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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Chris Reeves: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #3359972 -

You guys still going at this in here?

Ped won't let me get the last word. :shrug:


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Chris Reeves: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Swami]
    #3360043 -

"I see. So if I set out to build a skyscraper and end up making a birdhouse in my backyard, then I am a "success"."

sucess is not a black/white yes/no thing. it exists on a scale. i would argue that if you try to build a skyskraper and build a birdhouse, you are still have one birdhouse more than if you had never tried at all . and thus you are more succesfull than someone who never tries anything.

Another example, we have two individuals, who are broke and unemployed, one says 'i will become a rich coprorate CEO" the other says "well , im fucked" and scratches his ass.

individual one goes out job hunting. He lands a job at mcdonalds. 30 years later he is the manager of one dinky mcdonalds outlet. He has failed in his quest to be a rich CEO. and yet, the hopeless individual #2 is still at home scratching his ass and trying not to lose his wellfare check.

who is more succesfull?

(disclaimer: success is relative )


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: Chris Reeves: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3360066 -

Hmmmm, let's see:

A. I can work at minimum wage and listen to abusive customers.

or

B. I can sit on my ass toking up and typing on the shroomery all day while collecting free handouts.

Hey! Wait a minute! B is what I am currently doing. Jealous? :yesnod:


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Chris Reeves: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Ped]
    #3360101 -

Ped, that picture in your signature would make a KILLER pinball table layout.

:smile:

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Re: Chris Reeves: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Swami]
    #3360941 -

Positive action follows positive thought. Negative action follows negative thought. I have seen this time and again in myself and in others. This is not religion or conjecture it is fact.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Chris Reeves: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3361440 -

if positive action follows negative thought
would that make the positive action, negative?

possible example?(?): "i did good for mankind, but i hate mankind".


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Disclaimer!?

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Re: Chris Reeves: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Gomp]
    #3362013 -

"Hey! Wait a minute! B is what I am currently doing. Jealous? "

hehe exactly man hence my disclaimer (sucess is relative) if that guy on the couch is happier (and he quite possibly is) hes more succesfull, in my oppinion. Similarly, the guy who built the birdhouse might be more happy than the guy who built the tower (especially if it turned out to be the world trade)


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: Chris Reeves: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3423254 -

Here is an interesting bit of news.

"It's been promised for years, but it's just become a reality. Stem cells taken from cord blood have enabled a paralysed woman in South Korea to walk again for the first time in 20 years. The details are on the Sydney Morning Herald

www.slashdot.org


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Swami]
    #3425855 -

you can make the affirmation as a result of setting yourself a goal. almost like a mantra, it will help you achieve your goal. there is nothing wrong in being positive.

however, some positivity is done without the sincere setting of a goal, no. in this case, it wouldn't matter the affirmation, because there is no sincerity behind it. (bear in mind, the affirmation here is not making the goal more attainable, except maybe as a mantra, and positive reinforcement to keep a person from giving up, but rather it is a symptom of having sincerely set a goal for oneself) An actual struggle needs to occur. there is a difference between the mentality that sincerely sets a goal, and that just wants things to change through meaningless prayer.

perhaps even meaningless prayer can help motivate a person, but this is not something i'd bet on.


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/opinion
.sean

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: entiformatie]
    #3425923 -

I'm glad this thread was pulled up again. I was thinking about Swami's initial post, and I was discussing it with someone, and he said, "what about the guy who was diagnosed with cancer but went on to win that (bike race in France) again?"

See, what if that American guy had decided that he would never ride again? What if he had decided to NOT think like Reeves, and give up before he ever even tried again?


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Frog]
    #3425929 -

Um, Tour de France? Or something like that?


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Frog]
    #3426496 -

Carl Sagan told the world he had beat cancer two weeks before his death. The point is the words have NO POWER. Reality cranks away not even noticing some slight monkey mouth-noises disturbing the air.

Lance Armstrong used powerful drugs to combat cancer, not affirmations. Cancer survival has not been linked to attitude.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Swami]
    #3427079 -

Lance Armstrong is super human. People with cancer are not supposed to push themselves, but he has done so repeatedly more than even the healthiest of people.

The words have some power. To you they don't. To the individual in question who does not want to quit, they are motivation.

What would you do, Swami, if you had a disease, and had a chance of living? Would you sit back and say "hey, I'm probably going to die... Hmmmm. I'll take my meds, I'll go about my shit, but yea... I'm gonna die." Makes more sense to be positive. Attitude plays a role in the quality of our life, no?

I don't even know who Carl Sagan is. So sue me.


