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Re: Ego [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2634060 -

basically what fireworks said!

I think of the ego as also a tool we can use to make ourselves happier. If viewed one way we can see that we can USE the ego, because the ego tells us what we think is wrong, and then we feel an negative serperating emotion as a result.  it's like the man who rigns the church bells, the bell sound itself is the negative emotion while the guy ringing the bell is the ego.  the bell sounds off quite a lot in our lifetime, but are we listening???  when we listen our awareness increases and so our journey to a higher plane of thinking will start.

let's start listening....  :grin:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: Ego [Re: kaiowas]
    #2634524 -

yes, the ego can be a tool. but it can destroy you too if it is not balanced.

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Re: Ego [Re: ]
    #2634575 -

but ehh, i dont know man, how exactly are you percieving ego?

are you saying when a little kid goes to steal something, that feeling that tells him no its not right to do, its their ego? because i personally believe it is the ego that causes him to want to steal, and it is the heart that tells him it is wrong to steal. same understanding, but using different words to say same thing.

but your ego is good for survival i agree, for like keeping people that hurt you from hurting you again, because you will know better than to trust them when u know they can not be trusted, so you keep them at bay, even though you can still love them, you just cant let them hurt you again.

fuck me once, shame on you. fuck me twice, shame on me.

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Re: Ego [Re: ]
    #2634652 -

The ego isn't normatively bad or selfish, nor is the "heart" as you call capable of exerting a cathartic pull.

I will try to be as diplomatic as I can about this...

Alot of people are misunderstanding ego, heart, mind, self and defining it through social norms, not looking at the real science and psychology behind the issue. No, the heart doesn't think. No, there is no formal ego which is driving people to be selfish or not selfish. The "ego" does not exist as a selective, self aware independent "self." The human "self" could best be defined as having personalities...we have different understandings and personalities that shift and are brought up under different circumstances, while simultaenously being the same thing throughout in terms of basic cognitive functions.

There are varying levels of neuropathways which are accessed and active during diferent activies, in different environments, etc. There are also neural patterns which are always active, such as visual and auditory perception, memory synapses, etc. The self is a shifting and changing entity with a huge number of processes, a grand system constantly creating and blazing new neural networks.

The ego is an outdated freudian concept that relies heavily on psychodynamic forces which really do not exist, and which have be disproven.

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Re: Ego [Re: ]
    #2634675 -

"but your ego is good for survival i agree, for like keeping people that hurt you from hurting you again, because you will know better than to trust them when u know they can not be trusted, so you keep them at bay, even though you can still love them, you just cant let them hurt you again."


Again, you are oversimplfying a very complex set of networks that are interacting to produce the effect that you are allocating to "ego." On a basic level, the mechanisms involved in this process that you have described above are first,

Memory, in which the experiences of someone "cheating" on you are encoded.

and then

Cognitive Patterning
Through memory you recognize a pattern associated with one individual who you recognize as capable of furthering the pattern which you deem harmful.

etc, etc.

Even within those two small steps, lay a huge number of other processes that are occuring within the human mind. There is no ego that is driving the individual towards or away from some moral goodness. Remember, morals have always been defined by the societies living with them, and are a product of the collective will. Thus to assume that the 'ego' somehow is divinely connected to this sense of goodness or badness is incorrect. It is the individuals understanding of the social norms that causes them to conform or rebel against standing rules and regulations regarding behavoir, thought, etc.

You are yourself, no demon, or ego exists in you that isn't purely of yourself. No ego is moving in some direction other than as a result of thoughts, notions, understandings, experiences of you, the self.

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Re: Ego [Re: Lux]
    #2634680 -

The 'ego' is a word originally used by Freud to define the center of consciousness, but of course the concept of a separate and individual point of view is what the ego has meant at least since the ancient Hindu writings of the Rig Veda.

Since the ego is a non-substantial reality, a reality with no substance or extension in space-time, it is best discussed by way of metaphor. One metaphor that I like is the notion of the waves in the Ocean. The Ocean is the 'Ocean of consciousness' - infinite, and egos are like waves which are born of the ocean, grow in size, travel for a while, peak and dissipate (die). We can go through life thinking that we are individual waves, thus identifying ourselves with our particular form (I am 'me' and not you) or we can go through life increasingly disidentiying ourselves with the particularities of our 'distinct' wave-ego, and increasingly identifying ourselves with the Ocean. This is the ego-Self axis in Jungian terms, the human-God relationship in religion, the individuality-Universality paradox in philosophical terminology.

