Home | Community | Message Board


The Spore Depot
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?.... Just the Beggining of Seeing the Beauty of This World....
    #3930838 - 03/17/05 04:21 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?....
.
.
.
Quote:

Psychoactive1984 said:
A-B-C: We can't all go to heaven for our own interpretation unless our logic is flawed... and. Nope, We're going to heaven and you guys aren't.
.
So essentially, I have a fault with the bible due to the fact that it is so segragated... it is written by man... and interpreted by man.. which gives it flaw even in respects to the bible.
.
Example:
God made man... God willingly admits in the book that man is flawed by way of the Devil and the original sin and blah (extraneos)...
.
Man is flawed... Man wrote the bible through god.... Man is flawed even through god... Therefore man could've possibly, (just a possibility, unless someone wants to explain this away with divinity) wrote done the wrong thing by being of course.... a man who is flawed by way of his own's god allowance of letting him have supposed free will.... beyond being damned eternally by not believing in him. Not too mention the Gospels among other things with variation's on an account... although that seemingly has a different explanation.... but :shrug: either way, the contradictions exist.



.
.
.
The Bible as a HUGE standing History Lesson....
Man DID write the Bible, it was stories of the past as they happened WAY back then/when....  All assembled from the people of the times, JUST as the history books of events that have been written of the latest times are being taught in schools across the USA, and perhaps even beyond it's borders....(?) 
.
I remember History class teaching a little bit about the rest of the world, but most was localized to the USA -because that is where I grew up and went to school....    We learn from our History classes as a fact of things that have happened and prooven because you "believe" the people (man) that have written such words down on paper, assembled to make a book of "history" for recent events....
.
But, because the Bible WAS written by MAN of flesh and blood, does this mean that we are all supposed to discredit the fact that it happened....?  HHhhhmmmm....  Does this mean that there should be NO history classes taught to the children going to school....?    I am *thinking* that you *might* understand my point, but I am not sure....(?) 
.
The one thing I do know is that none of my History classes made me happy....  But now as I learn more about the Bible by studying it WITH other people like family and friends, I have found the JOY in my life that I needed to make ME happy....  Talking about GOD, and the writings of MAN as seen as a piece of History of our own past events of the world we live in, that gives me an internal peace and joy that I never got from History class at all....  And THAT is just another thing that helps support my believing....  The smile on my face shines a brightness that others are effected by, and they smile....  And if someone asks me why I smile, I tell them....  It is because I have accepted Jesus Christ into my heart....  Something that everyone can do if or when they decide too.... 
.
So what about all of the "holes" that people talk about that are within the Bible....?  From translation....?    Perhaps what people say kinda~ makes sense....  Because if you were to go to Japan or China, or someplace else that is not here(in the USA) and studied about American History, I am pretty sure you are right in the fact that it would also be filled with translation holes, and perhaps incomplete because I would just logically think that whatever country was giving/writing the history lesson would be more focused on teaching the history of that localized area....  Right....?  In a relative way of teaching History as a subject in school, it makes sense to me....
.
"Holes" or not, I read the Bible and see it a piece of history as was written by the many different events of people's at that time, and assembled together for all to understand what happened back in that time in the world....  It is not much different than now, it is just that now is easier to "believe" in something that is recent and still on our minds as a fresh collection of written events.... 
.
.
Getting to a point in life where something is just "Missing"....
I, myself had gotten to that point....  I had gone thru quite a few hardships with myself, and with my physical health....  That was quite some time ago, and I had "adopted" a new way of thinking knowing full well that I was in control of my own thoughts, as I always was....  So everything was just fine and dandy being "happy" and living my life knowing that only I could perceive things as "being bad", and life just seemed to "drone" on....  Then, I started noticing an emptyness that was just "there"....  And maybe you too will notice this someday if you have not accepted Jesus into your heart....  When you get to a point in your life that you "believe" that the Bible is real as a written piece of true history, and IF you come to an understanding that Jesus Christ's purpose in this world was to selflessly take our sins away(that is what he did die for, and suffered greatly he did - for you and me), you will rest more easily and get on with your life with a smile that shines upon the people in your everyday activities - much like the sun does....  You will WANT to live in a way consistant with your newfounded beliefs - being that you would follow thru with doing "good" or "right" things in your life....  Once you accept Jesus Christ into your heart(if you so choose), you will no longer want your new found "friend" to experience any more sins than he already has suffered.... 
.
Perhaps when we all start LIVING in a way that is free from SIN, and the truth in believing Jesus is running and embraced in every one of us, maybe that will be the time that there is a "Second Coming" of Christ....  Maybe time itself will tell, but it is written about in the Bible - as I remember....  I have not actually gotten to this point of my Bible studies to say that a "Second Coming" is written as a fact....    There is a lot of things I need to read and understand by myself, or with others....
.
.
.
A notice to those that DO believe....
Once you have accepted this CHOICE to believe in Jesus Christ, and if you do CHOOSE to continue on a life living in sin, you will further hurt the very essence of what you believe in, and seperate yourself from it....  And that essence of belief will leave you, as your faith will start to faulter and you will again live in doubt....  Just as the people who CHOOSE NOT TO BELIEVE now....  Living in doubt is a burdon, and it does effect you and how you feel....  The "negative" feelings spread just like positive feelings spread....  That negative feeling is that of "evil"(the dark side of the Yin Yang), it is a choice inside us all, as it always was(except for before Original Sin)....  I had once thought that the "yin-yang" was "incorrect" because it had no color that life actually has....  But the little swimming fish of black and white are more symbolic of the positive and negative choices we all have and make.... 
.
.
.
Another thing to note, "Force vs. Flow"....
Nobody can MAKE anybody else believe in anything....  You can offer your understanding of your beliefs as I have done here, but in no way can anybody make anybody else believe in anything....  Especially something that requires a Leap of Faith....  And that IS exactly what "BELIEF" is....  A Leap of FAITH is believing in something that you had not already logically believed in because you didn't "know"....  And someone is very quick to try and sway your vote of belief to find common ground in their own doubts....    It is the way that the darkside works....  Always trying to instil doubt in someone elses mind / beliefs....  Belief comes from the heart, and once you do believe, it would be your own fault for letting someone else effect you with their own doubts.... 
.
Only GOOD things can happen from people that have pure positive intents towards themselves and others....  And that glowing smile that you carry through the events in your life WILL spread....  Having understanding for the people that have wronged you, and letting it go are the keys to making this world a better place....  If we all were truly happy, then the pain and suffering of the world would pail in comparison to the suffering that it currently does have (for some)....  Seeing the good in the bad, and finding solutions to problems is the way that GOD intended this place to be for all of us....  ONE for ALL, and ALL for ONE....  It was the original plan as intended and designed for life as we know it....  How could it not be....?  :shrug:
.
.
.
Plant a Seed, or Build a Bridge....
I am not ever "trying" to make ANYONE belive in anything with my words by sharing my individual beliefs....  It is all, and has always been an individual choice....  But, the more that we all talk about it, the more seeds are sewn into the minds of the people that have doubt in Jesus Christ....  Maybe someday, with a little watering, that seed will grow and blossom into beautiful flower to further put beauty into this wonderful world we live in....  :smile:  What a wonderful world it is....!
.
.
For those that consider all of this "preaching", or somehow take offense to my beliefs, PLEASE just go on to the next thread....  It was your CHOICE to come here and read this....  Just as it is your choice not to believe in my beliefs....  As I don't really consider this "preaching" as much as I consider it sharing what I believe in as a gift of HOPE that a seed that might grow, and start to shine upon the world with a "SHINE" from every one of our happy smiles and good deeds towards others....  :sun:    And it doesn't even have to be big things as "given" deeds....  Just remember, Some of the best things in life are free, and they are not always things that you can "see"....  Perhaps it is time to scrape that "crud" off of our hearts, and start to see how beautiful this world and all of us really are, from the inside out....
.
I am not really saying any of this for me, I am saying this for whoever might want to know what I think is "right" thru my beliefs....  Do you have to follow or believe in what I do....?  Nope....  Would I think less of you if you didn't believe with me....?  Nope....  We are all supposed to be equal, this is how I made myself equal to everyone else....  By having Faith in Jesus Christ as our saviour, and truly accepting him into my heart....  For THAT was the day that changed my life....  :smile:



