Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Political Discussion
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck, Certified Organic All-In-One Grow Bags by Magic Bag   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 |  [ show all ]
Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious
    #4773628 -

http://www.progress.org/2005/torture4.htm

Quote:
The Senate defied the White House and voted overwhelmingly to set new limits on interrogating detainees in Iraq and elsewhere, underscoring Congress's growing concerns about reports of abuse of suspected terrorists and others in military custody.

Forty-six Republicans joined 43 Democrats and one independent in voting to define and limit interrogation techniques that U.S. troops may use against terrorism suspects, the latest sign that alarm over treatment of prisoners in the Middle East and at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, is widespread in both parties.

Bush had fought to prevent the restrictions, with Vice President Cheney visiting key Republicans in July and a spokesman yesterday repeating Bush's threat to veto the larger bill that the language is now attached to -- a huge $440 billion military spending measure.

But on the night of October 6, 89 senators sided with Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.), a former prisoner of war in Vietnam who led the fight for the interrogation restrictions.

As new allegations of torture -- and illegal coverups -- continue to surface, the coalition of McCain supporters is broadening. McCain read a letter on the Senate floor from former secretary of state Colin L. Powell, who endorsed the amendment and said it would help address "the terrible public diplomacy crisis created by Abu Ghraib."

Since the torture scandal at Abu Ghraib, U.S. military recruitment has fallen. With the Bush administration in favor of torture, recruits know that they face new dangers and humiliations if they are ever captured. After Attorney General Alberto "Mr. Torture" Gonzales endorsed torture of prisoners of war, all U.S. soldiers realize that the same treatment could face them if other countries choose to follow the U.S. example.



--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Silversoul]
    #4773656 -

So the terrorists won't use torture against our troops now?! Fuck yea!

I've always wondered why they should get information that could save thousands of people if they have to hurt a terrorist.

Now if only they'd pass a bill to allow interrogators to set them up in a nice cozy loft with tea and crumpets when they want to question one.


--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Silversoul]
    #4773659 -

You would think a good Christian man would be for the prevention of torture. Let him veto the entire bill if he doesn't like it.

^Not all of them are terrorists or insurgents.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: daimyo]
    #4773670 -

Torture is ineffective.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Redstorm]
    #4773752 -

Actually, torture is effective. Whether or not it's moral is a different question.




Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
    #4773773 -

Phred said:
Actually, torture is effective.


Yup. It got thousands of people to confess to being witches a few centuries ago.


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
    #4773788 -

Phred said:
Actually, torture is effective. Whether or not it's moral is a different question.



How do you figure? It is quite common knowledge that when being exposed to extreme physical or mental stress, a person will tell anything to cease the stress. This includes information that are completely untrue (see Paradigm's example).

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Redstorm]
    #4773798 -

I didn't say it was foolproof. I said it was effective. It is.





Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Redstorm]
    #4773806 -

Detainees have been known to give bad information before. Most of the terror alerts have been based on bad information.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Silversoul]
    #4773812 -

As for the article posted... what a load of bullshit it managed to compress into a relatively few paragraphs.

That's not to say I disapprove of the bill. But there's a TON of crap in the commentary Paradigm posted.






Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
    #4773823 -

Quote:
Full Text : COPYRIGHT 2004 Financial Times Information Ltd.

(From CBS News Channel)

Byline: Thalia Assuras, Joie Chen

THALIA ASSURAS, CBS ANCHOR: At least three California high school teachers have been put on paid leave after complaints they let students watch the videotaped beheading of American Nicholas Berg in Iraq. One allegedly gave out the video`s Web address.

Defense Secretary Rumsfeld reportedly approved the secret program that encouraged the physical coercion and sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners. The charge comes in the next issue of the "New Yorker" magazine. Meanwhile, many experts question whether the tactics are reliable.