Jesus spoke in parables and metaphors for a very good reason. These soul-spirit or psychospiritual realities are non-quantifiable, non-material and quite abstract. We experience them, but they are 'Mercurial' - ungraspable as spilled Mercury to use an Alchemical metaphor. Certain personality types just can't tolerate such 'fuzzy' thinking - the Jungian 'Sensate' types - but no matter what, it is difficult to deny one's awareness of 'being.' Descartes said "I think, therefore I am," which identifies the Cartesian intellect as one's identity. More essentially than thought is 'Being,' the Name of GOD - GOD's Essence - the 'Ocean' - is called ''I AM" in the Bible. The "I AM THAT I AM" of the 'Eheh Asher Eyeh' is more accurately rendered "I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE'' in Hebrew, but the essence of Absolute Being - GOD (the Ocean) and our relative beings (waves) is still derivative of 'I' - 'Eye' - 'Aye.'

Paradox. I-not I. I-Thou. We are awareness. We seek awareness of our most Real Selves, not our mundane, relative selves (egos). We seek the Transcendental Ego - GOD. Nothing less is fulfilling but to be filled with GOD, til that which is filled is indistinguishable from That which fills us.

"The eye through which I see GOD, is the eye through which GOD sees me." - Meister Eckhardt


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Ego [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #2634713 -

word

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Re: Ego [Re: ParabolaChair]
    #2634772 -

Quote:
Again, you are oversimplfying a very complex set of networks that are interacting to produce the effect that you are allocating to "ego." On a basic level, the mechanisms involved in this process that you have described above are first,

Memory, in which the experiences of someone "cheating" on you are encoded.

and then

Cognitive Patterning
Through memory you recognize a pattern associated with one individual who you recognize as capable of furthering the pattern which you deem harmful.



how is this not triggered by fear? prove me wrong here.

its not me oversimplifying anything, its you overcomplicating everything.

Quote:
Even within those two small steps, lay a huge number of other processes that are occuring within the human mind. There is no ego that is driving the individual towards or away from some moral goodness. Remember, morals have always been defined by the societies living with them, and are a product of the collective will.


the ego does not drive one, NO. their choices do. and most of us go with aspects of the ego, instead of listen to our hearts, when i say heart i am talking about god, i am talking about LOVE. I understand humans go through shit that causes them to fear. But it is not like just because, for example, i have a run in with a group of teens with baggy pants and hats pimped to the side that beat my ass down that i should fear everyone with that appearance. This is a fear that needs to be delt with. To perceive through the eyes of love can help a person realize that not everyone is like that group that dresses in that manner. the only complex thing i see about this is how complex we make the fear or what the fear is arising from. the reason is clear, FEAR. the answer is also clear, LOVE.

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Re: Ego [Re: ]
    #2635042 -

I agree with you that a certain degree of "fear" causes certain misunderstandings within individuals. I'm disagreeing with your notion of an "ego" which you are somehow juxtaposing with "heart." The human being is self, there is no macro-level seperation within the "self" that facilitate "love" and "fear" in the human mind, they are all neuro-chemical states that interact and cause the "self" to exist as we experience it.

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Re: Ego [Re: ParabolaChair]
    #2635270 -

ooooooh, thats the problem rigth there man, you dont believe we have a spirit. my whole logic is based on that we are a spiritual being having a human experience.

and our spirit is pure love, we only get angry because we are reaching out for love, we only get down because we are in need of love. love is the answer to our problems.

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Re: Ego [Re: ParabolaChair]
    #2635343 -

"It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure." -- Albert Einstein

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Re: Ego [Re: Lux]
    #2635449 -

I agree, science isn't everything and meaning is very important...but in dealing with a concept such as an ego, why begin to investigate it unless you are interested in fully understanding and dissecting it...even it it proves to disprove...

In the same way there meaning is important, so the process through which we create those meanings, and the processes that drive that very creation...

imho :wink:

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Re: Ego [Re: ParabolaChair]
    #2635510 -

Our ego is the dualistic part of our mind that divides "me" from "them".

Other parts of the mind build a foundation of social structure, moral structure, emotions, and beliefs upon this rocky foundation of dualistic thought. I think most wrongs can be traced back to their dualistic roots.
"I killed him, because he broke my heart!"
"We cannot tolerate gay marriage because the homosexual agenda is to destroy the moral fabric and Christian upbringing of our society!"

Edit: To use Kottonmouth's example, the little kid wants to steal because they have nice things, and it is not fair that he does not have nice things, so it is OK for him to steal it.

Our other mental faculties can exist independent of ego, but generally, they are wholly subverted by, built upon, and catering to the ego.


