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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: hahaha iraq is such a mess [Re: Ravus]
    #3534603 -

Quote:
I think a lot more people would realize that other parties are much more in tune with their politics than the two main ones



...until they actually get into a position of power, of course.

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Re: hahaha iraq is such a mess [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3534612 -

Stalin wasnt a liberal. Stalin was a communist. The difference between a liberal and communist is just as wide as the difference between a republican and a neo-nazi. Dramatic hyperbole and hatred aside (you and KOTT), there is a difference.

Stalin killed liberals, btw. They were political enemies.

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Re: hahaha iraq is such a mess [Re: Vvellum]
    #3535520 -


Stalin wasnt a liberal. Stalin was a communist. The difference between a liberal and communist is just as wide as the difference between a republican and a neo-nazi. Dramatic hyperbole and hatred aside (you and KOTT), there is a difference.

Liberalism and communism are related in basic ideology(but not action). There is a consistent thread of worshipping the underdog and attacking the perceived "privileged" in both ideologies. I think liberalism and communism, while very different, both fall comfortably on the Left. One group actually has some valid points to bring up and is usually restrained in its actions. The other group fomented totalitarian dictatorships where millions were killed and countless people suffered.

My point was that every ideology everywhere, whether it falls on the Left Wing or the Right Wing, whether it is religious in nature, or even if it is completely removed from the accepted ideological spectrum, has the propensity for extremism, exaggeration, and perversion.

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Re: hahaha iraq is such a mess [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3535864 -

Quote:
Liberalism and communism are related in basic ideology(but not action). There is a consistent thread of worshipping the underdog and attacking the perceived "privileged" in both ideologies. I think liberalism and communism, while very different, both fall comfortably on the Left. One group actually has some valid points to bring up and is usually restrained in its actions. The other group fomented totalitarian dictatorships where millions were killed and countless people suffered.

My point was that every ideology everywhere, whether it falls on the Left Wing or the Right Wing, whether it is religious in nature, or even if it is completely removed from the accepted ideological spectrum, has the propensity for extremism, exaggeration, and perversion.



well, my point was stalin was not a liberal. Calling Stalin a liberal certainly feeds the flames of "extremism, exaggeration, and perversion" just like likening conservatives to nazis. practice what you preach, then people will take you seriously.

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Re: hahaha iraq is such a mess [Re: Vvellum]
    #3536459 -


well, my point was stalin was not a liberal.

Ok..ok...point taken.

Marx, Lenin, and Stalin were both notorious for hating the less "revolutionary" of their branch of thinking(i.e. the liberals). They labeled them "reformers" and thought they were just as bad as the ruling wealthy class because they weren't extreme enough. In that sense the communists were not liberals.

However, the basic tenets of extreme liberalism formed a basis for what communism became; such as the hating of any group or institution that is seen as having power, fawning over any group or institution that is perceived as being weak or oppressed, and wanting to use force to reorder the world into altruistim or utopia. In that sense, the core beliefs of some tyrants have been indelibly influenced by liberalism(even if it was somewhat perverted).

Edited by RandalFlagg (12/23/04 04:05 PM)

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Re: hahaha iraq is such a mess [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3537310 -

This looks interesting here:

"When I left office, there was a substantial amount of biological and chemical material unaccounted for. That is, at the end of the first Gulf War, we knew what he had. We knew what was destroyed in all the inspection processes and that was a lot. And then we bombed with the British for four days in 1998. We might have gotten it all; we might have gotten half of it; we might have gotten none of it. But we didn't know. So I thought it was prudent for the president to go to the U.N. and for the U.N. to say you got to let these inspectors in, and this time if you don't cooperate the penalty could be regime change, not just continued sanctions."
--Bill Clinton, July 22, 2003


A lot more here
http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000/000/003/236jmcbd.asp

Edited by Pali_Gap (12/23/04 08:09 PM)

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Re: hahaha iraq is such a mess [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #3537803 -

Quote:
Marx, Lenin, and Stalin were both notorious for hating the less "revolutionary" of their branch of thinking(i.e. the liberals). They labeled them "reformers" and thought they were just as bad as the ruling wealthy class because they weren't extreme enough. In that sense the communists were not liberals.




