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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: Learyfan]
    #2705094 - 05/20/04 12:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

-----------------------------------------------------------
Learyfan said:
I'm really saying that even though fewer people have or will die in Iraq,  in the end this war will be seen as being in the same concentric circle on the disaster dart board as Vietnam.
------------------------------------------------------------


U r talking about American soldiers right? Because the number of Iraqi and Afgan civillians being killed is off the scale - oh and by the way they are real people, not just numbers.
And that's only so far -
The Iraqi people didn't like Sadam, but then a new dictatorship ain't gonna settle neither. There was never a real plan to instill democracy, the country is run by Bush's favoured arselickers.

I agree this is as bad a f**k up as Vietnam, worse really, because it's gettin hella messy and dumbass politicians should have got better at lying and cheating for their corporate stringpullers by now :grin:

All Sadam ever did wrong in the international political arena was stick up for his resources and a fair deal. Sure he's a complete c*nt (but so are all politicians) and remarkably akin to doh! Bush.

I don't see anyone rushing in to free up the people of the other 90 odd dictatorships in the world - I wonder why....hmmmmm
Maybe coz they decided to stick on the US gov'ment's payroll.

Bush would run the USA (likewise all Western leaders and their dominions) like Sadam ran Iraq if US citizens were not the golden goose. He needs your money to pay for his adventurism. The reason poor countries leaders get away with terrorising their people directly is because they are funded from outside their borders, by western governments.  They don't need their people to pay for them - they've got Bush and co.
....As long as they don't try to stand on their own feet like old Sadam......it's the classic protection racket on a global sale. Ever since the inception of global politics.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: CJay]
    #2706793 - 05/20/04 06:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

For the love of god read a book, buy some sense, and then start posting. The level of bullshit in your posts is astounding. How old are you?


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineTao
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: d33p]
    #2706896 - 05/20/04 06:17 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
For the love of god read a book, buy some sense, and then start posting. The level of bullshit in your posts is astounding. How old are you?




:lol: :lol:


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: d33p]
    #2706919 - 05/20/04 06:19 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
For the love of god read a book, buy some sense, and then start posting. The level of bullshit in your posts is astounding. How old are you?


:thumbup:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleCJay
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2707163 - 05/20/04 06:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

maybe you guys should try to read between the lines.

the big picture is out there :3rd_eye:

:mushroom2:


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Offlined33p
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: CJay]
    #2707174 - 05/20/04 06:47 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Fix your eyes then, i think you're seeing it a little blurry.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineFrankieJustTrypt
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: d33p]
    #2707324 - 05/20/04 07:03 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Please, include examples of "bullshit"... (Really, I'm curious which specific points you have problems with)

You too luv, (maybe tao but the laughing is somewhat ambiguous)

The complete lack of examples leads me to believe there is far too much emotion(and not enouigh fact) present in your posts.


--------------------
If you want a free lunch, you need to learn how to eat good advice.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: CJay]
    #2707481 - 05/20/04 07:24 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)


Yes it is as bad or probably worse than vietnam. bullshit And it will get a lot worse! Heh heh! Man it?s just ridiculous beyond belief! The brainwashing, lie constructing and apathy inducing arms of government have done a great job! Which is amazing. Bravo

Vietnam was obviously 2 superpowers jousting, using someone else?s home for a battlepitch. Not good. Very bad actually!

Iraq ?

Un un-elected ?president? bullshit (dictator of America, Afganistan and Iraq) bullshit
Fabricates a case for war bullshit
Against first Aphganistan bullshit , then Iraq bullshit
Using a poor and vague excuse as leverage, based on the activities of a small group of non-state endorsed people called terrorists who are not the agents of either of the governments of the countries attacked bullshit the taliban endorsed and harbored al queda .
It?s obvious for everyone to see and the largest anti-war demonstrations in the history of mankind are held, yet in our supposed democratic societies the people?s opinion is ignored and the lies defended by the old ?secrecy for your own protection? clause are continually fed to the people bullshit what lies? .
The UN is ignored un is bullshit (but in reverse of this is used as a diplomatic shield, when desired) Powell pulls out some (impressive) intelligence photos, that look like selection of blurred pics of a pickup truck in Arizona. Undoubtably these pictures show Saddam?s massive nuclear arsenal is real bullshit come on frankie are you serious?( ahem)
Yet despite this overwhelming ?evidence? which cannot actually be produced (ahem)??not one morsel of proof has surfaced bullshit . Military intelligence once again proves it?s own oxymoronity.