--------------------
"I'm afraid of losing my obscurity. Genuineness only thrives in the dark. Like celery."
- Aldous Huxley

Edited by TinTree (05/04/04 01:25 AM)

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Re: Ego [Re: ParabolaChair]
    #2635568 -

Oh I'm not saying your view is wrong or right or not appreciated or not wanted....simply a quote that came to mind.

Let me add my understanding of ego...

To me, ego is that which has been instilled in us by our society. It has BECOME a part of ourselves and most of us remain 'asleep' functioning solely from this one, foreign aspect of ourselves. The internal dialogue, or that constant chattering in our mind is that foreign, instilled aspect of ourselves telling us how to act, almost mechanically. This internal dialogue is the product of the ego, in the way that I assign value to the word. It is what the average man would most readily associate with himself, with his being. People fail to notice, though, that it's really not even ourselves and once we shed that which has become a part of ourselves we see how it really is the only thing separating all of us, as TinTree and others have already described.

It is from functioning solely from this aspect of ourselves where we have very little responsibility over ourselves. No one can do anything to anyone, but the ego tells us otherwise through the internal dialogue. If you want to take more of a psychological approach to it you could basically say that it is the product of learning throughout your life how to react to certain actions from our society and surroundings.

While I'm at the Einstein quotes, here's one having to do with what I'm talking about: "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." -- Albert Einstein

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Re: Ego [Re: Lux]
    #2635895 -

i agree and disagree.  i think that we were born with egos and society simply fed it lots of feul, enough for it to generate its own fuel itself with what it has picked up.  so to speak.  other than that i agree that society is a reason why many of us have such huge egos blocking us from seeing reality.

Ever seen a small child with no prior influences of selfishness grab his toy from another child?  where did that come from?  If you ask the child nicely, "can so and so please play with your toy?", the kid will(i bet you.) be like "yeah :laugh:" cuz all they need is love.  I mean the kid only snags his toy away because he is scared he wont get it back, its fear.  treat that up with some love and BOOM. its all good.

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Re: Ego [Re: ]
    #2636247 -

Love IS the answer to everything.

Ego is simply Choice. Think of all the things that make you, you. The foods you like, the music you listen to, people you associate with, etc.. Everything you are came down to a choice at some point or another, even the way we present ourselves physically. Add all these choices thus far, and you have what you call an Ego.

The Ego is more or less, a fallacy. We identify with inanimate objects and ideas and conform to think "This is what I like, this is who I am." This is why a full blown Mushroom trip is too much for some people, it reduces ALL of us to the lowest common denominator: no Ego. Many people aren't comfortable with themselves enough to experience such an existance of one without Ego.

But the Ego is required for us, it maintains habit and ritual. If we never had an Ego, we would probably sit around staring slack jawed at the walls and drooling. The Ego has been placed here for our use, to identify with the world around us and use the Ego to expose how to make the world a better place. But people have become corrupt, and neglect the true reason we are here, which was mentioned by someone already: love.

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Re: Ego [Re: ParabolaChair]
    #2636250 -

ParabolaChair said:
I agree with you that a certain degree of "fear" causes certain misunderstandings within individuals. I'm disagreeing with your notion of an "ego" which you are somehow juxtaposing with "heart." The human being is self, there is no macro-level seperation within the "self" that facilitate "love" and "fear" in the human mind, they are all neuro-chemical states that interact and cause the "self" to exist as we experience it.


You're only speaking from a physical perspective. If you study your brain, and conciousness more for that matter, you'll see that we don't even know why those neuro-chemical states exist or interact the way they do. It's studies like this that Spirituality MUST be fused with Science, as they go hand in hand.

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Re: Ego [Re: EgoTripping]
    #2636326 -

Very well put explanation of the ego! I agree that it is important that we are born with an ego but I believe the struggle to be free of it, in the sense that we aren't slaves to it, is just as important. It's the only true freedom we have.

We are at a point where science and spirituality are starting to become one again. I like to think of spirituality as a science not yet understood.

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Re: Ego [Re: ]
    #2636355 -

So when a person has two separate thoughts on the same subject, and can't make up their mind, is this the ego arguing with itself or the ego arguing with some form of the self ? or maybe something entirely different altogether...

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Re: Ego [Re: DankBluntZ]
    #2636364 -

the ego to me is what puts the emotional emphasis that the rational mind picks up on the external world.  it is partly the source of how we react when situations arise.  our internal programming is dictated by what the ego wants to let in, and what the ego wants to ignore.  It is the guard of the sense of self so we can survive when needed.  our ego is not our essential nautre, that is, it isn't what we essentially are.  it's like a tool that we can use to either be happy, or be afraid.  kind of a lame description, but that's all I can think of right now :smile:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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