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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3351636 -

I sorrily can't see the 'bad' about affirming something positive to better a situation.
He got much refunds been donnated to better the situation of equaly disabled. That's fact, because this money goes into medical research and technical improvement.
So, literaly, his talkings were to get the other handicapped walk sooner.
If his life would have been longer, perhaps he would have been able to walk autonomously.

Not only that the own will is responsible for medical and scientifical improovement (by gathering financial founds), it is also important for self healing abilities.
And there's the point, placebos come into play. They are statistically confirmed, because they stem out of a logic of statistiks.
Think, you would not need placebos, if it is really everytime true, that the medical treatment works right, or not.
What is that, that influences the 'working' of a medicine in comparison to a placebo ?
The placebo was invented to see if the only mental affirmation 'getting a healingmedicine' is enough to 'better' physical illness.
Do a google about:placebo better health :smile:
First hit: http://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/bhcv2/bhcarticles.nsf/pages/Placebo_effect?OpenDocument

So there is no trap, no bad...there is only s?me misunderstood 'swami-agenada' :grin:


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3351849 -

This thread is a mental and emotional mess.
But it did stay relatively on track for a while and it captured lots of interest.

I no longer do positive affirmations because it is only adds to the mind, an illusory sense of self - in fact, it hardens the sense of self into a certainty. Anyone with some spiritual insight will see why this is not exactly a good thing.

I find it is better to first accept what is, for what it is, and then to let change flow out of this moment, without seperating myself from the moment and the motion by thinking unnecessary thoughts, regardless of whether or not these thoughts are labeled "positive" or "negative" (of course, who labels thoughts in this way?).

Ones thoughts do not directly alter objective reality, or produce any change by themselves, other than within the mind itself. Positive or negative affirmations will actually hamper one's efforts to produce real change, and they will also seperate oneself from the perception of reality. I do not require the repetition of phrases such as "I can play this guitar part" in order to actually play it, etc. etc. etc. These operations of the mind are actually draining my awareness, which is powering them, which means I am not as focused on my learning and practice of the part I intend to play.

Well-put, FG. Your insight is laser-sharp.  :thumbup:

Editor's note: if this thread had started with this fine analysis, it would have been unlikely to "strike any chords". There would have been little discussion and the thread would have died. Which approach is more "fun" and gets debate going? I like your synopsis as a closing argument and thus it fits perfectly here.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3352036 -

Dana Reeve is still in it for the long haul.

Dana Reeve is hot! After a respectful period of mourning, I am moving in for "the kill".  :heart:


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Swami]
    #3352136 -

!


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Anxiety is what you make it.

Edited by LunarEclipse (11/21/04 04:15 PM)

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #3352188 -

Editor's note: this thread is officially over.

Please don't post my picture. :shocked: I didn't think anyone would pick up on that.

Straight answer please: Though Dana my be too old for you, would you turn her down if she came on to you?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: fireworks_god]
    #3352412 -

I, too, used to be a strict adherent of positive-affirmations and positive-self-talk, for quite a long time.
I have travelled the same path of realization as you did in that particular aspect of Life as well.
The realization was, of course that such mind-activity was only strengthening the mind, the dysfunctional bond of addiction to noise - thinking.
Although it indeed did create apparent positive effects...  As such positivity is being operated from the dualistic mind, there was the downside.
The fundamental and unchanging self; Spacious-Awareness, which is silent and still and free of noise and thinking, was being abused by incessant energy-draining caused by the illusory mask-identification with the mind, giving energy to the rise of compulsive and neurotic thinking.. which then creates a myriad of it's own dysfunctions.

When one realizes that Totality and Nothingness are One and the Same, and is the fundamental root of Peace; such aforementioned practices that are born out of the mind-identified state, become clear that it is almost insanely backwards.

If there's any positive affirmations that I practice nowadays.. it's Stillness and Silence.

:wink:



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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Swami]
    #3356682 -

"I am going to walk again!"
Chris Reeve was purposely lying when he said that.


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3357036 -

i think the very last scene of the passion south park episode was the most hilarious moment on television, ever.

you know the one. with cartman... on the face.


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Viaggio]
    #3357089 -

>> Amazing that Ped knows more bout Reeve than what Chris clearly stated.

How have you gathered total understanding of Chris Reeve's intentions and perspective on life from just one of his statements? How do you know he didn't go home that evening and say to his wife "Gee, I shouldn't have said that in public. I mean, I know we're going to do everything we can to spur research into spinal cord injuries, but all things considered the odds aren't all that great." Maybe he was high on lorazepam. Nobody knows!

Chris Reeve's optimism afforded him a high quality of life, and enabled him to improve other's quality of life. That lends some value to keeping positive and optimistic.

