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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism
    #6116917 - 09/29/06 09:22 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Legislation tolls the bell for the day America died, birth of the dictatorship.

Military Commissions Act of 2006

Quote:

In section 950j. the bill criminalizes any challenge to the legislation's legality by the Supreme Court or any United States court. Alberto Gonzales has already threatened federal judges to shut up and not question Bush's authority on the torture of detainees.

"No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider any claim or cause of action whatsoever, including any action pending on or filed after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, relating to the prosecution, trial, or judgment of a military commission under this chapter, including challenges to the lawfulness of procedures of military commissions under this chapter."

The Bush administration is preemptively overriding any challenge to the legislation by the Supreme Court.

The definition of torture that the legislation cites is US code title 18 section 2340. This is a broad definition of torture and completely lacks the specific clarity of the Geneva Conventions. This definition allows the use of torture that is, "incidental to lawful sanctions." In alliance with the bill's blanket authority for President Bush to define the Geneva Conventions as he sees fit, this legislates the use of torture.

The media has spun the bill as if it outlaws torture - it only outlaws torture for "enemy combatants," and in fact outlaws the retaliation of any military against the United States as "murder." Those deemed "enemy combatants" are not even allowed to fight back yet the government affords itself every power including the go-ahead to torture.

Further actions that result in the classification of an individual as a terrorist include the following.

- Destruction of any property, which is deemed punishable by any means of the military tribunal's choosing.

- Any violent activity whatsoever if it takes place near a designated protected building, such as a charity building.

- A change of the definition of "pillaging" which turns all illegal occupation of property and all theft into terrorism. This makes squatters and petty thieves enemy combatants.

In light of Greg Palast's recent hounding by Homeland Security, after they accused him of potentially giving terrorists key information about U.S. "critical infrastructure" when filming Exxon’s Baton Rouge refinery (clear photos of which were publicly available on Google Maps), sub-section 27 of section 950v. should send chills down the spine of all investigative journalists and even news-gatherers.

"Any person subject to this chapter who with intent or reason to believe that it is to be used to the injury of the United States or to the advantage of a foreign power, collects or attempts to collect information by clandestine means or while acting under false pretenses, for the purpose of conveying such information to an enemy of the United States, or one of the co-belligerents of the enemy, shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a military commission under this chapter may direct."

Subsection 4(b) (26) of section 950v. of HR 6166 - Crimes triable by military commissions - includes the following definition.

"Any person subject to this chapter who, in breach of an allegiance or duty to the United States, knowingly and intentionally aids an enemy of the United States, or one of the co-belligerents of the enemy, shall be punished as a military commission under this chapter may direct."

For an individual to hold an allegiance or duty to the United States they need to be a citizen of the United States. Why would a foreign terrorist have any allegiance to the United States to breach in the first place?

This is another telltale facet that proves the bill applies to U.S. citizens and includes them under the "enemy combatant" designation. We previously cited the comments of Yale law Professor Bruce Ackerman, who wrote in the L.A. Times, "The compromise legislation....authorizes the president to seize American citizens as enemy combatants, even if they have never left the United States. And once thrown into military prison, they cannot expect a trial by their peers or any other of the normal protections of the Bill of Rights."

The New York Times stated that the legislation introduced, "A dangerously broad definition of “illegal enemy combatant” in the bill could subject legal residents of the United States, as well as foreign citizens living in their own countries, to summary arrest and indefinite detention with no hope of appeal. The president could give the power to apply this label to anyone he wanted."

Calling the bill "our generation’s version of the Alien and Sedition Acts," the Times goes on to highlight the rubber stamping of torture.

"Coerced evidence would be permissible if a judge considered it reliable — already a contradiction in terms — and relevant. Coercion is defined in a way that exempts anything done before the passage of the 2005 Detainee Treatment Act, and anything else Mr. Bush chooses."

Since with this bill, in the aggregate, Bush has declared himself to be above the Constitution and the laws of the United States, the allegiance of American citizens is no longer to the flag or the freedoms for which it stands, but to Bush himself, the self-appointed dictator, and any diversion from that allegiance will mandate arrest, torture and conviction in a military tribunal under the terms of this bill.


Similar to the UK's Glorification of Terrorism law, which top lawyers have slammed as vague, open to interpretation and a potential weapon for the government to kidnap supposed subversives, the nebulous context of "wrongfully aiding the enemy," could easily be defined to include publicly absolving an accused terrorist of involvement in a terrorist attack.

That renders the entire 9/11 truth movement an aid to terrorist suspects and subject to military tribunal and torture. In addition, Bush's recently cited National Strategy for Combating Terrorism, which is available on the White House website, labels conspiracy theorists as terrorist recruiters.

This should leave us with no doubt as to which parties are the target of the government's torture and intimidation campaign.

Could protesting a war approved by the government and their bootlickers in Congress and the Senate be considered breaching an allegiance to the United States? Could campaigning against the bombing of a target country be considered wrongfully aiding the enemy?

When the USA PATRIOT act was rushed through at the height of an anthrax scare without any members of Congress even having time to read it, we were assured that it was to fight terrorists and would not be used against the American people.

Since then a plethora of cases whereby the USA PATRIOT act was used against U.S. citizens emerged, including the internment without trial for over three years of Jose Padilla, an American citizen who was finally released after no evidence of terrorism was uncovered.

The so-called "compromise" before the bill was passed and the media acclaim of John McCain as some kind of human rights champion is one of the biggest con jobs ever inflicted upon the American people.

Shortly after the bill was finalized it was spun by Bush security advisor Stephen Hadley as "good news and a good day for the American people." McCain said that it safeguarded "the integrity and letter and spirit of the Geneva Conventions."

In truth the legislation does the exact opposite, giving Bush carte blanche to "interpret the meaning and application of the Geneva Conventions."

In addition, under the bill, "No person may invoke the Geneva Conventions or any protocols thereto in any habeas corpus or other civil action or proceeding to which the United States, or a current or former officer, employee, member of the Armed Forces, or other agent of the United States is a party as a source of rights in any court of the United States or its States or territories."

The bill also allows hearsay evidence (obtained via phony confessions after torture) to be considered by the military tribunal and bars the suspect from even having knowledge of the charges against him - making a case for defense impossible. This is guaranteed to produce 100% conviction rates as you would expect in the dictatorships of Uzbekistan or Zimbabwe and other torture protagonists who are in many cases allied with the Bush administration and provide phony confessions obtained from torture that allow the U.S. government to scare its people with the threat of imaginary Al-Qaeda terror cells waiting to kill them.

Following the Supreme Court's ruling to previously strike down Bush's shadow penal system, Alberto Gonzales is already out threatening federal judges to shut up and get behind the dictator or face the consequences.

Gonzales has the sheer gall to attack judges for even considering to "overturn long-standing traditions or policies without proper support in text or precedent," which is exactly what Gonzales, Bush and the rest of the White House criminals are doing themselves by de facto abolishing the Bill of Rights!

