|
newuser1492
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
|
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: zappaisgod]
#4776749 - 10/09/05 11:37 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
He and every congressman and senator who voted for the war must be beheaded. Slowly. With a dull knife.
I know. It's too bad that will never happen.
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: newuser1492]
#4776815 - 10/09/05 11:50 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
I was being facetious. You are being foolish
--------------------
|
bukkake
Registered: 05/28/05
Posts: 2,764
Loc: Classified
|
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: zappaisgod]
#4777269 - 10/09/05 02:01 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Most of us knew, Rush.
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 9 months
|
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: bukkake]
#4777271 - 10/09/05 02:02 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Most, but not all, Al.
--------------------
|
Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
|
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Swami]
#4777304 - 10/09/05 02:15 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Link for Swami's cut and paste -- http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150601,00.html
Let's look at this a little more closely.
The article says the number includes those who died of natural causes. I would imagine that in the case of Afghanistan at least, where malnourishment and endemic disease is such that the average lifespan of an Afghani male is under fifty years, there would be a fair number of deaths from natural causes. How many of the 108 was that? The article doesn't say.
The full article does, however, mention violent uprisings at prisons. How many of the 108 died in prison uprisings? The article doesn't say.
How many of the 108 were seriously wounded at time of capture (we are talking about people most often caught on the battlefield, after all) and died of their wounds after capture? The article doesn't say.
What the article does say is that the military investigated "roughly a quarter" of the deaths "as possible abuse by US personnel". What's roughly a quarter" Twenty-four? Twenty-five? I can guarantee you it was no more than 26, because if it was precisely 27 deaths they would not have used the qualifier "roughly", and if it was 28 or more I can guarantee they would have used the qualifier "more than".
So we have... what... maybe two dozen deaths out of 65,000 over a span of four years that have been investigated.
Quote:
Hey though, no pictures, no prosecutions.
Where in the article does it say there have been no prosecutions? I don't see a quote even from Romero saying there have been no prosecutions.
Phred
--------------------
|
HagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 10,028
Loc: Overjoyed, at the bottom ...
Last seen: 1 month, 2 days
|
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Swami]
#4777405 - 10/09/05 02:48 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
When the evidence refutes one's view of reality, shouldn't the good skeptic relent? Or has your recent tribulation exposed a more accepting side of you?
Since I don't doubt you were in the Navy I was surprised to see you mischaracterize Captain's Mast. To refer to it as a sea going Courts Martial would be a mistake I would have figured someone such as yourself wouldn't have made. Captain's Mast is nonjucdicial punshment.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
|
The14thWarrior
The Shootist
Registered: 09/28/05
Posts: 491
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
|
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: HagbardCeline]
#4777529 - 10/09/05 03:18 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Very true, a bunch of friends in the Marines have to deal with "Office Hours", I think it's called. NJP.
--------------------
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: HagbardCeline]
#4777619 - 10/09/05 03:35 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
You are technically correct, I was just giving those unfamiliar with the term a somewhat similar comparison. My point stands that charges were fabricated and later dismissed only through heroic efforts and careful documentation on my part - not because of any 'real' justice.
The point that Phred and others were attempting to make is that the torture was unknown to higher-ups and the act of a few bad apples. This is extremely unlikely and if true, certainly indicates negligent leadership and piss-poor training; not one worthy of a promotion.
My personal observations show the bending and side-stepping of (UCMJ) military law by the Captain and senior officers of a nuclear frigate.
Was this unique? No. While on the USS Constellation CVA-64, a fellow radar man was severely injured after being shocked with high voltage when the Radar chief bypassed safety regulations and ordered the sailor to perform an unnecessary and dangerous operation. I wrote the Chief up for safety violations and was told in no uncertain terms by the Executive Officer to rip up the report or face holy hell for the remainder of my tour.
Then there was the time on the USS Horne CG-30 where we accidentally shot at a civilian aircraft (TWA Flight 800 anyone?) and were severely warned never to speak of it or face dire consequences. (The civilian pilot of the piper cub was unaware that he had been shot at as the missile missed him by a few hundred yards to his rear.)
The 1989 gun turret explosion on board the USS Iowa exposed all sorts of procedural fuck-ups including using 40 year-old powder. How did the Navy investigative team deal with the multiple safety and protocol violations? By blaming a dead sailor for a suicide in alleged response to having a gay advance being rebuffed. This far-fetched fabrication had no basis in fact.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
|
HagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 10,028
Loc: Overjoyed, at the bottom ...