...and the leninists (and later) the stalinists slaughtered or jailed these counter-revoluationary liberals.

Quote:
However, the basic tenets of extreme liberalism formed a basis for what communism became; such as the hating of any group or institution that is seen as having power, fawning over any group or institution that is perceived as being weak or oppressed, and wanting to use force to reorder the world into altruistim or utopia. In that sense, the core beliefs of some tyrants have been indelibly influenced by liberalism(even if it was somewhat perverted).




...and historically, liberalism influenced and created the basis for most common strands of political and economic thought active in the world today. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism so, so what? and if one were to pervert an ideology to the extreme limits that stalin and his ilk did (as you have stated, if that is in fact even true), then why would liberalism be responsible for their insane views and actions? why would such a connection be worth mentioning?

KOTT asked what liberals slaughtered. you said stalin.
that's just retarded.

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Re: hahaha iraq is such a mess [Re: Vvellum]
    #3537983 -


...and historically, liberalism influenced and created the basis for most common strands of political and economic thought active in the world today.

There are two types of liberalism in my opinion. The first is the "classic liberalism" that seemed to be espoused by the founding fathers of the U.S.A. This basic philosophy was that people should be free, be able to elect their own representatives, and be able to pursue happiness.

The second type of liberalism is the sect of belief that focuses on being "progressive". Modern day liberalism as we know it falls into this branch. Strangely enough, modern day conservatism seems to be very in line with classic liberalism.


if one were to pervert an ideology to the extreme limits that stalin and his ilk did (as you have stated, if that is in fact even true), then why would liberalism be responsible for their insane views and actions? why would such a connection be worth mentioning?

Because the extreme branch of the liberal belief system spawned those tyrants and their ilk.


KOTT asked what liberals slaughtered. you said stalin.
that's just retarded.

Adolf Hitler's personal philosophy could be termed as being virulently imperialistic, xenophobic, and nationalistic. The root of a lot of his thought was his nationalism(his love of the German nation). Nationalism can be a good thing. There is nothing wrong with people loving their country. However, it can be a basis for something much more sinister and violent. Because nationalism spawned a lot of Hitler's beliefs and actions, calling him a "nationalist" and bringing up how nationalism affected him is perfectly acceptable. Using the same methodology when describing Stalin is just as apt in my opinion.

Stalin may not have been a classic "liberal", but his beliefs(or at least his rhetoric) was deeply rooted in the extreme liberal and "progressive" philosophy. Extreme liberalism is the basis for communism, just like extreme nationalism can be the basis for imperialism and conquest. So, Stalin was not a liberal, but some of his core political beliefs were based upon extreme liberal teachings.

I stand by my assertion that extreme liberalism spawned certain tyrants throughout world history, just like extreme conservatism spawned certain tyrants.

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Re: hahaha iraq is such a mess [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3538965 -

Replace conservative and liberal with PEOPLE and you would be correct.

People cause problems.

Every nation in the world is a mess. Humanity is a mess.

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Re: hahaha iraq is such a mess [Re: EonTan]
    #3539425 -

EonTan said:
Replace conservative and liberal with PEOPLE and you would be correct.

People cause problems.

Every nation in the world is a mess. Humanity is a mess.



Did anyone look at this link
http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000/000/003/236jmcbd.asp

Clinton is a Democrat.

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Re: hahaha iraq is such a mess [Re: KingOftheThing]
    #3539582 -

stupid bush, im glad this will be his vietnam

glad?

this attitude is why you guys keep losing.

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Re: hahaha iraq is such a mess [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3539753 -

lonestar2004 said:
its sad, i vote libertarian only if i know the Dem has no chance of winning.