This is a dark day for the United States, the day America died and the bastard birth of a literal dictatorship.




Paul Wattson and Alex Jones - Prisonplanet.com

oh boy..


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Edited by AlteredAgain (09/30/06 07:02 AM)

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #6117252 - 09/29/06 10:58 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

In addition, Bush's recently cited National Strategy for Combating Terrorism, which is available on the White House website, labels conspiracy theorists as terrorist recruiters.

This should leave us with no doubt as to which parties are the target of the government's torture and intimidation campaign.




Well isn't that a boat load of shits and giggles. This has to be a joke!


:bowdown:  :bowdown:  :bowdown: :bowdown:    :bushtaliban:
:bowdown: :bowdown:  :bowdown: :bowdown:
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #6117379 - 09/29/06 11:33 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I have always suspected that the the power elite in this country would use the laws they are ostensibly passing against terrorists against dissenters. You must admit that for seemingly macho hombres (even if they did not go to war themselves) these folks sure are sensitive to criticism.

I have always felt they would pass many laws against terrorists and then broaden that definition to include their critics. It is an old tactic.

I am not sure this is IT. I will need to study it further. But rest assured It is coming.

A perpetual war is a power-hungry person's wet dream.

P.S. Your first link is not working.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Edited by zorbman (09/29/06 11:46 PM)

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #6117417 - 09/29/06 11:44 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i have been called a moonbat more times than everyone else here combined..but not even such a moonbat as me takes much stock in anything that comes out of alex jones' mouth...

i dont think its possible to criminalize an appeal to the SCOTUS..because the SCOTUS has the power to throw out that part of the law..and would prolly do so immediately...furthermore..i very much doubt that the subsection quoted precludes challenging the law based on..for example..the equal protections clause...

however..gonzales' threats against federal judges do..unfortunately..bear some thought ..a federal judge can only be removed by impeachment..which requires a 2/3 majority vote in both houses...no such majority exists now...but can you say "DIEBOLD"??...

i agree that this law could very well be the cutoff point where the US ceases to be a democracy...but we will just have to wait and see how this plays out in the courts.. that..of course..depends on whether king george really does diebold in a 2/3 majority of brownshirts in november...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Annapurna1]
    #6117536 - 09/30/06 12:27 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

This from the New York Times seems to be largely in agreement.

Note:the following article requires registration which can be bypassed using a program called 'bugmenot'- available here:

http://www.bugmenot.com/

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/28/opinio...ogin&oref=login


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Edited by zorbman (09/30/06 12:39 AM)

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: zorbman]
    #6117774 - 09/30/06 03:55 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i fully agree with NYTIMES...but nothing in the NYTIMES article suggests that filing an appeal with the SCOTUS to challenge the torture law could be considered a criminal offense or an act of terrorism...the SCOTUS..however..may choose to agree with congress that they have no jurisdiction in the matter...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #6117813 - 09/30/06 04:35 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

It really shocks me that people can't see past the puppet on things like this.

The doubters think this is all Bush's doing, and I imagine that's exactly what his puppeteers want you to beleive... that once he's gone the problem will not worsen.

A lot of this is not just Bush, it's everyone who has power in the current administration. They're doing through him things that will allow for greater abuse from the next person they plant in the white house.

Perhaps they will have their next tool feign a reversal... make people regain trust in the party, without actually making much change. Then they'll have regained credibility without sacrificing the illegal powers that they've built up.

Think of it this way, when president Eisenhower was president, he was a man who was generally opposed to the militarization of america, and opposed to further warfare. Yet, even though he was the president, he fought strongly and still had very little control over military policy. Now, imagine the abusive implementation of policy that can happen under a president who is simultaneously too corrupt and too incompetent to be capable of preventing it...

Bush may be in on this, but he's not the orchestrator of it.


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I find your lack of faith disturbing

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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Konnrade]
    #6118520 - 09/30/06 01:28 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Bush may be in on this, but he's not the orchestrator of it.




I've been saying this for years.


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"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #6118637 - 09/30/06 02:20 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

It sounds to me as though everyone who passed the first Patriot Act were threatened to do so, unless they wanted to die from anthrax.

Sounds like a military-industrial complex coup to me. I think they are trying to override the government. Will it work? Let's read on... :smirk:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6118792 - 09/30/06 03:24 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
It sounds to me as though everyone who passed the first Patriot Act were threatened to do so, unless they wanted to die from anthrax.




the PATRIOT act isnt :poop: compared to this...

Quote:

Sounds like a military-industrial complex coup to me. I think they are trying to override the government. Will it work? Let's read on... :smirk:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:




needless to say..the prison-military-industrial complex stands to reap windfalls from the contracts on building.. running.. and maintaining the "infrastructure" needed to imprison and torture all these ppl...and the fun doesnt stop there either ..it takes no great stretch of imagination to speculate that these detainees would in turn become a soviet style slave-labour force competing against american workers...


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"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Konnrade]
    #6119021 - 09/30/06 04:43 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Bush may be in on this, but he's not the orchestrator of it.

I agree with that. This is bigger than Bush. There are many people behind the scenes who have been working on this for many years, years before 9/11.

People who don't register on the public's radar like Michael Ledeen, Bill Kristol and Richard Perle.

And I imagine the Democracts have their equivelents who are just aching to taste some of the power that Congress and the American people seem so willing to serve up.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

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InvisibleAlteredAgain
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: zorbman]
    #6119050 - 09/30/06 04:48 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)



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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #6119088 - 09/30/06 05:00 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Here is the entire editorial for those unable to access the link:

Rushing Off a Cliff

Published: September 28, 2006

Here’s what happens when this irresponsible Congress railroads a profoundly important bill to serve the mindless politics of a midterm election: The Bush administration uses Republicans’ fear of losing their majority to push through ghastly ideas about antiterrorism that will make American troops less safe and do lasting damage to our 217-year-old nation of laws — while actually doing nothing to protect the nation from terrorists. Democrats betray their principles to avoid last-minute attack ads. Our democracy is the big loser.

Republicans say Congress must act right now to create procedures for charging and trying terrorists — because the men accused of plotting the 9/11 attacks are available for trial. That’s pure propaganda. Those men could have been tried and convicted long ago, but President Bush chose not to. He held them in illegal detention, had them questioned in ways that will make real trials very hard, and invented a transparently illegal system of kangaroo courts to convict them.

It was only after the Supreme Court issued the inevitable ruling striking down Mr. Bush’s shadow penal system that he adopted his tone of urgency. It serves a cynical goal: Republican strategists think they can win this fall, not by passing a good law but by forcing Democrats to vote against a bad one so they could be made to look soft on terrorism.

