Home | Community | Message Board


Kratom Eye
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1
InvisibleLucidDream
Hungry BlueFiend
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 1,488
Loc: Planet of the Stupid Peop...
Alberto Gonzales - A Record of Injustice
    #3344266 - 11/11/04 12:41 AM (12 years, 26 days ago)

Alberto Gonzales: A Record of Injustice

As White House Counsel

GONZALES APPROVED MEMO AUTHORIZING TORTURE: An August 2002 Justice Department memo "was vetted by a larger number of officials, including...the White House counsel's office and Vice President Cheney's office." According to Newsweek, the memo "was drafted after White House meetings convened by George W. Bush's chief counsel, Alberto Gonzales, along with Defense Department general counsel William Haynes and [Cheney counsel] David Addington." The memo included the opinion that laws prohibiting torture do "not apply to the President's detention and interrogation of enemy combatants." Further, the memo puts forth the opinion that the pain caused by an interrogation must include "injury such as death, organ failure, or serious impairment of body functions?in order to constitute torture." The methods outlined in the memo "provoked concerns within the CIA about possible violation of the federal torture law [and] also raised concerns at the FBI, where some agents knew of the techniques being used" overseas on high-level al Qaeda officials. [Gonzales 8/1/02 memo; WP, 6/27/04; Newsweek, 6/21/04; NYT, 6/27/04]

GONZALES BELIEVES MANY GENEVA CONVENTIONS PROVISIONS ARE OBSOLETE: A 1/25/02 memo written by White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales said "the war against terrorism is a new kind of war" and "this new paradigm renders obsolete Geneva's strict limitations on questioning of enemy prisoners and renders quaint some of its provisions." The memo pushes to make al Qaeda and Taliban detainees exempt from the Geneva Conventions' provisions on the proper, legal treatment of prisoners. The administration has been adamant that prisoners at Guantanamo are not protected by the Geneva Conventions. [Gonzales 1/25/02 memo; Newsweek, 5/24/04]

GONZALES ADMITTED HIS VIEWS 'COULD UNDERMINE U.S. MILITARY CULTURE': The 1/25/02 memo shows Alberto Gonzales was aware of the risk that ignoring the Geneva Conventions could create for the military. One concern expressed is that failing to apply the Geneva Conventions "could undermine U.S. military culture which emphasizes maintaining the highest standards of conduct in combat, and could introduce an element of uncertainty in the status of adversaries," which is what happened at Abu Ghraib. Secretary of State Colin Powell strongly warned against taking this decision, as did lawyers from the Judge Advocate General's Corps, or JAG. This week, a federal judge ruled that "President Bush had both overstepped his constitutional bounds and improperly brushed aside the Geneva Conventions" when he established military tribunals in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, to try detainees as war criminals. [Gonzales 1/25/02 memo; Bloomberg, 6/14/04; New York Times, 11/9/04]

GONZALES BLOCKS INFORMATION FROM CONGRESS: Historically, senators have been allowed to review some memoranda by judicial nominees. But, in a letter [about nominee Miguel Estrada], Gonzales told the Democrats that the administration would not produce the memos, because to do so would chill free expression among administration lawyers and violate the principle of executive privilege, which protects the internal deliberations of the president's aides. [New Yorker, 5/19/03]

Much, much more...
http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=246536


--------------------
Sarcasm just one of my many talents.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: Alberto Gonzales - A Record of Injustice [Re: LucidDream]
    #3344363 - 11/11/04 12:59 AM (12 years, 26 days ago)

He still seems marginally better than Ashcroft, though Ashcroft was such a shithole in the first place that doesn't say much for the future of fair justice


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleAnnapurna1
liberal pussy
Female User Gallery
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
Re: Alberto Gonzales - A Record of Injustice [Re: LucidDream]
    #3344698 - 11/11/04 01:54 AM (12 years, 26 days ago)

first of all..im no legal expert..so it would help if there was one here who could explain the what constitutes "torture" under the law..and explain the specifics of any laws that forbid its use...

second of all..it is a sad fact that the majority of americans either actively support torture..or at least are willing to tolerate it.. and not only the majority that elected bush either...even alan dershowitz has embraced torture..as a matter of fact before gonzales wrote that memo...

third of all..as a direct consequence of the above..whatever legal obstacles there might be to the use of tortue will soon be removed by the republican congress and the impending neocon SCOTUS...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSteinM
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/03/03
Posts: 35,129
Re: Alberto Gonzales - A Record of Injustice [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3345192 - 11/11/04 04:16 AM (12 years, 26 days ago)

Yes, what does constitute "torture"?