Yeah, but because you and 10,000 other mother fuckers do that shit  you become the reason why the dem have no chance of winning. :thumbdown:


--------------------
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https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=42&Number=7342616&page=0&fpart=all


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Re: hahaha iraq is such a mess [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3539759 -

I hate our president

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Re: hahaha iraq is such a mess [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3539881 -

the dems had plenty of a chance of winning. W was the easiest-to-beat incumbent in years, and they blew it big time. W would be counting down his last days in office right now if the democrats hadn't fucked up as royally as they did. the kerry campaign was absolutely incompetent, nevermind the fact that the phony snob never should have gotten the nomination in the first place.

Edited by mushmaster (12/24/04 04:36 PM)

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Re: hahaha iraq is such a mess [Re: Lightningfractal]
    #3540121 -

well i hope me and the other 10,000 motherfuckers keep Michael Moore, Jesse Jackson, George soros, and other Dem's from winning.

the Dem's are in disarray, falling apart, and almost gone.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: hahaha iraq is such a mess [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3540161 -

i will never forget when Kerry was standing with a dead duck in his hand talking about guns, god, and fetuses. the red states knew he is full of shit.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama

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Re: hahaha iraq is such a mess [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3540196 -

i liked kerry's comments about crawling around on his belly hunting deer with his "trusty double barrel"

:rotfl:

did he really think he was fooling anyone?

and has he still not taken home the remington 11-87 shotgun he was given by united mine workers on labor day with which he gratuitously posed for the cameras?

has it dawned on him yet that he voted to ban that very gun 9 times while in the senate?

his attempts to fit in with the football world were pretty funny too. the "lambert field" comment was a good one.

kerry's a hip guy, no? he can snowboard (except when some "son of a bitch" secret service agent who would take a bullet for the guy gets in his way and knocks him down). "i don't fall" says he.

trying too hard mr. kerry. nobody likes a poseur.

what a phony.

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Re: hahaha iraq is such a mess [Re: ]
    #3594598 -

Jolting Islam Forward

Simply put, Iraq has become the focal point of the entire war on terrorism. That?s because President Bush?s strategy for winning the war, in addition to fighting al-Qaida terrorists wherever we can find them, is to spread democracy itself throughout the Middle East. More precisely, his strategy is to create conditions in that part of the world that will trigger an Islamic revolution whose objective is to jolt Islam itself from the Seventh Century into the Twenty-first Century. In other words, we want Islam to do what Judaism and Christianity did centuries ago: namely, to reconcile with the modern world. If this actually happens in Iraq, the President believes, it will crack political ice throughout the region and trigger a chain reaction that will spread to other countries. And as the President sees it, only if democracy takes root in the Middle East will the threat of terrorism subside and will it be possible to finally end the Israel-Palestinian conflict.

Now, you may be among those who believe that the President?s strategy is absurd ? that there isn?t the slightest possibility of Islam reconciling with the modern world and of democracy taking root in the Middle East. Or, you may believe that the strategy is plausible, but that the President has made an historic mistake by choosing Iraq as the first Mideast country in which to make it work. Or, you may believe that it can be done in Iraq, but that we have gone about it badly, for instance by not putting enough troops on the ground in that country to overcome the Baathists and the non-Iraqi terrorists who are fighting now to prevent the upcoming elections from succeeding.

In the end, history will prove you right ? or wrong. But as of today, we simply don?t know how things will turn out in Iraq. Read the last sentence again, slowly, because it really is the heart of the issue. We are in the middle of a war and no one ? absolutely no one ? knows whether we will win or lose it.

What we do know for sure is this: our chances for success in Iraq will be greater if we all pull together to make it work. But if we fail in Iraq, the catastrophe of our defeat will spread beyond the Middle East and around the world. It will be taken as a huge victory for al-Qaida, Hamas, Hezbollah and all those who support them, including Iran and North Korea, and the result will be a barrage of terrorist acts the likes of which the world has never seen, and which will place us all in mortal danger.