Last week, the White House and three Republican senators announced a terrible deal on this legislation that gave Mr. Bush most of what he wanted, including a blanket waiver for crimes Americans may have committed in the service of his antiterrorism policies. Then Vice President Dick Cheney and his willing lawmakers rewrote the rest of the measure so that it would give Mr. Bush the power to jail pretty much anyone he wants for as long as he wants without charging them, to unilaterally reinterpret the Geneva Conventions, to authorize what normal people consider torture, and to deny justice to hundreds of men captured in error.

These are some of the bill’s biggest flaws:

Enemy Combatants: A dangerously broad definition of “illegal enemy combatant” in the bill could subject legal residents of the United States, as well as foreign citizens living in their own countries, to summary arrest and indefinite detention with no hope of appeal. The president could give the power to apply this label to anyone he wanted.

The Geneva Conventions: The bill would repudiate a half-century of international precedent by allowing Mr. Bush to decide on his own what abusive interrogation methods he considered permissible. And his decision could stay secret — there’s no requirement that this list be published.

Habeas Corpus: Detainees in U.S. military prisons would lose the basic right to challenge their imprisonment. These cases do not clog the courts, nor coddle terrorists. They simply give wrongly imprisoned people a chance to prove their innocence.

Judicial Review: The courts would have no power to review any aspect of this new system, except verdicts by military tribunals. The bill would limit appeals and bar legal actions based on the Geneva Conventions, directly or indirectly. All Mr. Bush would have to do to lock anyone up forever is to declare him an illegal combatant and not have a trial.

Coerced Evidence: Coerced evidence would be permissible if a judge considered it reliable — already a contradiction in terms — and relevant. Coercion is defined in a way that exempts anything done before the passage of the 2005 Detainee Treatment Act, and anything else Mr. Bush chooses.

Secret Evidence: American standards of justice prohibit evidence and testimony that is kept secret from the defendant, whether the accused is a corporate executive or a mass murderer. But the bill as redrafted by Mr. Cheney seems to weaken protections against such evidence.

Offenses: The definition of torture is unacceptably narrow, a virtual reprise of the deeply cynical memos the administration produced after 9/11. Rape and sexual assault are defined in a retrograde way that covers only forced or coerced activity, and not other forms of nonconsensual sex. The bill would effectively eliminate the idea of rape as torture.

•There is not enough time to fix these bills, especially since the few Republicans who call themselves moderates have been whipped into line, and the Democratic leadership in the Senate seems to have misplaced its spine. If there was ever a moment for a filibuster, this was it.

We don’t blame the Democrats for being frightened. The Republicans have made it clear that they’ll use any opportunity to brand anyone who votes against this bill as a terrorist enabler. But Americans of the future won’t remember the pragmatic arguments for caving in to the administration.

They’ll know that in 2006, Congress passed a tyrannical law that will be ranked with the low points in American democracy, our generation’s version of the Alien and Sedition Acts

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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #6119156 - 09/30/06 05:27 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for posting this. I feel safer now.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Annapurna1]
    #6120001 - 09/30/06 11:09 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

the SCOTUS has the power to throw out that part of the law..and would prolly do so immediately...




It just has too.

How does,

Someone openly theorizing about a secret government agenda and cover up conspiracy.

equal

Someone secretly conspiring to terrorize a nation with lethal weapons, who is recruiting terrorists?  :confused:

How did those two get turned into the same thing all of a sudden?



The United States of America, Land of the Free, Home of the Brave.

What sort of a coward, needs to lock up and torture a government conspiracy theorist, and strip away freedom of speech away from all just so he can sleep well at night?

That comes along with the job of being a brave leader of the USA, who I would never expect to feel coward down by a Jones or an Icke conspiracy theorist type.

If Bush was a legitimate President and couldn't handle what comes along with the Job he should quit, not rewrite the Constitution to be able to handle it.  :crazy:

Who wants and respects a Comander and Chief who says, ":bitch:, Jones and Icke are saying not nice things about me.:bitch: Icke called me a Lizard. :bitch: I want them detained without trial and tortured :bitch:

He just looks silly for proposing that section.

I also think he is just a puppet and his puppet character is embaracing the U.S Presidential Office.  :ashamed:

What is the proposed new law in that section suppose to be protecting our lives from anyway?

Who here fears for their life by a Jones or Icke type? What exactly do we need life threatening protection from a government conspiracy theorist for? 

However, it is easy to understand why a government would want them silenced to protect themselves if anything being said by them is true.

In such a case, if anything they theroize is true, those theorists would be working to serve, warn and protect us from our own government. Who in their right mind would want people exposing possible government conspiracies silenced?

I think most everyone at least appreciates their right and freedom to speak and at least be able to hear them out, even if they don't appreciate or agree with whats being said after a review.


What does the government want the power to do, detain and torture those two and people like them to find out who the leaks in the illuminati are? :rofl2:

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6120153 - 10/01/06 12:08 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Our founding fathers must be spinning in their graves.

What makes it even more pathetic is that Bush has less excuse than any person now living to compromise our nation's principles- he's the son of a former President for God's sake! He should know better than anyone alive that our freedoms are a sacred birthright.

Seems the only thing he took away from his father's presidency is that war is cool and "kicking ass" is fun.

Another thing. When I hear him talk about the greatness of America he usually points to our power as the reason, not our freedoms or democratic principles. It's always power and force with this guy. Force and power. Might makes right. The ends justify the means.

I heard recently that President Bush has been reading a lot lately. You know he has been criticized as someone without much book learning? According to the report, he had read..get this..about 60 books this year as of September!

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/060817/17bushbooks.htm

Hey, Mister Bush.
I have a couple of additions to your reading list:

Try reading the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights.


--------------------
“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Edited by zorbman (10/01/06 12:20 AM)

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #6120175 - 10/01/06 12:21 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Quote:

the SCOTUS has the power to throw out that part of the law..and would prolly do so immediately...




It just has too.




unfortunately..they would only throw out the part of the law that says you cant bring it before the SCOTUS..and then uphold the rest of it just as quickly ..