Last seen: 1 month, 2 days
|
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Swami]
#4778958 - 10/09/05 09:05 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
The overwhelming majority of the claims of torture I've heard of don't fit my definition. Humiliation and mistreatment, sure. Torture, no.
I'm sure you've seen the link to the Stanford prison study before. Those were only college students who didn't even know each other (I believe, if not, the point still stands). These people being accused of "torture" are guarding prisoners who have attempted and succeeded in killing many of their comrades. People who have even attempted killing them. People intent on the destruction of the country they've sworn to protect.
And you find it unlikely they did this of their own accord?
Your anecdotes don't seem to parallel this situation either. Because even if some higher-up threatened the whistleblower, that individual possesed conviction that refused to let them bow down. They did what was right and obviously whoever received the message also acted appropiately.
And you say negligent?
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: HagbardCeline]
#4779015 - 10/09/05 09:14 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
They did what was right and obviously whoever received the message also acted appropiately.
Because the pictures were going to be made public. No evidence - no investigation.
My anecdotes are related in that those in power in the military will cover their asses as their primary goal. Justice only comes about when one is able to go outside the command structure.
I suppose you and Phred also believe that the four LA policemen who beat Rodney King would STILL have been brought to trail without the videotape...
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
Edited by Swami (10/10/05 12:24 AM)
|
Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
|
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Swami]
#4779276 - 10/09/05 09:56 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Because the pictures were going to be made public. No evidence - no investigation.
Wrong again. The investigations started immediately after the chain of command became aware of what had transpired. I repeat -- it was the Pentagon who immediately announced the incident to the press. That took place months before the pictures surfaced. This isn't a case of Woodward and Bernstein ferreting out informers and searching files -- the Pentagon told them what had occurred. The military was their source. What more do you want?
Back to the topic of the thread -- as those of you who have taken the time to read the actual bill know by now, there is nothing new in it. It's nothing more than yet another standard political grandstanding "feel good" public relations ploy by preening posturing politicians.
Phred
--------------------
|
HagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 10,028
Loc: Overjoyed, at the bottom ...
Last seen: 1 month, 2 days
|
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Swami]
#4779358 - 10/09/05 10:07 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Phred has already clarified this but I'll give you this timeline to help you out.
Have you found faith?
(AG) February 2003: The 372nd Military Police Company, an Army Reserve unit based near Cumberland, Md., was activated for duty in Iraq. The company commander is Capt. Donald J. Reese. The First Sergeant is 1st Sgt. Brian G. Lipinski. (2)
(AG) April 2003: In the looting that followed the regime?s collapse the huge Abu Ghraib prison complex, by then deserted, was stripped of everything that could be removed, including doors, windows, and bricks. The coalition authorities (over time, we assume) had the floors tiled, cells cleaned and repaired, and toilets, showers, and a new medical center added. (1)
(CB) April 13 2003 Camp Bucca, Iraq: A riot occurs and is suppressed by guards. (4)
(CB) May 12 2003, Camp Bucca, Iraq: According to witness reports Master Sgt. Lisa Girman, Sgt. 1st Class Scott McKenzie, Spc. Timothy Canjar and Sgt. Shawna Edmondson, members of the 320th Military Police Battalion, commanded by LTC Jerry Phillabaum, are seen abusing prisoners during a transport. They were subsequently charged with dereliction of duty, assault and other offenses. The four say they acted in self-defense. (3)
(AG/CB) June 2003: Janis Karpinski, an Army reserve brigadier general, was named commander of the 800th Military Police Brigade and put in charge of military prisons in Iraq. Directly under the 800th is the 320th MP Battalion; directly under the 320th is the 372nd MP Company. (1)
(CB) August (4) through September (3) 2003: An article 32 hearing is held for the four guards accused of abuse at Camp Bucca. At such hearings evidence is presented, witnesses are questioned and based on the proceedings the investigating officer may recommend dismissal of the charges, administrative discipline or Courts Martial (3). General courts martial (highest level) are scheduled for Master Sgt. Girman, Sgt. 1st Class McKenzie, and Spc. Canjar on Jan. 20, 25 and 30, respectively. Edmonson accepts a demotion and other-than-honorable discharge in lieu of court martial.