ME....


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc: Flag
Re: FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?.... Just the Beggining of Seeing the Beauty of This World.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3931110 - 03/17/05 05:29 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

What really bothers me about people going on and on about Christianity is their smug superiority, "I'm going to heaven and your not!"


I believe in the teachings of Jesus, but don't believe that he actually died on the cross.

That part is the man made part.

Even Jesus said "Do not worship me."

The Christian religion is all about control and nothing else.

You don't have to believe that Jesus "died on the cross" to get into "heaven".

All you have to do is lead a "christian" lifestyle. (most all religions have the same basic teachings)

Jesus was an example of how God wants us to live our life and nothing else. Just an example.

Jesus is no more "the son of God" than any other person walking the planet today.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,329
Loc: On the Border
Re: FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?.... Just the Beggining of Seeing the Beauty of This World.... [Re: niteowl]
    #3931202 - 03/17/05 05:55 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

"The Bible as a HUGE standing History Lesson...."

The whole point of religion is to take it on faith. Why must you try to convince other people the truth of the Bible and that Christianity is the one true way? Faith needs no justification. Why do I feel that before long you will have found another "true path", like Buddhism, Jehovah's Witness', Hinduism, or Islam, that you will be just as motivated (and preach in a heavy handed way) about...and then another and another...


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?.... Just the Beggining of Seeing the Beauty of This World.... [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3931664 - 03/17/05 07:32 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

:lol: give it a rest PhanTomCat... attempting to find virtue through whatever means..... good that you believe in it... I don't and some people just won't regardless of your dogma...

Suppose I'll be in hell... and you'll be in a segragated heaven by virute of all the collective denominations all going to heaven.

Pick up a history book... at least that is blatantly written by man and the facts can substantiate themselves... without having to rely on faith and conjecture.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisiblePsychoactive1984
PositiveCynicist
Male
Registered: 02/06/05
Posts: 3,546
Loc: California, Monterey Coun...
Re: FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?.... Just the Beggining of Seeing the Beauty of This World.... [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3931686 - 03/17/05 07:39 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

BTW have you seen "Saved" the movie PhanTomCat?