Sure the USA has committed one atrocious war after another like this, and so have most nation states when they are able to too. But the amazing thing about this is most people weren?t genuinely hoodwinked. Yet most people hid from the truth. And yet we just watch as politicians backtrack and say anything they want to cover their lies. Also amazing is the lack of memory of the news and media as to what was said before (ahem).

(Was everyone blind ? or just dying to be brainwashed because the truth is that the burgers and coke will stop flowing if a lie is not believed and the oilfields not secured. Fuck conscience, gotta keep the burgers flowing! Or is it just too much too believe the truth about politicians for most people. I mean like they said it would be the first war without civilian casualties bullshit , I know a lot of people who swallowed that! Unbelievable, don?t people know what war means? Ah well, soon it will be unavoidable and the truth will stare everyone in the face ? like it or not)

Not one of the war?s objective has been met bullshit . Not one of the reasons for these objectives was true bullshit .

Except of course for the objectives of the arms industries, oil industries, and Mr Bush?s personal agenda bullshit

And even those are failing rapidly!

However America is much more desperate than in the Veitnam days, they gotta get Iraq or they won?t be the richest country in the world much longer! That?s the issue. bullshit

It?s a total f**kup

As for Taoteching's comment ?at least the USA was attacked by the middle east? hmmmmmm

- the ?middle east? ? that?s a subcontinent made up of many states. Saying ?middle east? is like saying ?South America?,
? oh and any proof mate?
? And if it was terrorists, well I can?t imagine England declaring war and flying the bombers into Ireland because the IRA set off a bomb in London. It does not compute. Terrorist groups do not = countries (unless u r dumbass Bush of course)
? The Bin Ladens, George Bush?s old associates??hmmmmm this is starting to add up!



D-A-R-K

The state and it?s protective wings prevail again, making it easy for all good people to sleep at night.

50,000 people in the middle east die, but Bin Laden is never caught. Well directed revenge on your friend Bush!
Sadam shaves his beard, gets a new name and a house in Florida ? still in the club.

Everyone?s happy! Justice prevails!

its so bad i gave up and started skipping. I am now stoopider for having read that.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: d33p]
    #2707659 - 05/20/04 07:54 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Media Beat, July 27, 1994

30-Year Anniversary: Tonkin Gulf Lie Launched Vietnam War
By Jeff Cohen and Norman Solomon
Thirty years ago, it all seemed very clear.

"American Planes Hit North Vietnam After Second Attack on Our Destroyers; Move Taken to Halt New Aggression", announced a Washington Post headline on Aug. 5, 1964.

That same day, the front page of the New York Times reported: "President Johnson has ordered retaliatory action against gunboats and 'certain supporting facilities in North Vietnam' after renewed attacks against American destroyers in the Gulf of Tonkin."

But there was no "second attack" by North Vietnam -- no "renewed attacks against American destroyers." By reporting official claims as absolute truths, American journalism opened the floodgates for the bloody Vietnam War.

A pattern took hold: continuous government lies passed on by pliant mass media...leading to over 50,000 American deaths and millions of Vietnamese casualties.

The official story was that North Vietnamese torpedo boats launched an "unprovoked attack" against a U.S. destroyer on "routine patrol" in the Tonkin Gulf on Aug. 2 -- and that North Vietnamese PT boats followed up with a "deliberate attack" on a pair of U.S. ships two days later.

The truth was very different.

Rather than being on a routine patrol Aug. 2, the U.S. destroyer Maddox was actually engaged in aggressive intelligence-gathering maneuvers -- in sync with coordinated attacks on North Vietnam by the South Vietnamese navy and the Laotian air force.

"The day before, two attacks on North Vietnam...had taken place," writes scholar Daniel C. Hallin. Those assaults were "part of a campaign of increasing military pressure on the North that the United States had been pursuing since early 1964."

On the night of Aug. 4, the Pentagon proclaimed that a second attack by North Vietnamese PT boats had occurred earlier that day in the Tonkin Gulf -- a report cited by President Johnson as he went on national TV that evening to announce a momentous escalation in the war: air strikes against North Vietnam.

But Johnson ordered U.S. bombers to "retaliate" for a North Vietnamese torpedo attack that never happened.