Quote:

The provisions of the Constitution which confer on the Congress and the President powers to enable this country to wage war are as much part of the Constitution as provisions looking to a nation at peace. And we have had recent occasion to quote approvingly the statement of former Chief Justice Hughes that the war power of the Government is 'the power to wage war successfully.' Hirabayashi v. United States, supra, 320 U.S. at page 93, 63 S.Ct. at page 1382 and see Home Bldg. & L. Ass'n v. Blaisdell, 290 U.S. 398, 426, 54 S.Ct. 231, 235, 88 A.L.R. 1481. Therefore, the validity of action under the war power must be judged wholly in the context of war. That action is not to be stigmatized as lawless because like action in times of peace would be lawless. To talk about a military order that expresses an allowable judgment of war needs by those entrusted with the duty of conducting war as 'an [323 U.S. 214, 225] unconstitutional order' is to suffuse a part of the Constitution with an atmosphere of unconstitutionality. The respective spheres of action of military authorities and of judges are of course very different. But within their sphere, military authorities are no more outside the bounds of obedience to the Constitution than are judges within theirs. 'The war power of the United States, like its other powers ... is subject to applicable constitutional limitations', Hamilton v. Kentucky Distilleries, Co., 251 U.S. 146, 156, 40 S.Ct. 106, 108. To recognize that military orders are 'reasonably expedient military precautions' in time of war and yet to deny them constitutional legitimacy makes of the Constitution an instrument for dialetic subtleties not reasonably to be attributed to the hard-headed Framers, of whom a majority had had actual participation in war. If a military order such as that under review does not transcend the means appropriate for conducting war, such action by the military is as constitutional as would be any authorized action by the Interstate Commerce Commission within the limits of the constitutional power to regulate commerce. And being an exercise of the war power explicitly granted by the Constitution for safeguarding the national life by prosecuting war effectively, I find nothing in the Constitution which denies to Congress the power to enforce such a valid military order by making its violation an offense triable in the civil courts. Compare Interstate Commerce Commission v. Brimson, 154 U.S. 447, 14 S.Ct. 1125; Id., 155 U.S. 3, 15 S.Ct. 19, and Monongahela Bridge Co. v. United States, 216 U.S. 177, 30 S.Ct. 356. To find that theConstitution does not forbid the military measures now complained of does not carry with it approval of that which Congress and the Executive did. That is their business, not ours.




if you think the above came out of john yoos' rectum..guess again...its the late justice felix frankfurters' concurring opinion in the 1944 korematsu decision..which legallized extrajudicial imprisonment of japanese americans during WWII...


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: zorbman]
    #6120349 - 10/01/06 01:34 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zorbman said:
Another thing. When I hear him talk about the greatness of America he usually points to our power as the reason, not our freedoms or democratic principles. It's always power and force with this guy. Force and power. Might makes right. The ends justify the means.





You're quite right. It's sickeningly reminiscent of soviet propaganda.


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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Luddite]
    #6120607 - 10/01/06 04:24 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Luddite said:
Thanks for posting this. I feel safer now.






lolz


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"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Basilides]
    #6126814 - 10/02/06 10:46 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

This shit is ABSOLUTELY INSANE I cannot belive this actually happend, I feel the urge to flee. But I guess its better to be inside the US then on the other side of the bombs

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Turn]
    #6126968 - 10/02/06 11:23 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

"No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider any claim or cause of action whatsoever, including any action pending on or filed after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, relating to the prosecution, trial, or judgment of a military commission under this chapter, including challenges to the lawfulness of procedures of military commissions under this chapter."

How is it possible for a piece of legislation to alter or limit the authority of the Supreme court? I thought that was outlined in the Constitution and would take an amendment to be altered.

Not like it really matters if you pack the court full of crazy neo-cons.


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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: SilentG]
    #6127220 - 10/03/06 12:57 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

no..its not possible to draft a law which is beyond the reach of the SCOTUS..because the SCOTUS (or any federal court..for that matter) could simply rule that part of the law unconstitutional if it so chooses...however..the SCOTUS could also choose to agree with the statute and refuse to hear any cases on those grounds..like it did in the korematsu case..above...


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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Turn]
    #6127233 - 10/03/06 01:03 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

But I guess its better to be inside the US then on the other side of the bombs

Yes, we will all be perfectly safe inside our detention camps.  :laugh:


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch

Edited by zorbman (10/03/06 02:36 AM)

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: zorbman]
    #6127286 - 10/03/06 01:36 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

safe as a grave.

so let's do ourselves a favor and be alive.

"we need no imposed safety, we are ultimately responsible for my own."

:mushroom2:


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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: zorbman]
    #6133566 - 10/04/06 07:00 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, Halliburton is in the process of building camps all over the U.S. That combined with the wall that is going up between us and Mexico, and talk of another type of wall between us and Canada, is really turning into a nightmare.


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"There are no facts, only interpretations."
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Xygyg]
    #6133675 - 10/04/06 07:34 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

^i got laughed off the board before when i suggested that the walls were meant to keep ppl in...


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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Annapurna1]
    #6133691 - 10/04/06 07:39 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
^i got laughed off the board before when i suggested that the walls were meant to keep ppl in...



As well you should have been.

Anyone who's ever been to one of the US/Mexico border crossings can tell you that the system is VERY clearly and obviously designed to keep people out. Travelling into Mexico takes no time, and in many instances you may not even talk to anyone. Trying to get back into the US, however, there are frequent delays, you always risk a search, and you always have to talk with someone.

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Economist]
    #6133753 - 10/04/06 07:55 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Well how hard would it be to prevent exit as well as entry. I know that it sounds really far-fetched, but a lot of the things going on in the U.S. now were once viewed the same way.


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"There are no facts, only interpretations."
from Nietzsche's Nachlass

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Xygyg]
    #6133768 - 10/04/06 08:00 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Are you seriously suggesting that the US government has plans in place to prevent its citizens from leaving the country?

How does that make sense at all?

When, in the history of the US has the net migration rate even been negative? What could possibly be happening that would cause a significant, desirable, quantity of the US population to up and leave?

Not leave in the ordinary fashion either, mind you, but leave via some sort of desperate border-dash...

There's just no scenario where this would be even remotely logical.

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: AlteredAgain]
    #6133842 - 10/04/06 08:21 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Now... I agree that this bill is scary, but I'm not so clear on how the wording of the bill allows for HUAC-esque discretion in considering non-allegiance to be terrorism.

Could someone please excise a quote with only the relevant wording involved, and maybe explain it?

My legalese is fairly poor. Each time I've read it, I've missed that part.


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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Economist]
    #6133895 - 10/04/06 08:37 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I guess that I'm just worried about what happens when our government starts to imprison those who speak out against it. If there ever comes a time when those government contracted interment camps are used to confine people who dissent, then I'm sure you will start to see a marked increase in people trying to flee the country.
I'm not trying to argue or sound irrational, but it is just a concern I have--especially now that the right of habeus corpus has been eradicated.


--------------------

"There are no facts, only interpretations."
from Nietzsche's Nachlass

Edited by Xygyg (10/04/06 08:42 PM)

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Economist]
    #6134049 - 10/04/06 09:03 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
Are you seriously suggesting that the US government has plans in place to prevent its citizens from leaving the country?




and why wouldnt they be??...other govts in the past that embraced policies similar to our own torture bill have also tried to keep their ppl in...and the US is now squarely in that camp...


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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Annapurna1]
    #6134123 - 10/04/06 09:17 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Many people on this board seem to be hopelessly inured with the unfounded assumption that "it can't happen here." It is a matter of unquestioned faith that the U.S. is the greatest (whatever that means), freest country in the history of the planet and immune to the predations of those who lust for power. This national religiosity requires willful ignorance as to human nature and the history of the world as it relates to our present circumstances in the U.S. Slapping mental blinders on oneself is common to all dogmatic belief systems, be they nationalistic, theistic or economic in nature. I readily admit that I have succumbed to this myself but I am getting better at warding it off


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Trepiodos]
    #6134182 - 10/04/06 09:29 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

time to move on, power is out, ethics is in.


