. Love is about giving, selfishness is about getting. Love is about Freedom, selfishness is about bondage/attachment/oppression.

All  I Know at this point of life is that we must BE Compassionate to ourselves, to others, to non-human creatures, to the biosphere. Compassionate is the Way to BE.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: What is Ego? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #3550273 -

I think there's a lot more to this ego thing than meets the eye.

Is it correct to say that one becomes "ego-less" when one loses selfishness and arrogance and becomes compassionate? One does not want to become completely ego-less, do we? Don't we need ego to a certain degree, to become successful, or to avoid starving to death?

Isn't it better to say that we can discipline our egos?


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: What is Ego? [Re: Frog]
    #3551218 -

Yes...to both. On one occasion my ego and all that it entails was lost. Only radiant light and "Unbearable Compassion" remained - an Infinite expanse of those qualities. When 'It' receded, what was an Infinite Expanse became an Utterly Intense feeling of the Same in my Heart Center (Because 'I' - Mark - existed again, or rather, Mark's awareness of Mark returned. The Infinite had become a Jewel in the Lotus of my Heart. 30 years later I wear a ring and a bracelet with the Great Mantra to manifest the Experience to others. The complete loss of individual identity (ego) was like the Sea of Existence - the veil - parting, to allow me to be Truly Aware. I hope that death brings a similar state.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: What is Ego? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6510982 -

Quote:
WARNING!
The last post in this topic is more than 30 days old! (exactly 763 days)
Please only post a reply if it is truly relevant!!



Thats ego.

:tongue2:


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The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.

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Re: What is Ego? [Re: Sinbad]
    #6511431 -

Quote:
Ego (spirituality)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search

For the ego in psychology, especially Freud and Jung's concept of ego, see ego, super-ego, and id. For other meanings see Ego.

In spirituality, and especially nondual, mystical and eastern meditative traditions, the human being is often conceived as being in the illusion of individual existence, and separateness from other aspects of creation. This "sense of doership" or sense of individual existence is that part which believes it is the human being, and believes it must fight for itself in the world, is ultimately unaware and unconscious of its own true nature. The ego is often associated with mind and the sense of time, which compulsively thinks in order to be assured of its future existence, rather than simply knowing its own self and the present.

The spiritual goal of many traditions involves the dissolving of the ego, allowing self-knowledge of ones own true nature to become experienced and enacted in the world. This is variously known as Enlightenment, Nirvana, Presence, and the "Here and Now".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ego_%28spirituality%29

I didn't know aspects of the mind could just dissolve-- it sounds like a superstition to me.


--------------------


"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

Edited by FrenchSocialist (01/30/07 08:03 AM)

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Re: What is Ego? [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6512279 -

The ego to me are the attachments I have formed during the experiences of my life. My ego is created by the ideas I have and have concluded, the memories that serve me, the emotions I have felt, and my judgments and perceptions based on all three of those things that have accumulated over the years.

My ego is a prison for my true self, and a prison for all within their own confines. When you relinquish your attachments you give in to being. When you are, there is no ego to worry about.

I think ego loss is coming to the understanding that there is no true "I", because what is actually us is a compilation of things that are no more. We are here now. Be ego free. Be without being "I" or "me".


--------------------
"You must be the change you want to see in the world." - The trip of a Life Time.

Indra's Net - There is an endless net of threads throughout the universe. The horizontal threads are in space. The vertical threads in time. At every crossing of threads there is an individual. And every individual is a crystal bead. The great light of absolute being illuminates and penetrates every crystal being, And every crystal being reflects not only the light from every other crystal in the net, But also every reflection of every reflection throughout the universe.

-cK

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Re: What is Ego? [Re: ck10n3]
    #6512324 -

Quote:
ck10n3 said: there is no true "I"


There is one true "I".  Everything is "I".  You are "I".  You are everything. :yinyang:

Quote:
ck10n3 said: Be without being "I" or "me"


Be "I".  Be everything.  Be.  Soy = I am.

:levitate:  BE!  :levitate:


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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Re: What is Ego? [Re: Sinbad]
    #6512884 -

The ego is your 'point' of view.

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Re: What is Ego? [Re: SoY]
    #6512958 -

SoY said:
Quote:
ck10n3 said: there is no true "I"


There is one true "I".  Everything is "I".  You are "I".  You are everything. :yinyang:

Quote:
ck10n3 said: Be without being "I" or "me"


Be "I".  Be everything.  Be.  Soy = I am.

:levitate:  BE!  :levitate:


Yeah, yeah, that is what I meant. But I was shooting for a common definition of "I", which means the self as singular, ya know?