Stupid ass movie, I saw it with my sister... anyhow has to do with people believing in God and following his way despite the foolish reprecussions of their actions.

I suggest you rent it, if not to see what I've seen, but to at least to show you what dogma with no proof is capable of doing.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Perhaps WE ALL go to HEAVEN - IF we are "GOOD" People.... **MY** FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?.... [Re: niteowl]
    #3932009 - 03/17/05 08:54 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Perhaps WE ALL go to HEAVEN - IF we are "GOOD" People....  **MY** FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?....
.
.
.
Quote:

niteowl said:
What really bothers me about people going on and on about Christianity is their smug superiority, "I'm going to heaven and your not!"
.
I believe in the teachings of Jesus, but don't believe that he actually died on the cross.
.
That part is the man made part.
.
Even Jesus said "Do not worship me."
.
The Christian religion is all about control and nothing else.
.
You don't have to believe that Jesus "died on the cross" to get into "heaven".
.
All you have to do is lead a "christian" lifestyle. (most all religions have the same basic teachings)
.
Jesus was an example of how God wants us to live our life and nothing else. Just an example.
.
Jesus is no more "the son of God" than any other person walking the planet today.



.
.
The "only" ONE  I worship is GOD, and it is said in the Bible as I know it that the Holy Ghost was the bridge that was built from GOD to MAN in the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ....  If I were to not believe in all three aspects of the Trinity, I would not believe in GOD, to which I DO believe in my heart that there is a GOD, a Jesus Christ, and a Holy Ghost - ALL AS ONE....  But, I would not say that you having a different belief in what I believe would put me to Heaven and you to Hell, that does seem a little absurd if we are both living with positive intentions towards each other....  :shrug:
.
Perhaps Jesus Christ said "Don't worship me" because he did not believe he was a MAN of flesh and blood holding the Holy Ghost of GOD....  If you yourself were to put into Jesus's sandles, it makes complete sense that you (believing in GOD) would be serving GOD in your actions, and would not want to be worshiped as though you were GOD....  I do understand this....  Or, at least I understand why....
.
And I am not trying to be smug about anything, as I am still learning much, and have MUCH more to learn about my beliefs, as it seems like a neverending learning process - BUT, I have a very open mind for discussion....  So, lets discuss....!    Perhaps we all DO go to heaven no matter what we believe - just as long as our actions are done out of positive intentions towards each other....    The Bible does say, as I remember,  "One that doesn't believe does not go to Heaven"....  BUT, what if ANYTHING was POSSIBLE, and we will all go to Heaven for being "good" no matter what we believe....?    What if that little part of the Bible was added to try to "force a hand" in believing - thus seperating and dividing....?    If that was put in by someone with EVIL intents, it would very much serve to seperate AND divide us all, as it seems to be doing with our personal beliefs right now....  That to me does not sound at ALL what GOD is all about....  As we are taught, we are NEVER supposed to find fault in another person, BUT, we ARE encouraged to find fault in another's WRONGFUL actions - as these actions are CHOSEN of either good intentions, or bad intentions....  We are supposed to point out those wrong decisions in actions, and find forgiveness in the person for having chosen those actions for hopes that they will choose the "right" actions in the future....    This is what helps people grow together in understanding each other, as one in unity, for the betterment of humankind....  :smile:  :heart:
.
Tell me NiteOwl, if this ONE little thing about going to Heaven "only if you believe" is perhaps in the Bible as the only thing that seperates our beliefs, perhaps that is why it might have been put in there - out of the evil intentions of dividing us all....(?)    Perhaps this one little factor is what so greatly seperates our possible unity in and of a believer and a non-believer....    As I have in my very signature, and as something I feel to be "important" to this very discussion, 
.
Time is so precious, for even in the hourglass, EVERY "tiny" grain of sand COUNTS....
For Time is Timeless, and EACH and EVERY grain of sand is COUNTLESS....
 