But then again, you had never intended to suggest that optimism was useless. You were just stating the obvious, right? For no reason?


>> Never said meaningless, my Zen-centered brother. I said his affirmations did not work.

His affirmations did not enable him to walk again. That doesn't mean that they did not work. In fact, it was his positive outlook that enabled him to make such enormous contributions to research in the area. It allowed him to live a rich and full life. These are the wider implications of a positive outlook.


>> Let us all take a moment to set up impossible goals so that we can detract our energies from possible goals. That is more worthy, eh?

He could not have known whether or not his goal was an impossible one. It is safe to say that Chris Reeve was an intelligent enough person to understand that these injuries are almost impossible to overcome, and that he knew his chances of walking again were not higher simply because he had made the firm determination to do so.

How did Reeve's "impossible" goal detract from his energies in other areas? It didn't. If anything, it propelled him. In this way, his positive affirmations worked quite well for him. When speaking about positive outlook and optimism, whether or not he walked again is beside the point. A positive outlook has much wider implications than the context in which it was expressed.


>> Taking shots?

Your sparsely worded post did convey the impression that you thought less of Reeve's because of his "fluffy cloud" optimism. That was your "trap", to imply something offensive without being direct about it, and watching people react without having all the information. Why play games like this? Why not just make your point?

How are we to anticipate that you had no intention to comment on the wider implications of a positive outlook, that you meant to keep your comment confined only to the bare facts of Reeve's physical state? What is the purpose of creating a thread only to underline the obvious? Personally, when I come to read S&P, I don't approach new threads with expectation that they might be purposeless beyond semantical mind-games. I don't think anyone can be blamed for expecting that your post meant something more than it's words. And honestly, I think it's a little twisted to press people's buttons just to watch them jump. Was that not your intention with this thread? It sure seems that way. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.


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:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Chris Reeves: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Ped]
    #3357305 -

Swami:
this was a response to Swami not Ped.

"Can one not act without writing a mental script first?"

No. You make a mental script before every action. It is called formulating a plan of action.

"Goal-setting is not the same as affirming something like, "I am getting healthier every day." One can just get on the treadmill with no affirmations or mental chatter and receive identical benefits."

I hate the term "affirmations". It sounds very touchy-feely bullshit. I think Mr. Reeves' pronouncement of walking again was goal setting. I always set my goals a bit farther than what I acheive. Here is an example why: If one is shooting a wooden bow instinctively one picks a spot on the target and fires while keeping one's eye on the spot. The smaller the spot one picks, the smaller one's groups will likely be, even if none of the arrows hit that exact spot. Affirmations have nothing to do with it. Without setting a positive goal one will never step on to the treadmill. Positive actions are more likely to follow positive thoughts and visa versa.

Edited by Huehuecoyotl (11/13/04 07:53 PM)

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Re: Chris Reeves: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3357392 -

"Can one not act without writing a mental script first?"

No. You make a mental script before every action. It is called formulating a plan of action.

Really? If someone sticks you with a pin, do you start-up the self-dialogue, "Hey, that is a really sharp object there and it kind of hurts so I will yank my hand quickly away starting right now. I believe in my ability to stop the pain. I know I can do it! Here goes, I am pulling my hand away from the object."


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Chris Reeves: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Swami]
    #3357457 -

I dunno, Slimey...are you describing an action or reaction?


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"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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Re: Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Ped]
    #3357849 -

How are we to anticipate that you had no intention to comment on the wider implications of a positive outlook, that you meant to keep your comment confined only to the bare facts of Reeve's physical state? What is the purpose of creating a thread only to underline the obvious? Personally, when I come to read S&P, I don't approach new threads with expectation that they might be purposeless beyond semantical mind-games. I don't think anyone can be blamed for expecting that your post meant something more than it's words. And honestly, I think it's a little twisted to press people's buttons just to watch them jump. Was that not your intention with this thread? It sure seems that way. Please, correct me if I'm wrong.
The initial post was very succinct. Why complicate things? His positive enthusiasm, goal-setting and affirmation failed to help him achieve this particular goal. Tangential by-products, even though beneficial to others, do not demonstrate the power of visualizing and then manifesting a SPECIFIC result.

This is no different than my threads on how no one can demonstrate telekinesis or telepathy. 10 pages and tons of verbage later, the fact remains that no one can demonstrate these alleged talents.