Joie Chen has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOIE CHEN, CBS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The torture happened long ago and far away to Orlando Tizon and Sister Dianna Ortiz. He spent four years imprisoned in Ferdinand Marcos`s Philippines. She is an American nun, brutalized by Guatemalan security forces in 1989.

Long ago, and yet: (on camera): When you see the pictures, what do you see?

ORLANDO TIZON, TORTURE VICTIM: I see what was done to me.

CHEN (voice-over): A mock execution, blindfolds, humiliation, sexual abuse -- all are terrifyingly familiar.

SISTER DIANNA ORTIZ, FORMER TORTURE VICTIM: I was lowered into an open pit with human bodies; bodies of people that were also stark naked. And, at one point during my torture, there were dogs that were brought in.

CHEN: What`s worse, torture survivors say, in their agony, they were often willing to tell interrogators anything.

TIZON: I made up stories. I made up -- we would be tortured; at any time of the day, we would be taken out for torture and interrogation, anytime of the day or night. And we had to make up stories, just to be able to get out of the situation.

CHEN: Those trained in military interrogation agree that information from tortured suspects is often useless.

MIKE RITZ, TEAM DELTA: Torture will make a person talk, but how do we know he is telling the truth?

CHEN: Just yesterday, the Pentagon announced it would change the rules for interrogating Iraqi detainees. No more sleep deprivation, being left hooded for days, forced into awkward positions for long periods.

Trying again to quell the continuing outrage over the Abu Ghraib pictures, President Bush today said, abusers would be punished; there will be no cover up.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My administration and out military are determined that such abuses never happen again.

CHEN (on camera): But the administration has maintained that detainees in Guantanamo Bay and in Afghanistan are enemy combatants, not covered by the Geneva Conventions, leaving open the question, what rules will apply to them?

Joie Chen, CBS News, the White House.

(END VIDEOTAPE)


Clicky

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
    #4773827 -

What false information is there in the article?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Phred]
    #4773849 -

Do you mind pointing out the "TON of crap"?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Silversoul]
    #4773941 -

There's no doubt that it isn't foolproof but to dismiss it as entirely useless would be doing so in error.

Many of the psychological techniques (as opposed to purely relying on extreme physical discomfort) used for interrogation can be very effective at breaking the will of someone unwilling to cooperate. Interrogators in Vietnam were able to extract much useful information from the Vietcong that thwarted many attempts at ambushing patrols and the like. Most was done without resorting to extreme violence.

According to Michael Yon's weblog, it seems that we've been fairly useful in extracting usable intelligence from the enemy. Most he said were more than willing to turn on their brethren to save their own skin. To test them we need to but check up on what we've gathered in most instances.

One of the main arguments I've heard from the opponents say that it simply encourages retaliation from the enemy. That they would likely try to carry out the same acts on us. I say we can only hope. When they seem intent on cutting off the heads of everyone they think doesn't walk just the right way, it would be a welcome change if they only deprived their captives of sleep or subjected them to recordings of prayer on really big speakers.

We probably aren't going to get put in any ticking time-bomb situations where we can take a pair of pliers to a guys nuts and expect to save the day but to take it off the table entirely is irresponsible.

Edited by HagbardCeline (10/08/05 06:18 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #4774068 -

Paradigm, you framed this article in a misleading and unfair way.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #4774105 -

Divided_Sky said:
Paradigm, you framed this article in a misleading and unfair way.


I quoted it word-for-word. How is that misleading and unfair?


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #4774139 -

I don't think anyone doubted that interrogation is effective.

it's torture that's at question.

since it's so fullproof, I'd be interested in seeing something to
substantiate the foregone conclusion that torture is so goshdarn
effective.


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: Silversoul]
    #4774145 -

Paradigm said:
Divided_Sky said:
Paradigm, you framed this article in a misleading and unfair way.


I quoted it word-for-word. How is that misleading and unfair?