.
When I had put that in there yesterday, I had no idea that it might have such a meaningfulness in YOU(NiteOwl) bringing up your question about going to Heaven yet again for me....  I honestly don't put ANY thought in going to Heaven at all, NOR have I tried to make my own assumptions as to what it may be like....  Maybe that is why I didn't put any of my own thought into this, as you have asked me before - and I gave the "Bible" answer as I know it to be....  I honestly have no idea what Heaven is like because as I know it, I have never died before....!  :lol:  So for me to think about Heaven would give me some kind of expectation for something that I really have no clue or understanding about....  I am too busy soaking up the wonderful rays of the sun, the beauty of everything here in this little world, and shining my smile out onto the world for all to enjoy as much as I enjoy the world and the people "in and of it"....  :laugh: :sun:
.
Perhaps this is going to make people doubt my FAITH in the Bible(the Word of GOD -as written by man), and that is fine....  I do not think that GOD would EVER want to loose ANY of his children....  And again, it is very much noted that, and has been prooven that there are perhaps some things that were lost in translation, or even altered by that of someone with evil intentions of seperating us as equal people.... 
.
NiteOwl, I graciously thank you VERY much for bringing this up to me again, it is a point that you have been bringing to me a few times now....  It kinda~ makes a heck of a lot of sense when you think about it....!    I believe EVERYONE is precious, EVERYONE - no matter what they believe in as positive intentions, we are born with spirit, and that spirit does carry on....  This one factor of the Bible is what seems to seperate and divide us here on earth as equal people, and seemingly, this one small thing really does put a dividing wedge in FAITHs for a lot of people.... 
.
It was always something I did not understand as I am learning about the Bible - or that I have known thru my growing up....  Something that never made sense to me is when a person on death row that had commited so many inhumane crimes of killing other people, why on earth would a Priest or Pastor go in and allow a killer of such magnitudes to be "forgiven" right before their death....?    For now, this all makes sense to me completely....  The killers doing great evil intentions thru their actions were ruled by their wrongful and evil actions - pehaps because they were more open to evil suggestions(?), but the person themself is not to be condemed to hell unless they were not at least sorry for their wrongful actions....(?)  Perhaps it takes a person that is truly EVIL to NOT go to Heaven, OR someone who is purposely serving that of satan himself....    I dunno~, it would be very interesting to hear other opinions to this line of thought....  :smile:  :heart:
.
If I was told that I would not be going to Heaven because I didn't believe in a specified belief as presented by another - EVEN if I was a very good person at heart and thru my positive actions towards myself and others, I would have a hard time listening to them as well....  AND it WOULD very much SEPERATE and DIVIDE us....    So, believe me, I am not trying to be smug or superior at all - as maybe YOU just may have pointed out something very crucial for everone to know and ponder about the Bible....  I don't think ANYTHING should divide the people of the world that are living with "positive intentions" or "good intentions" towards all the rest of mankind....  I conceivably :wink: was not around when the Bible was written, nor was I there when whoever it was that translated and edited it to be what it is now....  Perhaps this is why people of different faiths have such a difficult time with those of another faith or belief, and having open discussions with them....  One of the first judgements to be made about another "not believing" in your faith, is that they are going to hell....  Perhaps if this division was welded together with a bridge, it could bring a lot of beliefs together - as it seemingly was meant to be....    :heart:  :laugh:  :sun:
.
I am thinking, but not assuming that I may be zapped by a lot of people for this idea of thought, and that is fine....  There is NOTHING wrong with discussing such things....  Nothing at all....  :smile:   
.
Did you notice, if we all DO go to Heaven no matter what our beliefs are, it takes out the "Control", and the "Division" or "Seperation" in our beliefs....  And this IS what equality in humans is supposed to be like - if ever there was a plan by the ALMIGHTY ONE, known as GOD....  With what little logic I actually have, this makes complete sense to me....  And I also know that I could be wrong as well, that is what I get for being human....  But a threat or reward for Heaven just does not sound "Just" nor "Sound" if we are to all live as,
"One for ALL, and ALL for ONE....
.
.
.
Psychoactive1984,
Give it a rest....?  NEVER....!!  :lol:
I have not seen "Saved", but why would I want to waste my time watching "A Stupid Ass Movie" as you put it...?  :shrug:  :lol:  :heart:
.
.
ME....
.
.
:heartpump::sun::heartpump:
.
Question:
"One that doesn't believe does not go to Heaven"....  <=== How many times and/or how many places does this "rule" show up....?


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?.... Just the Beggining of Seeing the Beauty of This World.... [Re: niteowl]
    #3932102 - 03/17/05 09:09 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

when I was little, our local catholic church and school cathekism (sp?) tought us that people from all religions go to heaven if they are good because it is not their fault they don't know anything about Jesus.

so not all christians think the same way


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineslaphappy
Its just me
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/29/04
Posts: 1,188
Loc: Norway, Eidsvoll, Råholt...
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?.... Just the Beggining of Seeing the Beauty of This World.... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3932181 - 03/17/05 09:25 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I like love.

I don't like pity.


--------------------
The argent messenger of truth beyond truth, the antithesis of life, cruel and bleak as interstellar space, pulseless and frozen as absolute zero, dazzling with the frost of irrefragable logic and unforgettable fact.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Re: FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?.... Just the Beggining of Seeing the Beauty of This World.... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3932516 - 03/17/05 10:26 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
when I was little, our local catholic church and school cathekism (sp?) tought us that people from all religions go to heaven if they are good because it is not their fault they don't know anything about Jesus.

so not all christians think the same way







From what I have been told by MANY preachers and good Christian folk is "Good people who have never heard the Christ story will go to heaven." If you have been told the story of Christ and deny the fact that "He is the Son of God." Then your condemned to hell.


Even PhanTomCat said it in this post

Quote:

As far as I know to be true in my beliefs as I know them, with what bits and pieces I do know about what is written in the Bible, it says that people who do not believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord GOD and savior, will not be going to Heaven.... I would not be respecting what I believe to be the truth if I did not respect this as written in the Bible....





PhanTomCat you an I have a very different view of heaven and the afterlife.

Please correct me if Im wrong......In your view you believe that you only have this one life to live. If you dont live your life right, then when you die, you will either go to a "heaven" and live a life of ease for eternity, OR you will go to hell and live a life of torment.......Right???

I dont believe that you can become a "perfect" soul in 1 lifetime.

If you dont learn all the lessons then you have to come back to this "meatspace" in another life that will challenge your soul in the right ways to learn whatever lessons you need to learn.