If tickling someone with a feather on the nose or toes, to get them to talk, is torture then I'm 100% against it!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleGreat_Satan
prophet of God
 User Gallery

Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 953
Re: Alberto Gonzales - A Record of Injustice [Re: Stein]
    #3345671 - 11/11/04 08:42 AM (12 years, 26 days ago)

I guess this means you all approve of the torture going on in the mid east by the Islamic terrorists.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: Alberto Gonzales - A Record of Injustice [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3345811 - 11/11/04 10:33 AM (12 years, 26 days ago)

what is wrong with torture? it is a tool to get information. we should do it and outsource it to the jordanians.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleKingOftheThing
the cool fool
 User Gallery

Registered: 11/17/02
Posts: 27,389
Loc: USA
Re: Alberto Gonzales - A Record of Injustice [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3345818 - 11/11/04 10:36 AM (12 years, 26 days ago)

Quote:

Great_Satan said:
I guess this means you all approve of the torture going on in the mid east by the Islamic terrorists.




isnt the idea that we are better than they are?? ya know, more civilized and shit???


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleLucidDream
Hungry BlueFiend
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 1,488
Loc: Planet of the Stupid Peop...
Re: Alberto Gonzales - A Record of Injustice [Re: Annapurna1]
    #3348952 - 11/11/04 11:17 PM (12 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
it would help if there was one here who could explain the what constitutes "torture" under the law..




Here's what Gonzales' memo said regarding torture: basically, it's not torture unless there is major organ failure, and as I said on another thread, this is a clear signal to the FBI that they can beat the sweet baby jesus out of people with little risk.


--------------------
Sarcasm just one of my many talents.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleLucidDream
Hungry BlueFiend
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 1,488
Loc: Planet of the Stupid Peop...
Re: Alberto Gonzales - A Record of Injustice [Re: Great_Satan]
    #3348977 - 11/11/04 11:22 PM (12 years, 25 days ago)

5{]Great_Satan said:
I guess this means you all approve of the torture going on in the mid east by the Islamic terrorists.




Is that really the gist of your argument, sir? I'm on Osama's side? Hellfire, at least think up your own talking points, okay? Don't waste my time with pre-written tag-lines. I've met Satan, and lemme tell ya - you're no Satan.


--------------------
Sarcasm just one of my many talents.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: Alberto Gonzales - A Record of Injustice [Re: LucidDream]
    #3349097 - 11/11/04 11:43 PM (12 years, 25 days ago)

it was funny today watching the old bias media talk about what a great man yassar arafat was(all day) then every so often they would mention gonzales and call him the ("architect of torture" )


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleLe_Canard
Danger Man
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/17/03
Posts: 93,260
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: Alberto Gonzales - A Record of Injustice [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3349116 - 11/11/04 11:46 PM (12 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
what is wrong with torture? it is a tool to get information. we should do it and outsource it to the jordanians.




Well, ethical and moral objections aside, the person being tortured will usually tell his/her torturers what they think they want to know, instead of the truth. It's a rather unreliable way to get information IMHO...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleLucidDream
Hungry BlueFiend
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 1,488
Loc: Planet of the Stupid Peop...
Re: Alberto Gonzales - A Record of Injustice [Re: Le_Canard]
    #3349155 - 11/11/04 11:52 PM (12 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
It's a rather unreliable way to get information IMHO...




Can I get an Amen? Right on, brutha Duk.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: Alberto Gonzales - A Record of Injustice [Re: LucidDream]
    #3349331 - 11/12/04 12:20 AM (12 years, 25 days ago)

brutha duk unreliable??? let me ask you question, there is a nuke bomb hidden in Boston that will go off at noon unless the terrorists friends are released from jail. the police capture the terrorist at 10.00am preferring death to failure he wont disclose where the bomb is. if we follow due process we wait for his lawyer and millions of people will die. it is MORALLY MANDATORY to torture him.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: Alberto Gonzales - A Record of Injustice [Re: Le_Canard]
    #3349406 - 11/12/04 12:35 AM (12 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

ToiletDuk said:
Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
what is wrong with torture? it is a tool to get information. we should do it and outsource it to the jordanians.




Well, ethical and moral objections aside, the person being tortured will usually tell his/her torturers what they think they want to know, instead of the truth. It's a rather unreliable way to get information IMHO...