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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Annapurna1]
    #6134194 - 10/04/06 09:32 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
and why wouldnt they be??...other govts in the past that embraced policies similar to our own torture bill have also tried to keep their ppl in...and the US is now squarely in that camp...



Oh get off it.

What could possibly be gained by keeping dissenters in?

If anything, were we to buy the argument (which is itself quite the stretch) that the current administration will take whatever steps are necessary to "stay in power" then wouldn't it benefit them if all the dissenters left, leaving only supporters?

This isn't blind belief that "it can't happen here", this is simply about asking who would benefit and why.

Who could possibly benefit from preventing the American people from moving elsewhere? What would anyone gain by doing that?

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Economist]
    #6134213 - 10/04/06 09:37 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

You might as well ask, "what did it gain the former Soviet Union and Soviet satellites by instituting similar policies?"


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Trepiodos]
    #6134239 - 10/04/06 09:41 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Trepiodos said:
You might as well ask, "what did it gain the former Soviet Union and Soviet satellites by instituting similar policies?"



I'm sorry, but that just doesn't compare at all.

The Soviets and their satellites were attempting to cover up the active lies they told about their domestic standards, as well as the standards enjoyed elsewhere in the world.

The US has not engaged in an active program of lying about our living standards to the rest of the world, nor has our government made false claims about the living standards within the homelands of our enemies.

So, I ask again, how would anyone benefit from keeping US citizens from leaving the US?

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Economist]
    #6134366 - 10/04/06 10:01 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
I'm sorry, but that just doesn't compare at all.



Why not, because you say so?

Quote:

The Soviets and their satellites were attempting to cover up the active lies they told about their domestic standards, as well as the standards enjoyed elsewhere in the world.



Is that your claim as to why they instituted such policies? You are going to have to back up that claim as I am not convinced.

Quote:

The US has not engaged in an active program of lying about our living standards to the rest of the world, nor has our government made false claims about the living standards within the homelands of our enemies.



You are wrong. I suggest you check your facts about how economic statistics are compiled, what is and is not included in such things as national debt figures, CPI, and GDP and how these figures are massaged with omissions, guesses and economic sleight of hand. If you are honest WITH YOURSELF, you should come to the conclusion that you are being lied to.

Quote:

So, I ask again, how would anyone benefit from keeping US citizens from leaving the US?



Ask yourself, and BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF, how would anyone have benefited in other countries that pursued similar policies? Remember, not all benefits can be measured in monetary units. Power, prestige and control are ends that people pursue. They are things that some value, but which are difficult to quantify in purely numeric terms of money or estimated wealth. Value is subjective.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Economist]
    #6134390 - 10/04/06 10:04 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Even if I'm way off the mark about the purpose of the wall, what's with the concentration camps being built (and the ones already here)? Who exactly are they intended for? If we are attacked again (God forbid!), then you can almost guarantee that martial law would come into play, and dissent would be dealt with in a much harsher manner.


--------------------

"There are no facts, only interpretations."
from Nietzsche's Nachlass

Edited by Xygyg (10/04/06 10:06 PM)

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Trepiodos]
    #6134404 - 10/04/06 10:06 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

You still haven't told us how the administration would benefit by keeping people in.

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Redstorm]
    #6134475 - 10/04/06 10:17 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I am giving a speech tommorrow about how bad this bill is, trying to get the word out. As for why to keep people in the USA, I don't know mayby to try and keep the image up that everything is going well in the naiton. What about the internet you say? Well they already started monitering and cracking down on it....But I don't know, sounds pretty far fetched. Mayby not to keep everyone from leaving, but making it harder to leave for those the Government wants to catch

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Redstorm]
    #6134476 - 10/04/06 10:17 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
You still haven't told us how the administration would benefit by keeping people in.



I perceive such things as not being beneficial, but this does not mean that others do not value it. What benefit is there in arresting people for victimless crimes? Obviously there is benefit to those who construct prisons and those who pursue power. Some people just plain want to control others, I do not and I do not place value or benefit in the idea. Value (and by extension, the concept of 'benefit') is subjective. If you could tell me why other countries have pursued such policies, you and I will both have a better understanding than I presently do.


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And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Trepiodos]
    #6134517 - 10/04/06 10:25 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Trepiodos said:
Why not, because you say so?

Is that your claim as to why they instituted such policies? You are going to have to back up that claim as I am not convinced.



Oh, don't worry, you don't have to take my word for it:

From: http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=936&full=1
I'll quote the most pertinent bit:
"[T]he fact that so many Jewish emigres were, in effect, forsaking the Soviet Union in favor of a new life in America was an embarrassing moral and propaganda defeat for Moscow."

This is from Professor Magstadt, righting for the Journal of Policy Analysis in 1986.

Quote:

Trepiodos said:
You are wrong. I suggest you check your facts about how economic statistics are compiled, what is and is not included in such things as national debt figures, CPI, and GDP and how these figures are massaged with omissions, guesses and economic sleight of hand. If you are honest WITH YOURSELF, you should come to the conclusion that you are being lied to.



Oh, I know I'm going to LOVE this.

It's your turn to prove something. Prove to me that the standard of living in the US is largely fabricated, and please back up your claims about the GDP and the CPI.

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Redstorm]
    #6134520 - 10/04/06 10:26 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Economist seems to be under the impression that people will not pursue a course of action unless there are tangible rewards - something that can be quantified by numbers or actions have a rational reason. However, even a cursory examination of human history and modern societies will reveal that humans (though capable of rational thought) are not rational animals. Many times, they instead rationalize actions which are based on emotional impulses or naked desire.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Redstorm]
    #6134549 - 10/04/06 10:34 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
You still haven't told us how the administration would benefit by keeping people in.




There are so many reasons why it would benefit from keeping us in.

In basic terms,

One would be for cannon-fodder

Another would be for a workforce, they need their economy.

Another would be that they don't want us going to other countries because we dislike this one. That breeds hatred for the US. Funny that they would think that but for some reason the US government doesn't believe that everyone hates us.

I recently traveled to Europe and everyone I met, they asked me where I was from and I had to use the following statement, "I am from the US but I don't agree with Bush, and I do not agree with what our government is doing." This was so I wouldn't be spit on, beat up who knows. When it came down to blending with the locals they were very apprehensive, they don't have any faith in us, and the government has done a fine job and making them believe that we are all right behind them.

I guess that answers that other dude's statement.. That our government hasn't lied about our living conditions, for one yes they have (aided by the media and Hollywood), and two, they also lied and told everyone that we all as citizens believe that our government is right in what its doing.