I believe that heaven and hell both exist on this "material/meat" plane. I believe that if you live a good life and try to do no harm to others (basic christian values), and learn the lessons your soul needs to learn, that you will get the chance to come back in a better life. If your bad your next life will be harder.



If you learn all the lessons your soul has to learn then you dont have to come back in this "meat space". You get to remain in "spirit" form as an angel. Helping others as guardians. You can even choose to come back to this "meatspace" if you want.



I believe that Jesus was a historical person who had a good sermon to spread. He lived his live according to the 10 commandments. He was an example of how to live your life.

Not some "God" on earth.

Not someone to be worshiped, but to emulate.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?.... Just the Beggining of Seeing the Beauty of This World.... [Re: niteowl]
    #3933018 - 03/17/05 11:46 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Even PhanTomCat said it in this  post
.
Quote:

As far as I know to be true in my beliefs as I know them, with what bits and pieces I do know about what is written in the Bible, it says that people who do not believe that Jesus Christ is our Lord GOD and savior, will not be going to Heaven.... I would not be respecting what I believe to be the truth if I did not respect this as written in the Bible....



.
PhanTomCat you an I have a very different view of heaven and the afterlife.
.
Please correct me if Im wrong......In your view you believe that you only have this one life to live. If you dont live your life right, then when you die, you will either go to a "heaven" and live a life of ease for eternity, OR you will go to hell and live a life of torment.......Right???
.
I dont believe that you can become a "perfect" soul in 1 lifetime.
.
If you dont learn all the lessons then you have to come back to this "meatspace" in another life that will challenge your soul in the right ways to learn whatever lessons you need to learn.
.
.
I believe that Jesus was a historical person who had a good sermon to spread. He lived his live according to the 10 commandments. He was an example of how to live your life.
.
Not some "God" on earth.
.
Not someone to be worshiped, but to emulate.



.
.
At that time when I made that post you quoted, I had not challenged what I considered "right" and "wrong", AND as stated in that quote, I was quoting what I knew to be truth "as I knew it"- without challenge....  That is why I said I might get "zapped" for making my last post....  (did you read my last post?)  Am I not allowed to evolve my understanding with new things that are presented to me....?    Am I not allowed to challenge the things as assembled and edited by MAN....?    Please let me know where I have failed in my trying to understand something that seemingly seperates, controls, and divides us all as written in the Bible for truth....  For even if I am wrong, and it is pointed out to me, I will learn from my mistakes.... 
.
I just wonder your intentions in pointing out the fact that I might have made a mistake in my past....?    It *could* be perceived as you trying to point out a flaw in *trying* to get a better understanding for things and think it thru on my own....    Does knowledge and understanding of a person supposed to stop evolving, ever....?  If you dig back far enough in my posts, you will come to a point where I was not where I am now....  Will that be thrown at me for evolving from that point in time too....?  :shrug:
.
.
And also as I stated in my last post, I have no idea, nor expectations as to what Heaven nor Hell is like....    Period....    If you have some idea as to what either Heaven or Hell IS actually like, I would Love to hear your words....  You are a mortal MAN, right...?  I am thinking that there would be no words to describe such things in a language that we could all understand....  BUT, that would be an assumption on my part....  So, I withdraw my thinking in this portion of my response, and hope to hear yours....  I chorduly and respectfully ask you to share your perception of Heaven and Hell with all of us.... 
.
.
And that leaves us to your comments about Jesus....  I just don't remember mercilious beatings and crucification being part of any 10 Commandments that I ever read....?    It was a very selfless act on Jesus's part as to be for the betterment of mankind as we know it....  He did it to take away the sins of the world, not for himself, for YOU and I....    I think that at least (for me) demands a large amount of respect and admiration....  HE took my sins away....  Gone....  How could anyone emulate that....?    And not that I would be wanting of such a thing for myself, but if GOD asked me, I would have no choice....  Just as we don't have a lot of choices in this world that we claim to "know"....  If you see it differently, I would ask that you also share your perspectives as opposed to trying to knock mine down....  :smile:  :heart:
.
.
ME....


:heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Re: FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?.... Just the Beggining of Seeing the Beauty of This World.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3933165 - 03/18/05 12:20 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
At that time when I made that post you quoted, I had not challenged what I considered "right" and "wrong", AND as stated in that quote, I was quoting what I knew to be truth "as I knew it"- without challenge....  That is why I said I might get "zapped" for making my last post....  (did you read my last post?)  Am I not allowed to evolve my understanding with new things that are presented to me....?





If you have realized that being a Christian isnt the ONLY way in to "heaven"

:bow:


Quote:

If you have some idea as to what either Heaven or Hell IS actually like, I would Love to hear your words....




Heven and Hell are both a part of this world.

This "meatspace".

Some people tend to live a "gifted" life (heaven). Some people live a "herd" life (hell).


Quote:

You are a mortal MAN, right...?




Yes the body is mortal but the soul is eternal.



Quote:

And that leaves us to your comments about Jesus....  I just don't remember mercilious beatings and crucification being part of any 10 Commandments that I ever read....?





Teh 10 commandments were broken by the Riomans who did the crucifying/ All Jesus could do was endure what life had dealt him.

He never broke any of the Commandments.   


Quote:

It was a very selfless act on Jesus's part as to be for the betterment of mankind as we know it....




