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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinegermin8tionn8ion
enthusiast
Registered: 04/14/04
Posts: 399
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: CJay]
    #2715378 - 05/22/04 07:15 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

CJay said:
The Oil Baron Bush administration and Teflon Tony Blair's government told the public they had EVIDENCE. Evidence which must have been irrefutable, considering it was worthy to go charging into war over.
However this evidence could not be revealed to the public, apparemntly due to the sensitivity of the situation.




How would you interpret the following pieces of information-
Saddam gassed people with weapons that we sold to him
Saddam refused to demonstrate, even under threat of losing his entire regime, that he destroyed weapons.
Dissidents from Saddams regime were all telling us that he had the weapons.
How, exactly, would you read that? As a "Oh, Lets Trust Saddam" kind of thing?
Quote:


If the intelligence was that good, the evidence that sure, and considering the invading military has spy satellites that can apparently spot a needle ina hay stack, why did the invading troops pull these WMD straight out of their hidey-holes?




People lied to the CIA and other sources, they were hidden, any number of reasons. However, saying that bush LIED proves he did so willingly, and I'm sure you don'th ave "evidence" or "intelligence"that shows show, right?
Quote:


You go around a friend's house. He has a garden. In that garden there is no birdtable. However you insist there is a birdtable in the garden, to the point of extreme irritation. So you go out to look for yourself, you take 10 of your friends and camp out there for 2 weeks, searching high and low, and asking all the neighbours; but you cannot find a birdtable. However you insist it is there somewhere.




How about this. You sold your friend the bird table (what the heck is a bird table, do you mean bird bath?) a few years ago during his battle with the non-birds. You know for a fact, via pictoral evidence, that he has used the bird table. Then he says "Ok, you can come into my yard and verify I don't have it", and for about 1 month that works out OK, but he doesn't let you see inside his storage shed outside. Then he just kicks you out. A few years later you get REALLY upset about that and start to DEMAND he allow you back in. If he doesn't, you say , you'll kill his family and run him out of the house. Your friend still says "no". THAT is a much more apt analogy, no?


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: CJay]
    #2717630 - 05/23/04 09:28 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

It's no use Cjay, you're trying to tell the truth to someone devoted to dishonesty and lies. The truth would destroy his belief system.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: Xlea321]
    #2717703 - 05/23/04 10:36 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

:rolleyes:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineunbeliever
Yo Daddy!
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Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 5,158
Loc: Gallifrey
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2717865 - 05/23/04 11:51 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Then he just kicks you out.




Uh the inspectors were kicked out because the U.S. was using the weapons inspections as a cover for spying and espionage. That would be like saying your friend could come check for the bird table and then you find them in your bedroom sniffing your wife's underwear.


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: unbeliever]
    #2717925 - 05/23/04 12:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

:lol: :lol:

:thumbup:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: CJay]
    #2720649 - 05/23/04 11:31 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

CJay said:
I am accused of being childish.....

By the way, repeating everything I say and putting 'bullshit' after it is extremely childish, and actually allows you to retaliate without forming an argument.
You don't seem to be able to argue

and as an observation: you and lovedem seem to have incredibly ironic names
:wink:




Someone asked me to indentify the bullshit and i did. Nice job not bothering to read the thread...... Nice job buddy

And i refuse to even begin to read your reply on the bullshits until you edit it so that it is even slighty readable.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: unbeliever]
    #2720659 - 05/23/04 11:32 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

unbeliever said:
It is good to see though, that he can admit his mistakes and have a change of heart and mind.




Or maybe it is because they had eye witnesses saying Kerry had kill innocents in cold blood and he felt the only way to save himself would be to yet again flip flop his stance.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 years, 13 days
Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: germin8tionn8ion]
    #2721613 - 05/24/04 05:51 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Saddam refused to demonstrate, even under threat of losing his entire regime, that he destroyed weapons.




Wrong. Saddam allowed years of weapons inspections. He said he had destroyed all WMD and he allowed more inspections prior to the war. How could you have missed that?

Quote:

Dissidents from Saddams regime were all telling us that he had the weapons




That is not enough information to justify a war as the CIA would well know. Information from people who are known to hate Saddam is hardly the most unbiased or reliable information you will get.

Quote:

You know for a fact, via pictoral evidence, that he has used the bird table.




what pictorial evidence have we got that shows Saddam had WMDs?

Now what do you make of the following information?

i) Many sources from the intelligenc community have stated they were unhappy with the spin the government placed on the information provided to them.

ii) Cheney was quoting intel that supposedly linked Al-qaeda to Iraq ONE YEAR after the FBI had proved the intel was in fact incorrect.

iii) Powell stated that Iraq had been trying to purchase Uranium from Africa in his presentation to the UN. It was known by the CIA at the time of the presentation that this intel was also incorrect.

iv) In 2002 both Powell and Rice claimed that intel showed that Iraq had been effectively contained by sanctions, had no active WMD programs and was no longer a threat to anyone - How did this assesment change so dramatically? especially as it is obvious this first assesment was by far the most accurate.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 8 years, 6 months
Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: GazzBut]
    #2723993 - 05/24/04 07:08 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Wrong. Saddam allowed years of weapons inspections. He said he had destroyed all WMD and he allowed more inspections prior to the war. How could you have missed that?