Everything = I. Yes. Just trying to emphasize that there is no "I" that is just itself.


--------------------
"You must be the change you want to see in the world." - The trip of a Life Time.

Indra's Net - There is an endless net of threads throughout the universe. The horizontal threads are in space. The vertical threads in time. At every crossing of threads there is an individual. And every individual is a crystal bead. The great light of absolute being illuminates and penetrates every crystal being, And every crystal being reflects not only the light from every other crystal in the net, But also every reflection of every reflection throughout the universe.

-cK

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Re: What is Ego? [Re: ck10n3]
    #6514884 -

It sounds like you are just making up your own definitions at this point, and that makes it difficult to have a meaningful conversation with you.

However based on what you said the ego still sounds like something supernatural. What do you mean by "true self" exactly? And how exactly do people just get rid of it? A lot of that sounds like magical thinking. And given some of the traits you ascribe to the concept of ego, why exactly would I want to get rid of it--memories, emotions, judgments and perceptions are what make an individual unique. Such things are the basis for our history, our relationships, and our ability to feel empathy. You shouldn't sacrifice real things for spiritual concepts.


--------------------


"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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Re: What is Ego? [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6514906 -

Quote:
frenchsocialist said:
It sounds like you are just making up your own definitions at this point, and that makes it difficult to have a meaningful conversation with you.

However based on what you said the ego still sounds like something supernatural. What do you mean by "true self" exactly? And how exactly do people just get rid of it? A lot of that sounds like magical thinking. And given some of the traits you ascribe to the concept of ego, why exactly would I want to get rid of it--memories, emotions, judgments and perceptions are what make an individual unique. Such things are the basis for our history, our relationships, and our ability to feel empathy. You shouldn't sacrifice real things for spiritual concepts.


:rolleyes:  Hmmmmmm.........................


--------------------

"The choiceless truth of who you are is revealed to be permanently here permeating everything. Not a thing and not separate from anything."--Gaganji
"Yesterday is but today's memory and tomorrow is today's dream."
"My karma ran over my dogma!"

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Re: What is Ego? [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6515152 -

FrenchSocialist said:
It sounds like you are just making up your own definitions at this point, and that makes it difficult to have a meaningful conversation with you.

However based on what you said the ego still sounds like something supernatural. What do you mean by "true self" exactly? And how exactly do people just get rid of it? A lot of that sounds like magical thinking. And given some of the traits you ascribe to the concept of ego, why exactly would I want to get rid of it--memories, emotions, judgments and perceptions are what make an individual unique. Such things are the basis for our history, our relationships, and our ability to feel empathy. You shouldn't sacrifice real things for spiritual concepts.


Well, the question at hand was "What is your view [of the ego]?" I feel I answered that question, but to answer you.

I do not know exactly how to get rid of it. It happened to me accidentally. It was nothing I was looking for. I ate some mushrooms if you want to know the truth and the whole story is in my signature.

Now, I do think that the experience is valid even if I was on drugs. What happened still happened and I remember it quite vividly as if I were not on any drugs at all. I woke up fairly sober. I went and researched if anyone else had had similar experiences, and what I found astonished me. I found tons of experiences, I found tons of things that surrounded certain goals in religions, and I found my true self. I am undoubtedly going to end up there at some point. When? I don't know.

When you see your true self, you realize that none of those things(memories, emotions, judgments and perceptions) make you unique at all. They anchor you to "I" when you are in fact something greater. Might sound like magical thinking, and it is, but it is real for me. We could go on and on about "real things." But, let's just stick to this experience.

Letting go of your attachments allows you to experience what religions call God. I don't know exactly how to do this. I had it happen, because I thought I was dieing, and I let myself. Well, obviously this is not going to be the path people seek as death is feared immensely. I learned that death is not something to fear though. It is too bad that Western culture has such a negative view on death. It causes so much fear and distance from "real things."

I don't blame your stance. I understand completely. I am just trying to tell you without the experience it is a very hard thing to describe and it is a very very hard concept for anyone without the experience to fathom. It is ineffable, which is also ineffable in itself. Can you imagine something you can't truly imagine? No, that just doesn't make sense. Well, neither does this and I am sorry it is not concrete and factual, but it is all up in my head and it has happened to me. If we had some sort of device where you could experience my thoughts and memories, maybe you could see it. You will face it when you die though, and if you are lucky before hand.

People are frightened of true spirituality. You want to know why? Because it requires giving up all the things you think you love and need and your desires and your every part of the "ego" or whatever it is that makes you, you. What makes you, you though is not those things. It might be what is considered you in this culture. Within "real things" you are no thing. You are everything. When you attach yourself you latch on to something and don't allow yourself to be free. Doubts and fear. That is all it causes. When you are free you have complete confidence.