He was executed for teaching/saying things that the Romans didnt want to hear and they killed him for it.

period


Quote:

He did it to take away the sins of the world, not for himself, for YOU and I....





He didnt chose to do it...it was forced upon him. Like any political execution he was killed for his beliefs.

Oh and Jesus's dying did NOT take sin away from the planet.....sorry.

Quote:

HE took my sins away....  Gone....  How could anyone emulate that....?




Are you saying that sin dosent exist???

Please explain......

Im guessing that you believe that if Charles Manson or Hitler, would go to heaven if they believed that Jesus is the "Savior of man/Son of God"


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?.... Just the Beggining of Seeing the Beauty of This World.... [Re: niteowl]
    #3933223 - 03/18/05 12:54 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

He did it to take away the sins of the world, not for himself, for YOU and I....



.
He didnt chose to do it...it was forced upon him. Like any political execution he was killed for his beliefs.
.
Oh and Jesus's dying did NOT take sin away from the planet.....sorry.
.
Quote:

HE took my sins away....  Gone....  How could anyone emulate that....?



.
Are you saying that sin dosent exist???
.
Please explain......
.
Im guessing that you believe that if Charles Manson or Hitler, would go to heaven if they believed that Jesus is the "Savior of man/Son of God"



.
After this, I need to get off of the computer for the night....  It was a very enknowledging day....  :smile:
.
I know that Jesus's crucification was forced upon him, but he full well caried the cross thru the streets with conviction, with intent....  He could have fled before they came and took him for his punishment, but he was knowingly ready to face what was coming, and had a last supper -as I remember....  So, he submitted to it, as I see it, for a betterment of man as said, to take away the sins of the world instead of fleeing....  It was part of a plan, so that we could live and be happy, and happy I shall be, well, until I am not happy....!    :lol:
.
.
And for me to explain would be for you to except Jesus into your heart....   
There are no words other than that, as they are no mear words, it is belief....        :shrug:
Note:  just saying the words, and saying the words and meaning it with your very being, ARE very different things....
.
.
Whoever may read this, have a wonderFULL night....  :smile:  :heart:


ME....


:heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Re: FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?.... Just the Beggining of Seeing the Beauty of This World.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3933958 - 03/18/05 05:27 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said
He could have fled before they came and took him for his punishment, but he was knowingly ready to face what was coming, and had a last supper -as I remember....




He didn't flee because he couldn't. He had upset the Romans and their was no escape.

The Romans had to make an example out of him.

They tried to be as civil about it as they could be for the times.....letting him have a "last supper"; allowing him to be killed after only 3 days rather than 7-10 days(when the soldier pierced his side with the sword);allowing him to be crucified near his grave site.

True he suffered a brutal beating.....but his Crucifixion was mild for the era.

Quote:

So, he submitted to it, as I see it, for a betterment of man as said, to take away the sins of the world instead of fleeing....




How does his death "take away the sins of the world"?

I never did understand that.

People who are uber~religious get caught up on the story of his death and that should not be message of Jesus.

When I said that we should emulate Jesus. I didn't mean we should go out and get crucified. I meant that we should live our lives as Jesus did.....love thy enemy; turn the other cheek; do unto others as you would have them do unto you....

That is the message we need to take away from the story of Christ.

Not how he died......but how he LIVED.


The "church" made up parts of the bible to make people act a certain way. Too control them.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineDelusion_of_Self
Stranger

Registered: 03/14/05
Posts: 230
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?.... Just the Beggining of Seeing the Beauty of This World.... [Re: niteowl]
    #3934113 - 03/18/05 07:06 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Jesus spoke from the Christ Consciousness, hence "I Am The Way, the Truth, and the Life". He was not refering to the dogma we know today as christianity, he was refering to the Christ Consciousness.


--------------------
"It is never a question of belief; the only scientific attitude one can take on any subject is whether it is true. The law of gravitation worked as efficiently before Newton as after him. The cosmos would be fairly chaotic if its laws could not operate without the sanction of human belief." -- Sri Yukteswar


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Re: FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?.... Just the Beggining of Seeing the Beauty of This World.... [Re: Delusion_of_Self]
    #3935217 - 03/18/05 12:48 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

True, but most "good christians" (ones spouting "Jesus is the savior of man") are caught up in the drama/dogma of their religion.......not the true meaning behind the religion.

I believe that you can find "enlightenment" without having to believe in the "Christian" religion.

Most...if not all...."good Christians" dont see it that way.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?.... Just the Beggining of Seeing the Beauty of This World.... [Re: niteowl]
    #3935420 - 03/18/05 01:36 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

That's the problem...

A fameous shef comes to teach a few people how to cook a good meal, and they end up immitating the way he stands or talks or his hairstyle.

That is what happened with christianity. A guy comes with some good advice for peace and love, and they turn it into some rituals where you have to have crosses around your neck, or repeat the way this guy was having dinner.

so if you want to make a good meal, does it really go to waste if you don't comb your hair the same way the shef did, the one that showed you how to cook? no


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
Re: FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?.... Just the Beggining of Seeing the Beauty of This World.... [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3935917 - 03/18/05 03:36 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
The Romans had to make an example out of him.
.
They tried to be as civil about it as they could be for the times.....letting him have a "last supper"; allowing him to be killed after only 3 days rather than 7-10 days(when the soldier pierced his side with the sword);allowing him to be crucified near his grave  site.
.
True he suffered a brutal beating.....but his Crucifixion was mild for the era.