(AG) In October of 2003, the 372nd was ordered to prison-guard duty at Abu Ghraib.(1)
(AG) "Fall": Several thousand prisoners were housed at Abu Ghraib, They fell into three loosely defined categories: common criminals; security detainees suspected of ?crimes against the coalition?; and a small number of suspected ?high-value? leaders of the insurgency against the coalition forces. At last two high "inspections" with possibly conflicting recommendations are conducted. (1)
(AG) November 2003: Coincident with the Muslim holy month of Ramadan the US suffers one of the bloodiest months in the occupation of Iraq. Between October and December of 2003 there were numerous instances of ?sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses? at Abu Ghraib. (1)
(AG) Dec/Jan timeframe (implied various sources): A soldier, recognizing the behavior at Abu Ghraib as criminal, reports it. Army CID investigates the allegations of abuse at Al Ghraib and apparently establishes the case against most of the currently accused, including Army Staff Sergeant Ivan L. Frederick II.
(CB) Late Dec/Early Jan: The three members of the 320th MP Battalion awaiting courts martial (scheduled for late Jan) elect non-judicial punishment in lieu of court martial. They are discharged from military service, two have their ranks lowered, and all three are ordered to forfeit pay for two months. (5 - see also here)
Added Note 6 May 04 17:12 UTC: The above paragraph has resulted in some unintended confusion. The soldiers referenced were waiting courts martial on the Camp Bucca case, not the Abu Ghraib case.
(AG) Jan: General Karpinski was formally admonished and quietly suspended, and a major investigation into the Army?s prison system, authorized by Lieutenant General Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior commander in Iraq, was under way.(1)
(AG) Jan 14: SSG Frederick began writing his journal on Jan. 14, only a few hours after Army authorities fetched him for questioning and searched his quarters at 2:30 a.m. that day. He mailed copies to his mother, father, uncle and sister, and decided not to send it by e-mail for fear that the Army would see it first. (2)
(AG) In January Army SSG Frederick began letters and e-mails to family members, and repeatedly noted that the military-intelligence teams, which included C.I.A. officers and linguists and interrogation specialists from private defense contractors, were the dominant force inside Abu Ghraib. (1)
(AG) 26 Jan CNN reports: The U.S. military's criminal investigation into potential abuse of Iraqi detainees by U.S. soldiers at Abu Gharib prison in Iraq now includes reports from soldiers that military police took photographs showing soldiers hitting detainees, CNN has learned.
Earlier, several Pentagon officials who declined to be identified by name confirmed to CNN that investigators were looking into the reports -- all coming from fellow soldiers -- of photographs showing male and female detainees with some of their clothing removed. (8)
(AG) Late Feb: A fifty-three-page report, the result of the January investigation (later obtained by The New Yorker), written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba was completed in late February. (1)
(AG) 20 March CNN reports: Six U.S. soldiers have been charged with offenses related to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners at an Iraqi prison, the U.S. Army said Saturday.
Multiple sources said the allegations involve soldiers who took photographs of Iraqi prisoners in late 2003, including pictures that show the prisoners partially clothed or physical contact between soldiers and detainees.
<...>
One source said "less than two dozen detainees" were subjected to the alleged abuse, which was reported by U.S. Army soldiers who witnessed it. (9)
(AG) Mar: SSg Frederick's uncle William sent an e-mail message to retired colonel David Hackworth's Web. The NY Times describes Hackworth as "a retired colonel and a muckraker who was always willing to take on the military establishment." That e-mail message would put Mr. Lawson in touch with the CBS News program "60 Minutes II" and help set in motion events that led to the public disclosure of the graphic photographs and an international crisis for the Bush administration. The Times reports on 8 May: (7)
The irony, Mr. Lawson said, is that the public spectacle might have been avoided if the military and the federal government had been responsive to his claims that his nephew was simply following orders. Mr. Lawson said he sent letters to 17 members of Congress about the case earlier this year, with virtually no response, and that he ultimately contacted Mr. Hackworth's Web site out of frustration, leading him to cooperate with a consultant for "60 Minutes II."