The Last Freedom

And this means you must choose. Is it more important to you that you be proven to have been right, or that our country survives? And yes, the choice really is this simple. The fact is, we have gone to war in Iraq and the President who set this course has just been re-elected. That?s why it isn?t your judgment now that matters ? history will settle that in its own time ? but your attitude. And I mean this in the deepest, most personal sense. In his great memoir of survival in a Nazi concentration camp, Man?s Search for Meaning, Viktor Frankl wrote that

?everything can be taken from a man but one thing: the last of the human freedoms ? to choose one?s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one?s own way.?

To put it bluntly, your attitude stinks. You are so determined to be proven right that you are unhelpful at best, and at worst you are actively working to insure our defeat.

I am not suggesting that all politics be stopped, or that our democracy be suspended for the duration. Rather, I am suggesting that you recognize how much we are all at risk, and that right now you focus your energy, your experience, and your expertise on helping us to win. So, if you are a Washington big-shot, instead of complaining about the Army?s shortage of truck armor, get on the phone to the Pentagon?s bureaucrats or to the manufacturers and push them to boost production however they can. Instead of prattling on and on about the insufficient number of US troops in Iraq, call your colleagues and counterparts in governments around the world and urge them to send as many soldiers as they can. Instead of whining that the upcoming elections in Iraq will be flawed ? which is obvious, for crying out loud ? do whatever you can to make these elections a visible success. And if you are just an ordinary American who believes the President has made a terrible mistake, keep in mind that while you have every right to demonstrate against the war these demonstrations play directly into our enemies? hands.

Demoralizing Our Enemies

Your help, or your behavior, could make all the difference, not just in terms of practical assistance but in broader terms of showing our adversaries around the world that right now, despite our different judgments, Americans are united. This by itself would almost do as much to demoralize our enemies as the accomplishments of our wonderful Soldiers and Marines in the back alleys of Mosul or Falluja.

Don?t tell me that you cannot change your attitude, or that it?s your right and solemn duty as the loyal opposition to oppose the President however you can. The War on Terrorism isn?t just another Bush Administration initiative, like the No Child Left Behind program or his proposal to reform the structure of Social Security. In this war, our very existence hangs in the balance, and national unity is more important than political advantage ? or personal ambition. We are all in this together, as Americans, and we must all do whatever we can to help make the President?s policy work, whether we like that policy or not.

And if you think that asking you to change your attitude is asking too much, give a moment?s thought to what we are asking of the Iraqi people. After all, the President?s entire policy rests on a change of attitude within the world of Islam itself. We are asking the Iraqis, and others in the Middle East, to abandon their tribal, if-you-win-then-I-must-lose way of thinking; to shift from oppressing other ethnic groups to co-operating with them; to move from totalitarianism to democracy. In short, we are asking them to make a mental leap from the Middle Ages to the modern world ? fast.

That?s a huge change in attitude to ask for, and the very least that you can do would be to set a good example.

Herbert E. Meyer served during the Reagan Administration as Special Assistant to the Director of Central Intelligence and Vice Chairman of the CIA's National Intelligence Council. His DVD on The Siege of Western Civilization has become an international best-seller.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/1/6/85747.shtml

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Re: hahaha iraq is such a mess [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3594629 -

"When I left office, there was a substantial amount of biological and chemical material unaccounted for. That is, at the end of the first Gulf War, we knew what he had. We knew what was destroyed in all the inspection processes and that was a lot. And then we bombed with the British for four days in 1998. We might have gotten it all; we might have gotten half of it; we might have gotten none of it. But we didn't know. So I thought it was prudent for the president to go to the U.N. and for the U.N. to say you got to let these inspectors in, and this time if you don't cooperate the penalty could be regime change, not just continued sanctions."
--Bill Clinton, July 22, 2003


A lot more here
http://www.weeklystandard.com/content/public/articles/000/000/003/236jmcbd.asp

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Re: hahaha iraq is such a mess [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3597160 -

lonestar2004 said:
i will never forget when Kerry was standing with a dead duck in his hand talking about guns, god, and fetuses. the red states knew he is full of shit.



It's not easy catering to a majority who are downright wrong in their beliefs.


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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