Prior to the U.S. air strikes, top officials in Washington had reason to doubt that any Aug. 4 attack by North Vietnam had occurred. Cables from the U.S. task force commander in the Tonkin Gulf, Captain John J. Herrick, referred to "freak weather effects," "almost total darkness" and an "overeager sonarman" who "was hearing ship's own propeller beat."

One of the Navy pilots flying overhead that night was squadron commander James Stockdale, who gained fame later as a POW and then Ross Perot's vice presidential candidate. "I had the best seat in the house to watch that event," recalled Stockdale a few years ago, "and our destroyers were just shooting at phantom targets -- there were no PT boats there.... There was nothing there but black water and American fire power."

In 1965, Lyndon Johnson commented: "For all I know, our Navy was shooting at whales out there."

But Johnson's deceitful speech of Aug. 4, 1964, won accolades from editorial writers. The president, proclaimed the New York Times, "went to the American people last night with the somber facts." The Los Angeles Times urged Americans to "face the fact that the Communists, by their attack on American vessels in international waters, have themselves escalated the hostilities."

An exhaustive new book, The War Within: America's Battle Over Vietnam, begins with a dramatic account of the Tonkin Gulf incidents. In an interview, author Tom Wells told us that American media "described the air strikes that Johnson launched in response as merely `tit for tat' -- when in reality they reflected plans the administration had already drawn up for gradually increasing its overt military pressure against the North."

Why such inaccurate news coverage? Wells points to the media's "almost exclusive reliance on U.S. government officials as sources of information" -- as well as "reluctance to question official pronouncements on 'national security issues.'"

Daniel Hallin's classic book The "Uncensored War" observes that journalists had "a great deal of information available which contradicted the official account [of Tonkin Gulf events]; it simply wasn't used. The day before the first incident, Hanoi had protested the attacks on its territory by Laotian aircraft and South Vietnamese gunboats."

What's more, "It was generally known...that `covert' operations against North Vietnam, carried out by South Vietnamese forces with U.S. support and direction, had been going on for some time."

In the absence of independent journalism, the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution -- the closest thing there ever was to a declaration of war against North Vietnam -- sailed through Congress on Aug. 7. (Two courageous senators, Wayne Morse of Oregon and Ernest Gruening of Alaska, provided the only "no" votes.) The resolution authorized the president "to take all necessary measures to repel any armed attack against the forces of the United States and to prevent further aggression."

The rest is tragic history.

Nearly three decades later, during the Gulf War, columnist Sydney Schanberg warned journalists not to forget "our unquestioning chorus of agreeability when Lyndon Johnson bamboozled us with his fabrication of the Gulf of Tonkin incident."

Schanberg blamed not only the press but also "the apparent amnesia of the wider American public."

And he added: "We Americans are the ultimate innocents. We are forever desperate to believe that this time the government is telling us the truth."


http://www.fair.org/media-beat/940727.html


--------------------
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
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\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
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Don't vibe my harsh, bro.


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Offlined33p
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2707806 - 05/20/04 08:18 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

What about it baby? Are you supporting me or what?


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: d33p]
    #2707931 - 05/20/04 08:51 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Supporting you what?


--------------------
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2708156 - 05/20/04 10:03 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe he wants you to send him money.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2708302 - 05/20/04 10:48 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

That is one metric assload of bullshit for one post.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: d33p]
    #2709194 - 05/21/04 01:57 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

bullshit what lies? .


WMD?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: Xlea321]
    #2709960 - 05/21/04 05:36 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
bullshit what lies? .


WMD?



Please direct us to the proof it was a lie.

Link please.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2710573 - 05/21/04 12:24 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

There were no lies told about WMD?  :grin:

What proof would you deem adequate to believe Iraq didn't have WMD? You've avoided answering this question for the last 12 months, will we have any luck this time?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineTao
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: Xlea321]
    #2710853 - 05/21/04 01:46 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I've heard they have pink unicorns in Iraq too. We just haven't found any yet, but there's no proof theyre not there.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: Xlea321]
    #2711353 - 05/21/04 03:26 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

And as I've told you for each and every variation of your question....

Show me yours, I'll show you mine.

But at least this time you left the lie out. That's a start.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: Xlea321]
    #2711791 - 05/21/04 05:06 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Vietnam didnt start seeing a abundance of casualties intill about 1966 through 71. Iraq already has more deaths than the first 3 years of vietnam.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: Tao]
    #2711813 - 05/21/04 05:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

We just haven't found any yet, but there's no proof theyre not there.

Bush said they were. That's proof enough for some  :grin:


--------------------
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