.
I think it *might* have been considered mild because the Romans KNEW that Jesus had done no wrong, they were making an example of him, out of PURE FEAR that his teachings might be heard and emulated....  Which would very much be considered Control.... 
.
NiteOwl, I very much thank YOU for pointing this out to me....  :heart:
.
One thing I would like to point out to you....  Jesus, even after the brutal beatings and humiliation(COMPLETELY contrairy to his teachings and way of life), still NEVER GAVE UP HOPE, NOR his FAITH in GOD....  He NEVER FAULTERED once, and he FORGAVE those people that were acting out of EVIL intentions as "it" happened....  Jesus gave EVERYTHING he had with an absolute DRIVE for his convictions and promise to GOD to carry that cross, no matter how much pain, suffering, humiliation or hunger he went thru....  Otherwise known as "Personal Selfless SACRIFICE"....    THAT, is why his death was so important in the "big picture"....  He selflessly did it With his FAITH in GOD, so that we ALL could one day choose to live without the burdons and guilt of sin....  Once we are all able to do this together as one, this little world we live in will become a MUCH BRIGHTER place - with a MUCH bigger meaning....  Which brings me to the next point you *may* be thinking already....
.
.
.
Quote:

Quote:

So, he submitted to it, as I see it, for a betterment of man as said, to take away the sins of the world instead of fleeing....



.
How does his death "take away the sins of the world"?
.
I never did understand that.



.
You just may never understand as I do, until you believe and embrace the full meaning of Jesus's purpose to the world....  If you accept and welcome Jesus into your heart, you will understand, and you will find true peace and joy within your life....  Until then, you may never understand this to it's full potential....  BUT, this is not for me to say that what you choose is wrong, as it is not....  I would NEVER look down on you for not taking a "Leap of Faith"....    When or IF you so CHOOSE to do so, you will see that everyone has a chance to live free from sin and the burdons of guilt from your past sins and wrongful doings in life....  Perhaps only you know what you have done out of negative intentions, but because you do know, that will always be as part of the weight of burdon on your shoulders....  Acceptance to the fact that you have done these things in your past is just a realization of the weight and burdon.... 
.
You may be able to condition yourself to NOT view this weight, but it will always be there - UNTIL you accept Jesus into your heart, to lift those very sins off of your very being....  Then you can go on about your life in Peace and Joy to act out of pure GOOD intentions, because then, you will truly be living in a way as to be unstaind by the world around you - if you choose to do so, and continued on that path....  And again, I would NEVER look down upon you for your choices....  That is the way life was intended to be for us all - UNTIL the point where EVIL reared it's ugly deceptive head and gave MAN the choice to act out on EVIL.... 
.
:heart: + :sun: = :sun::heartpump::sun:
.
(the sun is symbolic of the Son of GOD in the above....)
(and to be noted that I BELEIVE we are ALL children of GOD....)
.
.
.
Quote:

People who are uber~religious get caught up on the story of his death and that should not be  message of Jesus.



.
I have not gotten caught up on anything, I praise Jesus for every aspect of his life....  Even the imperfect parts of it, as man, and before he found GOD, he did make mistakes....  Just like you and I.... 
.
.
.
Quote:

When I said that we should emulate Jesus. I didn't mean we should go out and get crucified. I meant that we should live our lives as Jesus did.....love thy enemy; turn the other cheek; do unto others as you would have them do unto you....
.
That is the message we need to take away from the story of Christ.
.
Not how he died......but how he LIVED.



.
You cannot embrace Jesus's FULL meaning to this world unless you embrace every part of him....  The living teachings, as well as his purpose in death....  It brings tears to my eyes as I type this thinking how one MAN (embracing GOD as the Holy Ghost in his heart) who would try to spread LOVE to the world would have to suffer such a tragic ending....    :crying: :heart:
.
.
.
Quote:

The "church" made up parts of the bible to make people act a certain way. Too control them.



.
The more you share your personal Spiritual understanding with me, the more I am starting to realize the "control" part you are speaking of....  For this, I cannot express my personal undying gratitude for you speaking openly about your beliefs....  I can only HOPE and have FAITH that you can also find TRUTH and LOVE in my understanding of Spirituality and GOD as well - as we may learn together in understanding of each other....  This is as a neverending journey of evolving in understanding of perceived knowledge of the Spirit, and of GOD....  For this, but not as a requirement, I do LOVE YOU for being YOU....  :smile:  I honestly can't thank you enough for how you have helped to open my eyes just a little bit more than they already were....  :heartpump:
.
.
.
Again, I will say that I am not a person that knows all, nor am I trying to be "smug" or "preachy"....  I do NOT consider myself to be a Christian, this is just where my interest is leading me at this point in my life in understanding religion and the TRUTH behind it....  Jesus lived for something much bigger than himself, and I do think us speaking about him has brought a much greater understanding of his meaning and purpose in life to me personally....  I hope you see that Spiritual evolution is just that, a learning process that one goes thru to find a completeness and uber JOY when looking at the world thru unstaind intentions, and ACTING on personal choice of expressing one's feelings ONLY thru selfless positive actions towards another as well as one's self.... 
.
.
WE....
^^^ Had to be turned upside down....!