There was one place I stayed in Germany in a small town, and the person that owned the place had to have several locks on the doors because quote, "They know I have Americans staying here."


--------------------
"On the Mountain of Madness, I came to my senses, I'd been Hypnotised by people's sadness, that slowly condenses, In their mission to Dramatise their lives. " - Waterclime

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: wolfsblood]
    #6134574 - 10/04/06 10:37 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Oh another good reason to keep us in: To prevent a brain drain, all the smart ones will leave first, can't let that happend.

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Economist]
    #6134621 - 10/04/06 10:46 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:



It's your turn to prove something. Prove to me that the standard of living in the US is largely fabricated, and please back up your claims about the GDP and the CPI.




http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15093566/

http://www.forbes.com/celebrities/2005/06/11/cz_05celeb_all_slide.html?partner=msnbc

http://www.mtv.com/ontv/dyn/cribs/series.jhtml#/ontv/dyn/cribs/series.jhtml

http://www.movieweb.com/movies/boxoffice/alltime.php

ok so this is basic but guess what, I go to Europe I got to South America, The only thing that the people know about us in those places is our Media, our frickin' movies, our music, our celebs, whats hot whats not.. yadda yadda we look like a bunch of RICH, Lazy bastards. When the majority of the nation is well below that, even the middle class is struggling now, but you go to Sweden their gonna think your made of money.

You have no idea the power of the media.


--------------------
"On the Mountain of Madness, I came to my senses, I'd been Hypnotised by people's sadness, that slowly condenses, In their mission to Dramatise their lives. " - Waterclime

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Turn]
    #6134634 - 10/04/06 10:47 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Was that joke an attempt to discredit everything I said? I think it was... Silly you...


--------------------
"On the Mountain of Madness, I came to my senses, I'd been Hypnotised by people's sadness, that slowly condenses, In their mission to Dramatise their lives. " - Waterclime

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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Xygyg]
    #6134640 - 10/04/06 10:48 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

what's with the concentration camps being built (and the ones already here)? Who exactly are they intended for?




Martial law


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Turn]
    #6134659 - 10/04/06 10:51 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Turn said:
Oh another good reason to keep us in: To prevent a brain drain, all the smart ones will leave first, can't let that happend.




Why would the smart ones leave? The most money is to be made here.

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: wolfsblood]
    #6134702 - 10/04/06 10:58 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

wolfsblood said:
One would be for cannon-fodder



What!?!

Can you provide ANY evidence at all that the US government needs to plan for the defence of an invasion so large it would necessitate forced military service?

Quote:

wolfsblood said:
Another would be for a workforce, they need their economy.



They lose that economy when the work force becomes imprisoned. Look up the work of Robert Fogel, won the Nobel Prize for Economics in 1993. He did extensive work on the economic viability of slave labor, considered to be ground braking and authoritative.

His conclusion was that slave labor *was* economically viable, however it wasn't nearly as profitable as free labor.

Quote:

wolfsblood said:
Another would be that they don't want us going to other countries because we dislike this one. That breeds hatred for the US. Funny that they would think that but for some reason the US government doesn't believe that everyone hates us.



This doesn't make sense at all, because if all the dissenters leave, then it becomes easier to control the remainder, as they are most likely the ones who agree with you. This was explored in the policy paper I linked earlier in the thread. Essentially, the Soviets were happy to let the Jews emmigrate, because it meant less dissent over all, despite the fact that they didn't want anyone else to move out.

Quote:

wolfsblood said:
I guess that answers that other dude's statement.. That our government hasn't lied about our living conditions, for one yes they have (aided by the media and Hollywood), and two, they also lied and told everyone that we all as citizens believe that our government is right in what its doing.



Oh, so the media is building the detention centers to keep people in America?

Oh, no, wait, it's the government building detention centers. And what has the government (NOT the media) said that is a lie about our living standards?

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OfflineEconomist
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Trepiodos]
    #6134711 - 10/04/06 11:00 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Trepiodos said:
Economist seems to be under the impression that people will not pursue a course of action unless there are tangible rewards - something that can be quantified by numbers or actions have a rational reason. However, even a cursory examination of human history and modern societies will reveal that humans (though capable of rational thought) are not rational animals. Many times, they instead rationalize actions which are based on emotional impulses or naked desire.



I would suggest that you have not performed a "cursory" examination of human history if you think that people behave irrationally.

People can be wrong. They can honestly believe that a course of action would benefit them, when infact it will not.

But nowhere in history have a group of people set out on a policy course specifically because they believed in advance that it was bad for them.

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Economist]
    #6134764 - 10/04/06 11:16 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
I'll quote the most pertinent bit:
"[T]he fact that so many Jewish emigres were, in effect, forsaking the Soviet Union in favor of a new life in America was an embarrassing moral and propaganda defeat for Moscow."

This is from Professor Magstadt, righting for the Journal of Policy Analysis in 1986.



So, you base your opinion on another's opinion. I do not disagree that this may be one factor among several. However, here's another tidbit from the same article which indicates that the situation is not a simplistic as you paint it to be,
Quote:

Ludmilla Alexeyeva, a former Soviet dissident who has written an authoritative account of the human-rights struggle in the USSR, notes that the Jewish emigration movement "is made up of people whose goal is not to improve life in the USSR but to leave." Her research led to a crucial insight: "The majority of those who apply to emigrate were less concerned with civic problems than with their own lives and those of their families"


So, one could take from this that the Soviets were responding the same way to their detractors as the neo-cons do today, with raw nationalistic hate for those who did not see things the same way. What is one way to punish those you disagree with? By denying that which they desire.

Quote:

It's your turn to prove something. Prove to me that the standard of living in the US is largely fabricated, and please back up your claims about the GDP and the CPI.



I did not claim that the standard of living in the US is 'largely fabricated' that is your straw man and not my contention. I do claim that statistics are massaged to make things appear better than they are. I covered the issue of national debt in a previous post that I noticed you (conveniently) did not respond to. Clicky, click.

Why are fuel and food not currently included in the core CPI? Do you know anyone who exists without food and fuel? Why does the CPI exclude income and social security taxes? Do these not effect what is available to spend on other things? Are these not part of the price of living in the U.S.? Do the prices of stocks, bonds, real estate, and life insurance not influence overall spending and purchasing power? The prices of these are, after all, part of the overall prices paid by consumers in the economy.

As far as GDP, just look at 'hedonics.' The government bumps up the dollar denominated value of goods to reflect the government's opinion of what they are 'really' worth. This increases the GDP (to the propaganda benefit of the government). However, back in the real world, people and businesses pay less than the government's figures lead you to believe.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Economist]
    #6134766 - 10/04/06 11:16 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
Quote:

wolfsblood said:
One would be for cannon-fodder



What!?!

Can you provide ANY evidence at all that the US government needs to plan for the defence of an invasion so large it would necessitate forced military service?