I want to call it confidence, but it has a general connotation of smugness to it. You just know. You know that things are as they are. It isn't even a knowing though! It is just, ughhh this is so hard to describe, it is just infinity in the brain. You connect to the cosmic consciousness or whatever your term for it is, the oneness, the void, the nothingness, the everythingness, God. When you are this you are free.

The true self is you, when you are a part of everything! This concept just seems ridiculous to anyone who hasn't experienced it. I didn't believe in anything like this before it had happened. Now, if I wouldn't have found other people with similar experiences I may have just cast it out as psychotic hallucinations. Yet, here I am surrounded by people who understand where I am coming from. I really love these forums because of the diversity in opinions as well as people that share my own. It is very well rounded I think, and I wish there was a bit more diversity as I think some people scare off people with differing opinions.

So yeah man no one wants to die, but death is something you have to be at ease with. That's what it is. You have to be at ease. Nothing stirs you. You are wholly other. You are free and you mean the world to me.

Giving up things is not easy, and that is the understatement of understatements. We find it hard to share when we are young children. Our toys, our food, our clothes. And why? Because we feel we truly need these things. These material things that don't really have any meaning at all. This is just a very general thing too. Our greed has a seed rooted much deeper. We cannot even give our true love to anyone else. I don't really expect people to give up their "real things" and selves! No, this just sounds like crazy talk huh? That's all it takes to find your "true self," the self of selves! You must give up all that you associate with you, and when you do you realize something much greater. It is a relinquishing of impurity. You will find ultimate love, unity, and connectedness with the "true self." You are illuminated with it all. You will find every thing here, and it is all experienced at the sametime. It is all the same here. I want to say the rewards are reaped when you caress this sameness, but is it truly a reward? Sure, I guess. It seems like something so much more important than that though.

You are in touch with life. Life as its grandest scale. Life in its utmost glory. Life that is unfathomable. Life like you have never seen before! Life you make up. Life that is infinite and touching. Life that makes you feel all the emotions you think you have and infinite more simultaneously. Life that gives you memories but gives you all memories that have ever been, are, and will be. Life that has no judgments as everything is understood and at ease with. Life where there are no perceptions because every perception is seen. Life that is you while being life of all life. Life that is death and death that is life. Life of "real things." And Life of you as a sacrifice to become something that IS!

You are jaded me. And I am jaded you. When I see you will see. When you see I will see. When we see we will see.


--------------------
"You must be the change you want to see in the world." - The trip of a Life Time.

Indra's Net - There is an endless net of threads throughout the universe. The horizontal threads are in space. The vertical threads in time. At every crossing of threads there is an individual. And every individual is a crystal bead. The great light of absolute being illuminates and penetrates every crystal being, And every crystal being reflects not only the light from every other crystal in the net, But also every reflection of every reflection throughout the universe.

-cK

Edited by ck10n3 (01/31/07 04:18 AM)

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Re: What is Ego? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #6515225 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
This reminds me of a childhood TV program in which a mermaid under the sea had a goldfish which stayed in a glass fish bowl. The bowl was open making the water in the bowl connected to the entire ocean, but the goldfish remained within the bowl. When we physically die, our 'fishbowl,' the limits of our psychosomatic ego will shatter, and only the Ocean of Awareness will remain of us. Our spiritual goal of human development is to experience this reality while yet alive: 1) to dispel our fear of death and 2) to share this Truth with others from our genuine experience of this Truth, not mere words.


I really like that analogy. Mind if I use it? Spread the love.


--------------------
"You must be the change you want to see in the world." - The trip of a Life Time.

Indra's Net - There is an endless net of threads throughout the universe. The horizontal threads are in space. The vertical threads in time. At every crossing of threads there is an individual. And every individual is a crystal bead. The great light of absolute being illuminates and penetrates every crystal being, And every crystal being reflects not only the light from every other crystal in the net, But also every reflection of every reflection throughout the universe.

-cK

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Re: What is Ego? [Re: ck10n3]
    #6519936 -

Any response FrenchSocialist? I would like to hear what you think.


--------------------
"You must be the change you want to see in the world." - The trip of a Life Time.

Indra's Net - There is an endless net of threads throughout the universe. The horizontal threads are in space. The vertical threads in time. At every crossing of threads there is an individual. And every individual is a crystal bead. The great light of absolute being illuminates and penetrates every crystal being, And every crystal being reflects not only the light from every other crystal in the net, But also every reflection of every reflection throughout the universe.

-cK

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