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/opinion
.sean

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: entiformatie]
    #3427197 -

If affirmations are seen by an individual with terminal cancer to be an illusion, a copout, then isn't accepting death the best choice for quality of life?  Some people don't mind living a potential lie, detrimental or not.  Others like to give themselves the benifit of the doubt, that there is a good chance of death, but that can be overcome and life goes on.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was a negative correlation between a falsely positive outlook and recovery... The brain would be horribly stressed trying to deny the likelyhood of death.

EDIT: It is funny Sagan should be mentioned because he pointed out that Catholics who took their terminally ill loved ones to pray at the site of a relic actually caused spontanous recovery rates below chance probability. :frown:

These people were definately thinking positively, but in the process, making a tedious effort and journey that was a detriment to their health and chance of recovery. 


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"And we should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh." - Friedrich Nietzsche


Edited by oceansize (11/30/04 09:43 AM)

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Swami]
    #3427254 -

the affirmation is neither true nor false until the person dies. by the time the person dies, it is not the fulfillment of the affirmation that matters, but the struggle endured (Jihad, no?)


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/opinion
.sean

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Swami]
    #3427818 -

Swami said:
Carl Sagan told the world he had beat cancer two weeks before his death. The point is the words have NO POWER. Reality cranks away not even noticing some slight monkey mouth-noises disturbing the air.

Lance Armstrong used powerful drugs to combat cancer, not affirmations. Cancer survival has not been linked to attitude.


I agree that the words, in and of themselves, have no power. However, if people don't choose to believe in their power to overcome obstacles, they won't speak the words and then go out and do whatever they have to do to overcome the obstacles.

See, the words themselves don't matter. However, what we say affects our actions. If I repeatedly say, "I'm a failure. I'll never amount to anything.", then most likely I will be a failure and never amount to anything.

If I repeatedly say, "I am going to be successful at 'x', then I will most likely take actions that will lead me toward that success, regardless of whether I am ultimately successful or not. At least I tried.

I don't think Reeves spoke the words as if they were a magic charm. I think Reeves spoke those words in order to be positive and in order to take the steps he needed to take in an attempt to be successful.

The point is that even though he never walked, Reeves worked toward that goal. He ended up having a successful, full life, even though he never walked.


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The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Frog]
    #3428012 -

My only point was that Mr. Reeve's determination to walk WAS based on fact and science NOT completely on hope. In South Korea, where stem cell research is not against God, a paralyzed person was restored to the use of their limbs.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: entiformatie]
    #3428997 -

Lance Armstrong is super human. People with cancer are not supposed to push themselves, but he has done so repeatedly more than even the healthiest of people.
He was sick and got better. Some get sick and die. What is your point?

The words have some power. To you they don't. To the individual in question who does not want to quit, they are motivation.
What is spiritual about our primary survival instinct?

Makes more sense to be positive.
Positivity has not been shown to affect longevity.

Attitude plays a role in the quality of our life, no?
Attitude has an effect on your attitude; the cancer could care less.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Frog]
    #3429063 -

If I repeatedly say, "I am going to be successful at 'x', then I will most likely take actions that will lead me toward that success, regardless of whether I am ultimately successful or not. At least I tried.

Do you truly believe that I cannot find nearly unlimited numbers of people who have repeated their dreams over and over again and are not one step closer to achieving them?

Action is not linked to verbage.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Swami]
    #3429111 -

Quote:
Swami said:
He was sick and got better. Some get sick and die. What is your point?

What is spiritual about our primary survival instinct?

Positivity has not been shown to affect longevity.

Attitude has an effect on your attitude; the cancer could care less.



And Armstrong did not just get well, he pushed past the point most humans ever even try to attain (in whatever it is they do), with such a severe handicap, showing a large part of the population of people on this planet similarly afflicted, that even then can they struggle and succeed in what they will. (It illustrates the possibility, and makes it more real)

And I do find our primary survival instinct very spiritual. Each of our instincts is spiritual. No, not in some magickal hocuspocus way...

Positivity has not been shown to increasive longevity, but it certainly increases quality of life. Sorry, I can come with no logical idea as to why this is, but it has repeatedly shown that it can increase quality of life. Actually, without fail. (I am also entertaining the thought that there are some things which are so basic and fundamental than rather than be composed of logical reasons, they make up the building blocks that are used to come to other logical conclusions)

Your attitude when you deal with cancer definitely affects the cancer. SIn a pretty direct manner, do things that make you positive, lead to being positive, which leads to a lifestyle more likely to overcome aids. (I would like to state that stress increases cancer, but I'm not positive of this. I've definitely heard it though).

Yes, but if these people were not one step closer, then they made no effort. You have already admitted that Armstrong made steps, but that he was cut off before his dream was realized.

If what we should do was based on our success, we would never commit the mistakes that teach us how to be succesful.

Edited by entiformatie (11/30/04 05:47 PM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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