OMG, you are so right. We should have just trusted saddam's word he destroyed them all. I mean that guy is as honest as christ, right?


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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InvisibleCJay
Dark Stranger
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Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 931
Loc: Riding a bassline
Re: Iraq isn't another Vietnam [Re: d33p]
    #2740729 - 05/28/04 10:12 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

You guys are funny :grin:

(addressing germin8ti8ion) It's not about trusting Saddam. Look at what you said -  I would have thought making millions selling arms to small-time crazy dictators is a pretty morally unnacceptable thing to do (and not very sensible, insane infact - except from an immediate $ poit of view....ahem - who really runs the USA and UK - CORPORATE INTEREST - EXON AND ARMSCORP). So perhaps the leaders of the USA (and the west in general) are equally untrustworthy, why not attack them? Why not attack anyone we don't trust, who cares about reality, forget the course of legality.
Go on they are untrustworthy.
Sadly trusting the untrustworthy seems to be the vogue in voting societies.
Amazing tho the UN could not be trusted, backed up and left to continue its work....it has been made impotent. Why was the UN set up in the first place? TO STOP MISCARRIAGES OF JUSTICE AND CRAZY WARS LIKE THIS HAPPENING.
But would the Bush administration respect the UN? Respect the code of ethics behind the UN? Let the UN marshall what was in the UN's juristiction?
Shame really
(By the way there are another 90 odd seriously untrustworthy dictators about, and one of them at least (N.Korea)openly brags about its nukes - why not invade all of them......oooh this is tricky.....real nukes.....scary....other copuntries where genocide occurs and human rights abuse occurs on a profound scale....ooohh...nah let's go for Saddam, there's a prize at stake far materially greater than truth or justice!)
Everyone is equal under the law - except Saddam

It suprises me the blind sheepish (or should I say lemming-like) belief you guys have in the political system and the leaders of the USA and UK.
Oh and D33P - by the way, just coz someone asked u to take my post and write bullshit after every sentance does not make it less childlike. Have you ever watched the behaviour of children? Hey do you do everything you are goaded into? (oh it's the old - he told me to! - I h8 to sound like a parent, but a cliff? would u?)Maybe you should think for yourself and approach discussion in a mature way. You say I'd be crap in court, well I'd like to see you try that trick - the defence would laugh your over-emotional ass out.
Do u not know how to discuss?
(btw I hit you back on every 'bullshit' yet u still haven't given me anything but 'bullshit' - are your hands bound? Or do you just have nothing to say? Can you not form an argument? Go on now I'm daring you - try to say something?)

It seems to me your arguments are based on personal vanity and intellectual put-downs rather than actual substance.

Bit frightening trying to discuss things that challenge your world view isn't it? Especially when you can't form a response. And why have you no response....hmmmmmmmm.....best to do like you say, don't read my posts! Too scary for you I guess.

Invading countries has never and will never bring peace. A fraction of the money could have been spent empowering the people, bombing with water, food, information, boosting morale, giving hope, empowering the people to make their own change.

Ok imagine during the American civil war, if a more technologically advanced nation had existed and intervened with its military might in an agressive heavy handed way, (saying to themselves - oh we have to bring peace to these poor, poor people!) The bitterness would have continued and the score not settled. The USA wouldn't exist and the place would be torn with dispute, controlled from affar by some distant corrupt power. Which in turn would be rebelled against in the name of freedom. Sometimes it's best to let people sort themselves out.
or......help them - wahey! yes help a strange word. Not invade, destroy, or make war. HELP. Evolution does happen by itself you know.
Oh and look at Iraq now - go on turn the TV on - don't forget over a year ago the mission was accomplished - this is the peace illegal invasion brings.
In fact the mission was almost accomplished. The mission was to occupy Iraq and control it. (The occupation has come off, but control eludes the megalomaniacs still). And the invaders would say anything or do anything to achieve that. Absolutely anything. No matter what despicableness it required. Trustworthy people lol
War never brings peace. Invasion never stabilises countries.
It is a phallacy.
The people of the world have and are having their trust abused by their leaders.

Oh yeh - and gazzbut is right. Condoleza and Colin were on telly less than a year before the invasion stating that Saddam was no threat and had no WMD. They said this decisively. I saw that.
And the tightest sanctions imaginable had been placed on Iraq for a decade before this, since the last invasion.....uuummm where did the WMD come from...? Did aliens come down and drop them off? :sun:



Edited by CJay (05/28/04 11:11 AM)


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