His affirmations did not enable him to walk again. That doesn't mean that they did not work.
Standard shroomery double-speak. If something works, it works. If something doesn't work, it still works! :handth:


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Chris Reeves: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Swami]
    #3357853 -

Yes this formula exists even then. It just does not reach consciousness as it works in the more primitive regions of mind.
You can get consciousness about the process afterwards.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Chris Reeves: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Swami]
    #3357890 -

There is room for involuntary spontaneous reaction due to physical stimulus, but that is not what we are discussing here. Are you trying to tell me that you give your actions no thought? I afford my every concious action due consideration.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Chris Reeves: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3359598 -

I'm still trying to figure out what you're commenting on here, Swami. Are you commenting on Reeve's himself, or just using him as an example to emphasize a point totally unrelated to him? In suggesting that Reeve's positive outlook was a failure simply because it did not enable him to walk again, are you saying that his positive outlook was a delusional waste of energy? I'm responding as though you're commenting on Reeve's himself, as though you're suggesting that his positive outlook was not worthwhile.


>> Standard shroomery double-speak. If something works, it works. If something doesn't work, it still works!

You're missing the point.

I said: His affirmations did not enable him to walk again. That doesn't mean that they did not work.

The point:

A positive outlook has much wider implications than the context in which it was expressed. Reeve's expressed his optimism and his determination with the promise to walk again. Why take this pledge so literally? It was because he had his eyes on such a lofty goal that the strides he made in spinal injury research were backed by such enthusiasm. It was because of his positive outlook that he maintained such a healthy state of emotional and spiritual wellbeing. His positive outlook worked quite well for him in this respect. How does the fact that he did not walk again detract from these things?

Look at the big picture, Swami. When a man such as Chris Reeve's demonstates his determination and his optimism with a promise, his failure to fulfill that promise does not necessarily detract from the broader implications of his determination and his optimism.


>> Tangential by-products, even though beneficial to others, do not demonstrate the power of visualizing and then manifesting a SPECIFIC result.

I hardly suspect that Christopher Reeve believed he could visualize and then manifest a specific result by getting up on stage and making a statement. That would be completely irrational. Who would believe that such a thing is possible?

Surely, Reeve's did not intend for his pledge to walk again to be taken as literally as you seem to insist. Surely he was an intelligent enough person to understand that hopeful thinking alone does not cure spinal cord injuries. Surely he meant to dedicate himself to the determination and the optimistic view expressed by his pledge, and not the mere fulfillment of it's words. Surely he did not equate the whole of his life's success with his ability to overcome the near-impossible. That would be completely irrational.

Do you mean to suggest that Chris Reeve's was a fool, that he was this irrational?


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:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

Edited by Ped (11/14/04 12:10 PM)

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Re: Chris Reeves: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Ped]
    #3359702 -

if ever i get a physical handicap, i will most definetly follow christopher reeves example, maintain positivity and determination , and thus get maximum enjoyment out of life and maximize my chances at recovery.


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Everything I post is fiction.

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Re: Chris Reeves: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Ped]
    #3359873 -

I see. So if I set out to build a skyscraper and end up making a birdhouse in my backyard, then I am a "success".

Doctor to Reeve: Sorry Superman, but no one with your condition has ever recovered the ability to walk. Your nerves and spinal cord are severed and they cannot repair themselves.

Reeve: I am different in my mindset than ALL of those other pessimistic ones that sat in their chair. My body is superior to all those naysayers and WILL repair itself. I (endless ego blather...)

I fail to see how this is different than my example of a two prize fighters: One who proclaims how great he is and how he will beat his opponent in the fourth round. Then there is the quiet boxer who says little and systematically defeats the loudmouth. There is NO connection between the verbage and the result.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Chris Reeves: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Swami]
    #3359905 -

*Wanders in for a moment*

You guys still going at this in here?

Can't y'all see that you're not going to convince each other yet?

:grin:

*Wanders back out*

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Re: Chris Reeves: "I am going to walk again!" [Re: Swami]
    #3359954 -

I understand that. What I'm saying is that I doubt Christopher Reeve meant for his pledge to walk again to be taken so literally. It seems to me that as an intelligent person with enough insight into his own condition to make a rational assessment of his future, Reeve's made his promise to walk again only to dedicate himself to the tremendous value a hopeful outlook has to one's quality of life. It was this which ensured him so much personal success and personal happiness, and which propelled his contributions to research in the area.

I agree that an individual who thinks that their words alone could overcome the near-impossible would certainly appear appallingly egotistic. What I'm saying is that Reeve's statement alone is not enough to conclude that he was such a man. Instead, it makes more sense to believe that he made his pledge to walk again so that he could continue striving toward that goal, staving off the despair of being permanently immobilized, hoping that his efforts would lead to a breakthrough in research that would indeed allow himself and others to overcome their injuries and walk again.

I don't think there is any reason to conceive of Christopher Reeve as a delusionally egomaniacal man who believed that reality would conform to his wishes.


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:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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