:sun:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinestarptv23
kindchicka420
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/04
Posts: 409
Loc: dancing in my head
Last seen: 11 years, 5 months
Re: FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?.... Just the Beggining of Seeing the Beauty of This World.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3935986 - 03/18/05 03:54 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

i dint mean to be rude here but you keep going on and on and Jesus...i know he works for you and your life and that is cool but why do you continue to post this everyday???? you know Jesus was Jewish not Christan...i dint even know how the religion even started that name...JESUS WAS JEWISH and he did not like the way Romans where making money off Jewish traditions he talked about it and got killed for his thoughts...I'm Jewish and i think he was just like any other man with open thoughts and people followed ....if he was here today and seen how his thought was spun out of control he would be sick...you go to a church you get asked for money ..you watch a christan channel they want money and jesus will save you...you go to a jewish temple and it is simple...not like most churches..I'm sorry for my views but i guess we are being op em here...and you like to voice yours...


--------------------
"Six words: drop out, turn on, then come back and tune it in -and then drop out again, and turn on, and tune it back in-it's a rhythm- most of us think God made this universe in nature-subject object-predicate sentences-turn on, tune in, drop out- period, end of paragraph. Turn the page- it's all a rhythm- it's all a beat. You turn on, you find it inside, and then you have to come back (since you can't stay high all the time) and you have to build a better model. But don't get caught - don't get hooked - don't get attracted by the thing you're building, cause... you gotta drop out again. It's a cycle. Turn on, tune in, drop out. Keep it going, keep it going- the nervous system works that way. gotta keep it flowing- keep it flowing.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleniteowl
GrandPaw
Male User Gallery

Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Re: FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?.... Just the Beggining of Seeing the Beauty of This World.... [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3936520 - 03/18/05 06:29 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
I think it *might* have been considered mild because the Romans KNEW that Jesus had done no wrong, they were making an example of him, out of PURE FEAR that his teachings might be heard and emulated.... Which would very much be considered Control....





Yea CONTROL the same kind of control/fear the Church has used to control the TRUE message of Jesus.

Not that he was some "Son of God".......but just a man with a pure spirit, unhindered by "sin" (temptation, anger, lust...)

Jesus was a pure spirit sent to teach us how to live our life. He showed us how God wanted us to use the 10 commandments. A living example of how we are menat to live.

The Church twisted the "meaning" of Jesus.

Twisted Him into a "GOD". Made His death into something it wasnt. His death had nothing to do with "saving your soul".

He was no "god" my friend.

Just a man.

Quote:

One thing I would like to point out to you.... Jesus, even after the brutal beatings and humiliation(COMPLETELY contrairy to his teachings and way of life), still NEVER GAVE UP HOPE, NOR his FAITH in GOD.... He NEVER FAULTERED once, and he FORGAVE those people that were acting out of EVIL intentions as "it" happened....




The 10 Commandments in action here.





Quote:

If you accept and welcome Jesus into your heart, you will understand, and you will find true peace and joy within your life....




I have found peace and joy in my life. Jesus dying had very little to do with that tho.


Quote:

You may be able to condition yourself to NOT view this weight, but it will always be there - UNTIL you accept Jesus into your heart, to lift those very sins off of your very being....




again you dont have to believe that Jusus is the "Son of God" to live a peacefull life.


Quote:

Jesus lived for something much bigger than himself....





Yea.

The same thing you need to be living your life for...


God



Worship God by emulating Jesus.


Dont worship Jesus.


Jesus died because of the way he lived his life.

Not to remove sin from man.

Their is still PLENTY of sin to go around.

I wonder who is teaching you the bible?



What "Church" group?





Their are MANY


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,866
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 2 months, 4 days
Re: FAI?H in JeSuS ChriS?.... Just the Beggining of Seeing the Beauty of This World.... [Re: niteowl]
    #3936554 - 03/18/05 06:39 PM (11 years, 8 months ago)

"you do not see, the beauty of this world, you is it"
-Unknown :P


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Chris Reeve: "I am going to walk again!"
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
Swami 6,319 151 03/24/09 06:57 PM
by Icelander
* What makes something beautiful/artsitic/meaningful and why do we enjoy these things? Nymphaea 649 6 05/05/09 11:05 PM
by Nymphaea
* Beauty
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 all )
Veritas 6,667 177 05/25/06 01:10 AM
by SneezingPenis
* where is beauty
( 1 2 all )
Lakefingers 1,741 35 10/02/08 08:34 AM
by eve69
* Beauty Silversoul 898 6 01/01/07 04:58 PM
by MarkostheGnostic
* Relativity of Beauty mushroomplume 480 4 10/17/07 12:24 AM
by ShroomFan
* Tell A Stranger She Is Beautiful
( 1 2 all )
AlteredAgain 5,578 39 01/11/07 10:50 AM
by leery11
* Beauty contests
( 1 2 all )
Swami 1,558 28 06/02/04 11:46 PM
by CleverName

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Diploid, DividedQuantum
4,839 topic views. 2 members, 6 guests and 13 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
FreeSpores.com
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.254 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 16 queries.