Quote:

wolfsblood said:
Another would be for a workforce, they need their economy.



They lose that economy when the work force becomes imprisoned. Look up the work of Robert Fogel, won the Nobel Prize for Economics in 1993. He did extensive work on the economic viability of slave labor, considered to be ground braking and authoritative.

His conclusion was that slave labor *was* economically viable, however it wasn't nearly as profitable as free labor.

Quote:

wolfsblood said:
Another would be that they don't want us going to other countries because we dislike this one. That breeds hatred for the US. Funny that they would think that but for some reason the US government doesn't believe that everyone hates us.



This doesn't make sense at all, because if all the dissenters leave, then it becomes easier to control the remainder, as they are most likely the ones who agree with you. This was explored in the policy paper I linked earlier in the thread. Essentially, the Soviets were happy to let the Jews emmigrate, because it meant less dissent over all, despite the fact that they didn't want anyone else to move out.

Quote:

wolfsblood said:
I guess that answers that other dude's statement.. That our government hasn't lied about our living conditions, for one yes they have (aided by the media and Hollywood), and two, they also lied and told everyone that we all as citizens believe that our government is right in what its doing.



Oh, so the media is building the detention centers to keep people in America?

Oh, no, wait, it's the government building detention centers. And what has the government (NOT the media) said that is a lie about our living standards?





Are you really this slow or are you just playing the devils advocate? Even the stupidest person in the US knows that the government has "some sort" of control over the media, why the hell would they want to start a cap on the internet? BECAUSE THEY WANT TO CONTROL IT!

Yesh...

And its what the government ISN'T saying about our living standards, our government isn't trying to deal with poverty. Maybe some ex-presidents are trying to help people in foreign countries with their poverty, but they wont admit it is a problem here. Rather they just keep cutting Wal-Mart a break and telling them, "heck your giving the un-employable, employment!" Well golly, ain't that swell. That someone that should have support from this government (unlike, the dumb asses I know on welfare, who just know how to play the system) has to work a shitty job that doesn't even pay minimum wage and wont let them work enough hours to qualify for health insurance, so they end up dying poor and alone. What does the government do about that? They give Wal-Mart a pat on the back, and a tax break.

You are rewarded for already being wealthy in this country because it holds up the image of the "American dream" and those how aren't really cutting it, end up sorely forgotten in all affairs.

And the cannon fodder comment ain't about people invading here, but about them needing to send us there when they use up all the troops "rebuilding" the countries that they destroyed along their path to Holy righteousness.


--------------------
"On the Mountain of Madness, I came to my senses, I'd been Hypnotised by people's sadness, that slowly condenses, In their mission to Dramatise their lives. " - Waterclime

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OfflineTrepiodos
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Economist]
    #6134829 - 10/04/06 11:33 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
I would suggest that you have not performed a "cursory" examination of human history if you think that people behave irrationally.



I guess you've never heard of such things as 'war' or 'bar room brawls' or 'economic bubbles' or 'love' or 'mid-life crisis.' That is to your detriment. I said that humans rationalize their actions. Quite often, humans engage in behavior on emotional grounds and then rationalize afterwards. This is not the same as making a blanket statement that "people behave irrationally." In fact people behave in a variety of ways, we are animals, subject to emotion, but with the power of abstract thought.

Quote:

They can honestly believe that a course of action would benefit them, when infact it will not.



What do you mean by 'benefit'? People act in a manner that pleases or they think will please them. 'Benefit' depends upon what an individual values, value is subjective.

Quote:

But nowhere in history have a group of people set out on a policy course specifically because they believed in advance that it was bad for them.



I did not imply or argue otherwise. I suggest that you be more careful in examining my arguments. However, there are cases in history where people have set on a possible fruitless course not because they believed it was bad for them, but because they subjectively valued certain ideals above mere survival.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Trepiodos]
    #6134849 - 10/04/06 11:39 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Trepiodos said:
So, one could take from this that the Soviets were responding the same way to their detractors as the neo-cons do today, with raw nationalistic hate for those who did not see things the same way. What is one way to punish those you disagree with? By denying that which they desire.



Now I'm beginning to understand. You have the uncanny ability to read the minds of the neo-cons and understand their "true intentions" as a result. Clearly they don't actually believe they're acting in anyone's best interest, and you know that's not what they believe because you can read their minds.

Quote:

Trepiodos said:
I did not claim that the standard of living in the US is 'largely fabricated' that is your straw man and not my contention. I do claim that statistics are massaged to make things appear better than they are. I covered the issue of national debt in a previous post that I noticed you (conveniently) did not respond to.



Because the national debt was your strawman. Mainstream economic arguments do not look at the national debt as calculated by Congress, but instead as a % of GDP, which is a far more telling figure. I knew in advance that you would make the claim about congress, despite the fact that it doesn't have a bearing on anything in real terms.

Quote:

Trepiodos said:
Why are fuel and food not currently included in the core CPI? Do you know anyone who exists without food and fuel? Why does the CPI exclude income and social security taxes? Do these not effect what is available to spend on other things? Are these not part of the price of living in the U.S.? Do the prices of stocks, bonds, real estate, and life insurance not influence overall spending and purchasing power? The prices of these are, after all, part of the overall prices paid by consumers in the economy.



Are you just trying to be difficult, or do you really not understand this? Fuel and food both have seasonally-based price fluctuations, therefore it's useless to make economic projections based upon a seasonal adjustment which will phase out in a few months anyway.

The core CPI is thus offered as a supplement to the CPI (which does include food and fuel) in order to give a better idea of what the constant rate of inflation is, sans seasonal adjustments. Both statistics are meant to be taken together, not separately, hence why they are both reported in the same press releases.

Quote:

Trepiodos said:
As far as GDP, just look at 'hedonics.' The government bumps up the dollar denominated value of goods to reflect the government's opinion of what they are 'really' worth. This increases the GDP (to the propaganda benefit of the government). However, back in the real world, people and businesses pay less than the government's figures lead you to believe.



Where are you even getting this from? Do you even know how GDP is calculated? It doesn't use a market basket like CPI, but instead it uses wage and earnings estimates. This is all readily available on the Bureau of Economic Analysis's website.

Furthermore, the BEA regularly submits papers to the American Economics Association (an independent scholarly group) for peer-review of methodologies. The last paper was submitted in 2003 and their methodologies were found to be well thought out and executed. Can you show me any evidence this is not the case?

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Economist]
    #6134924 - 10/05/06 12:03 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
Now I'm beginning to understand.



Not in the least.

Quote:

You have the uncanny ability to read the minds of the neo-cons and understand their "true intentions" as a result.



I did not say that nor did I imply that. I have experienced the hate first hand of knee-jerk nationalists merely because I had a difference of opinion. Learn to read.

Quote:

Clearly they don't actually believe they're acting in anyone's best interest, and you know that's not what they believe because you can read their minds.