"The Army had the opportunity for this not to come out, not to be on 60 Minutes," he said. "But the Army decided to prosecute those six G.I.'s because they thought me and my family were a bunch of poor, dirt people who could not do anything about it. But unfortunately, that was not the case." (7)
(AG) On April 9th, an Article 32 hearing (the military equivalent of a grand jury, in which evidence is presented, witnesses are called, and the decision to pursue court martial is made) in the case against Sergeant Frederick. In addition to a military lawyer, SSgt Frederick retains the services of Gary Myers, one of the military defense attorneys in the Vietnam-era My Lai case. After the hearing, the presiding investigative officer ruled that there was sufficient evidence to convene a court-martial against Frederick. (1)
(AG) Unknown date (14 Apr? (6)): CBS obtains photos of prisoner abuse along with the Taguba report. Seymour Hersh, a writer, also obtains a copy of the Taguba report.
The Washington Post reports:
CBS News delayed for two weeks airing a report about U.S. soldiers' alleged abuse of Iraqi prisoners, following a personal request from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.
Gen. Richard B. Myers called CBS anchor Dan Rather eight days before the report was to air, asking for extra time, said Jeff Fager, executive producer of "60 Minutes II."
Myers cited the safety of Americans held hostage and tension surrounding the Iraqi city of Fallujah, Fager said, adding that he held off as long as he believed possible given it was a competitive story.
With the New Yorker magazine preparing to run a detailed report on the alleged abuses, CBS broadcast its report Wednesday, 28 April, including images taken last year allegedly showing Iraqis stripped naked, hooded and being tormented by U.S. captors at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad. (6)
(This air date suggests CBS obtained the information around 14 April or shortly before. Note on 12 Apr Andy Rooney publishes a previously inexplicable piece called "Our Soldiers in Iraq Aren't Heroes")
(AG) 30 April: The New Yorker posts Hersh's account of the Taguba report online (1).
(AG) 7 May: "There are indications that the information provided was penetrating at some level, however. On January 20 th, for example, CNN reported that a CID investigation was being conducted into allegations of detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib, and mentioned the possible existence of photographs taken of detainees.
Nonetheless, I know that we did not fully brief you on this subject along the way and we should have done so.
I wish we would have known more sooner and been able to tell you more sooner. But we didn't. For that, I apologize." (10)
(AG) Current: Six (and likely a seventh) soldier directly responsible for events at Abu Ghraib await courts martial. Numerous other individuals are facing reprimands and have had their careers effectively terminated. Many news sources imply the reprimands are the only result and ignore the pending courts martial.
Finally, a note from a Wall Street Journal Editorial: The irony of this latest episode is that American soldiers may be held accountable for abusing Iraqis before Saddam's worst henchmen are.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
|
SilentG
Stranger thanfiction
Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 420
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
|
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: daimyo]
#6126997 - 10/02/06 11:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
daimyo said: I've always wondered why they should get information that could save thousands of people if they have to hurt a terrorist.
Of course NO reasonable person would argue that you shouldn't torture a horrible (Hitler-esque) person if it will save tons of innocent lives.
The problem is that typically torture is used to back up bogus allegations. "Tell me XXXX or we torture you more" won't get the truth, it'll just get someone to "corroberate" your story because otherwise you'll hurt them. At best torture may yield new information that could provide new leads - but it could also be misused to support BS or could provide misinformation (John McCain reportedly told his captors that the starting lineup for the Denver Broncos were the names of his commanding officers).
-------------------- Yes, I could go drive somewhere everytime the urge to defecate hits, but...where's the fun in that. -Moth
|
Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 4 months, 30 days
|
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: SilentG]
#6127010 - 10/02/06 11:32 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Your reply is the first in about a year. Please let this thread die.
|
AlteredAgain
Visual Alchemist
Registered: 04/27/06
Posts: 11,181
Loc: Solar Circuit
|
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Redstorm]
#6127091 - 10/02/06 11:57 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious
how times change..
--------------------
|
StroFun
Repeater
Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 977
Loc: Mycotopia.net
|
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: AlteredAgain]
#6127536 - 10/03/06 07:43 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
I see alot of opinions and subjective information on here so this thread is pretty worthless. Bottom line is what you think torture is and until you all firmly agree what exactly is torture you cannot say wether or not this article is false. People are judging this article based on caomparisons to their opinion, well gee i guess thats why nobody can agree with anything in this thread. Its clearly not a partisan issue (torture). A fact which is hurting alot of the arguments.
|
Asante
Omnicyclion prophet
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 87,230
|
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Silversoul]
#6127655 - 10/03/06 08:41 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The Senate defied the White House and voted overwhelmingly to set new limits on interrogating detainees in Iraq and elsewhere, underscoring Congress's growing concerns about reports of abuse of suspected terrorists and others in military custody.
Now that's good news.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
|
|