History proves otherwise unfortunately for your case. The psyke of one can be broken down, torture is no longer just physical pain until one gives up information. The number one rule when torturing someone nowadays is never even once allude to their death. It quite effective in many situations.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleRavus
Not an EggshellWalker
 User Gallery

Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
Re: Alberto Gonzales - A Record of Injustice [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3349440 - 11/12/04 12:41 AM (12 years, 25 days ago)

Or you could give him a megadose of datura and put him near the area. He'll probably wander there inadvertently or tell someone

I think datura actually is more reliable than torture at getting people to talk

Though say the terrorist is tortured. He wants it to stop, but wants the bomb to explode to, so as a compromise he says the bomb is so and so, but it actually isn't, and all those people still die and now you've tortured someone. Torture isn't the Way


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleLucidDream
Hungry BlueFiend
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 1,488
Loc: Planet of the Stupid Peop...
Re: Alberto Gonzales - A Record of Injustice [Re: lonestar2004]
    #3349469 - 11/12/04 12:47 AM (12 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

lonestar2004 said:
if we follow due process we wait for his lawyer and millions of people will die. it is MORALLY MANDATORY to torture him.




Actually, no: because we all know, even without torture, that the bomb has been carefully stuffed up your ass, along with your critical thinking ability. But if it was a fun fantasy for you, so be it. :thumbup:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinelonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 5 years, 8 months
Re: Alberto Gonzales - A Record of Injustice [Re: LucidDream]
    #3349486 - 11/12/04 12:54 AM (12 years, 25 days ago)

amen, right on.


--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"

We have "reckless fiscal policies"

America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.

Americans deserve better

Barack Obama


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleLucidDream
Hungry BlueFiend
 User Gallery

Registered: 05/09/03
Posts: 1,488
Loc: Planet of the Stupid Peop...
Re: Alberto Gonzales - A Record of Injustice [Re: d33p]
    #3349495 - 11/12/04 12:56 AM (12 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
The number one rule when torturing someone nowadays is never even once allude to their death. It quite effective in many situations.




Ook. Me big bad L33t d33p. Roxxor Joo Rong Time.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: Alberto Gonzales - A Record of Injustice [Re: LucidDream]
    #3349543 - 11/12/04 01:13 AM (12 years, 25 days ago)

Quote:

LucidDream said:
Quote:

d33p said:
The number one rule when torturing someone nowadays is never even once allude to their death. It quite effective in many situations.




Ook. Me big bad L33t d33p. Roxxor Joo Rong Time.




You have no grasp on modern military tactics and you do not encourage positive debate in PAL. Resorting to petty remarks only shows you feel threatened by me. Also you get banned for making remarks like that so watch out, i expect you to recieve your one and only warning.


And most importantly, where's the love? You need to remember which forum community you are at.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinephi1618
old hand

Registered: 02/14/04
Posts: 4,102
Last seen: 6 years, 6 months
Re: Alberto Gonzales - A Record of Injustice [Re: LucidDream]
    #3349554 - 11/12/04 01:18 AM (12 years, 25 days ago)

Torture -
our enemies do it.
why shouldn't we?


although there are many possible answers to the question, here is the one I think is most important.

It is imperative to maintian limits on power.
Right now, our leaders aren't so bad. If we sanction torture, probably in the short term only Arabs will be tortured. Some will be innocents picked up for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, but most will be people who wouldn't hesitate to use torture if the situation was reversed.

However, once torture becomes an accepted part of the system, it is part of the system. There will be Americans who know how to toruture, and are used to doing it. There will be Americans used to giving the orders to use torture. It will become more acceptable. If bad people come to power (as sooner or later they will), it will not be difficult to expand the scope of torture, to torture gang members, torture drug dealers, torture political enemies...

Remember, we are not discussing "us" torturing "them"; we are discussing the sanctioned use of torture by the United States government - and who here really believes that the US government is our freind?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism
( 1 2 3 4 all )
AlteredAgain 3,849 63 10/06/06 01:16 AM
by Economist
* Ashcroft resigns
( 1 2 3 all )
zappaisgod 1,617 45 11/12/04 01:07 AM
by d33p
* U.S. Replaces Memo on Torture with New Guidelines 2Experimental 423 2 12/31/04 11:33 PM
by 2Experimental
* Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious
( 1 2 3 all )
Silversoul 2,697 56 10/03/06 10:41 AM
by Asante
* gonzales ..NSA spying critics "threat to US security"...
Annapurna1
770 3 11/19/06 11:23 AM
by zappaisgod
* Gonzales proposes new crime: 'Attempted' copyright infringement
( 1 2 all )
SeussA 2,511 31 05/16/07 07:36 PM
by fireworks_god
* Gonzales Wants To Track Americans Internet Activities gregorio 822 8 05/31/06 11:30 AM
by beatnicknick
* Torture No Biggee
( 1 2 all )
Swami 1,069 30 06/24/04 06:57 PM
by d33p

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Prisoner#1, Enlil
985 topic views. 0 members, 1 guests and 6 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Kratom Eye
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.08 seconds spending 0.002 seconds on 14 queries.