Clearly you are having difficulty addressing what I actually state.


Quote:

Because the national debt was your strawman.



I was pointing out how you are lied to, but you refuse to question the official line.

Quote:

Mainstream economic arguments do not look at the national debt as calculated by Congress...



Did you even read the link? The government's debt figures DO NOT FOLLOW GENERAL ACCOUNTING PRACTICES. Educate yourself.

Quote:

despite the fact that it doesn't have a bearing on anything in real terms.



Huh? Real terms? Earning a living, feeding a family, debt piled upon debt. The lowest savings rate since the 1930's. America spending more on debt service to foreigners in relation to foreign investment than anytime within the last 90 years... You really need to come down from your faux ivory tower.

Quote:

Fuel and food both have seasonally-based price fluctuations, therefore it's useless to make economic projections based upon a seasonal adjustment which will phase out in a few months anyway.



So you believe that REAL WORLD PEOPLE, living REAL LIVES, trying to make ends meet, should buy your inane rationalization? Sorry, back on earth, real people REQUIRE food and fuel to survive. These ARE REAL COSTS born by REAL PEOPLE EVERY SINGLE DAY.

Quote:

The core CPI is thus offered as a supplement to the CPI



The point, is that the government touts the core CPI as proof of it's proper handling of the economy. It is a politically contrived number.

Quote:

Where are you even getting this from?



The government's own website. You should investigate.

Quote:

Do you even know how GDP is calculated? It doesn't use a market basket like CPI, but instead it uses wage and earnings estimates.



Wrong. Check your facts. GDP is comprised of more that wage and earnings.

Quote:

The last paper was submitted in 2003 and their methodologies were found to be well thought out and executed. Can you show me any evidence this is not the case?



You want me to prove a negative? I have already brought up points and you choose to ignore them. You don't even have a grasp of what it means to have to support a family in the REAL WORLD (not the mythical CPI world of out of touch academics). You're comments on GDP show that your economic education is faltering. Stop being a sycophant and start being a free thinker, question and investigate.


--------------------

And as things fell apart,
Nobody paid much attention...

- David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Redstorm]
    #6134957 - 10/05/06 12:15 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
You still haven't told us how the administration would benefit by keeping people in.




because the first thing that becomes obvious once you set foot in a foreign country is that king george is lying ..there are other countries where you get free education.. free health care.. where you can do all the drugs you want to.. and where you cant be imprisoned for the rest of your life without a trial and never be tortured....


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Annapurna1]
    #6134962 - 10/05/06 12:16 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

You don't even have to leave the country to figure that out.

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Redstorm]
    #6134973 - 10/05/06 12:20 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i wouldnt be too sure about that..theres still alot of ppl..maybe still a majority..that still take all of KGs bullshit as gospel...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Annapurna1]
    #6134986 - 10/05/06 12:26 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The polls certainly say otherwise.

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Redstorm]
    #6135003 - 10/05/06 12:37 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

hopefully those polls will hold on nov 7...but you still cant argue that KG doesnt want ppl to remain under a delusion that would be broken if they were ever to travel...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

Edited by Annapurna1 (10/05/06 02:57 PM)

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OfflineTurn
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Annapurna1]
    #6135793 - 10/05/06 09:47 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

This thread got way off topic, just what those Neocons want, distracted by other shit and conspiracy theories

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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Trepiodos]
    #6138258 - 10/05/06 11:16 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Trepiodos, I don't understand what you're trying to accomplish. When someone disagrees with you, you resort to calling their argument hate, or you dismiss then as a sycophant. Not only is that not constructive, but it seems identical to the tools you complain about the Neocons using (anyone who disagrees with them is hateful of liberty, or dismissed as a terrorist).

I don't understand why you can't believe that there might be some people out there who honestly support the Neocons because they feel its the right course of action.

I still don't understand the claim you're trying to make about the CPI. The CPI measures food and fuel along with everything else, and the core CPI is used to try and account for seasonal adjustments (i.e. heating oil will always be more expensive in the winter, as will produce that has to be shipped from South America). You're trying to make some point about the "real world" but you're missing the forest for the trees. The reality is that the CPI takes food and fuel into account, and no one is asking you to look at the core CPI in a vacuum.

Your complaints about the Federal Deficit seem confused. You started in with something about consumer debt (which isn't a part of the Federal Deficit). When I referred to "real terms" I was talking about economic arguments. No one takes the Federal Deficit for its face value, the more useful measurement is as a % of GDP, this is reflected in everything from Federal Reserve speeches to run-of-the-mill news reports. Even a 5-second search on Wikipedia reveals that the % of GDP figure is farm more important than the aggregate number ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiscal_Policy_in_the_United_States ).

You're also completely ignoring arguments that a high level of foreign-serviced debt might be a good thing (it helps keep the dollar strong, for example). I'm not saying these arguments are correct, but you seem to dismiss them out of hand.

Then there's the issue of GDP. I really don't know where you're going with this. Yes, more than wages are calculated in GDP, but I didn't want to take the time to type everything out. Nonetheless, you are claiming that somehow the Federal Government sets prices of consumer goods for the purposes of calculating GDP. This is 100% false, completely baseless and without merrit.

Prices are determined by inferential statistics run on the market, and (as I stated above) the American Economics Association has reviewed and agrees with the methodology.

I mistyped before, but what I was trying to say was that the system is kept in check because the GDP is ballparked by calculating the GNI (Gross National Income) and then measuring the statistical discrepancies.

I am asking you to prove the claim that you made, specifically that the government invents prices for products and thus inflates the GDP. I am not asking you to prove a negative, I am asking you to provide evidence of the positive assertion you made, that the GDP is artificially inflated by the government.

Personally, I think this is probably a waste of time. For all the rhetoric of "freeing your mind" you seem to have reached foregone conclusions without actually studying the facts. In your rush to prove why the US government would want to keep citizens from leaving (something that also has not been proven, I might add) you have mischaracterized, flung insults, and ignored genuine opportunities for debate infavor of labels like "hateful nationlism".

If this country is going to be improved, its going to be done by thoughtful research, open and honest debate, and constructive argument. The Bush administration has put us in a very bad place. The Free Trade Agreements that seemed to be a "done deal" just three years ago are now completely out of reach. The opportunity to genuinely shrink government and return money to the American taxpayers has been foregone in favor of massive increases in military spending. The issue of Social Security reform has still not been solved, and we have reversed the progress we made with China, once a repeated recipient of "Most Favored Nation Trading Status" to the throwing up of unnecessary tariffs which only hurt the American poor, because they are the ones most affected by a rise in the price of textiles.

These are serious issues, and they're never going to be solved if time and effort is wasted on debate about whether or not the US government is actively engaging in a program to prevent emmigration, for which there is no evidence and no base.

But then again, what do I know? I'm just a sycophant.

Edited by Economist (10/05/06 11:39 PM)

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