Oh, I didn't see your source. i guess that isn't your doing. I should have been tipped off when the author said the White House was "in favor of torture". Implying that Bush loves torture and gets 'furious' that the Senate passes a resolution against it is pretty cheap. The White House opposed the Bill because they thought it was unecessary and perhaps a swipe at them so Congress could save face over Abu Ghraib. I have seen no evidence that Bush is "furious" because he really wants to torture people but the brave and noble Senate thwarted his nefarious plans.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: afoaf]
    #4774185 -

First, we'll have to define torture. It seems that is what the bill intends to do.

The link Redstorm posted is proposing that "a mock execution, blindfolds, humiliation, (and) sexual abuse" are all forms of torture. Sexual abuse, I can see, but are the others what you would consider torture or interrogative techniques?

Edit - To clarify, I and Phred said it wasn't foolproof.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

Edited by HagbardCeline (10/08/05 07:45 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Senate Votes 90-9 Against Torture, Bush Furious [Re: newuser1492]
    #4774238 -

Quote:
Do you mind pointing out the "TON of crap"?


Sure. I'm surprised you'd ask, though, since almost all of it has been covered extensively in other threads in this forum. But briefly --

Quote:
The Senate defied the White House and voted overwhelmingly to set new limits on interrogating detainees in Iraq and elsewhere...


Nothing new at all. If you'd read the bill you'd know it specifically states that the Army's manual of conduct (I forget the exact name of the manual at the moment and too lazy to look it up) is to be the standard for interrogations. Well gee, Homer, it's already the standard for interrogations. That's why Lyndie England and her ilk got their asses court martialed after all -- for violating the regs in the manual.

Quote:
Forty-six Republicans joined 43 Democrats and one independent in voting to define and limit interrogation techniques that U.S. troops may use against terrorism suspects, the latest sign that alarm over treatment of prisoners in the Middle East and at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, is widespread in both parties.


"Alarm"? There's no alarm. I doubt the Republicans voted out of any kind of "alarm" but rather because they figured what's the harm in making an empty gesture telling the military to do what they've been doing all along? It changes exactly nothing and comes off as a big public relations coup to the human rights groups. It's a win-win for the Republicans.

Quote:
As new allegations of torture -- and illegal coverups -- continue to surface...


What new allegations are these? First I've heard of them. Allegations from whom? Captured Jihadis? The same Jihadis who are trained to routinely charge abuse at every opportunity?

Quote:
Since the torture scandal at Abu Ghraib...


We've been through all that a hundred times before. What was done to the criminals at Abu Ghraib was not torture. Humiliation, sure. Against the regs, sure. Torture? Not hardly.

Quote:
With the Bush administration in favor of torture...


Bullshit.

Quote:
After Attorney General Alberto "Mr. Torture" Gonzales endorsed torture of prisoners of war...


More bullshit. We've been through this a hundred times before. Gonzales never endorsed torturing prisoners of war.





Phred


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 |  [ show all ]

Shop: MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck, Certified Organic All-In-One Grow Bags by Magic Bag   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale

General Interest > Political Discussion
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* A Green Vote or Independant Vote is A Vote for George Bush fft2 1,376 19 06/30/04 03:12 AM
by sir tripsalot
* Did you vote for/against Bush or not at all
( 1 2 all )		 thescientist 2,315 34 09/19/03 10:33 PM
by Phluck
* 100 Reasons for voting against President Bush Jellric 618 3 05/07/04 03:38 AM
by luvdemshrooms
* Bush loses on presentation, wins on issues Phred 1,931 18 10/04/04 05:30 AM
by JonnyOnTheSpot
* BEYOND BUSH - Part I RonoS 1,602 12 07/02/03 03:07 PM
by Rono
* Senate Defies Bush, Turns Iraq Aid Into Loans Zahid 754 1 10/17/03 01:19 AM
by PsiloKitten
* John Kerry hates african americans. tak 1,013 4 09/21/04 10:56 PM
by DigitalDuality
* From Bush to Kerry in under an hour
( 1 2 all )		 AaronEvil 3,311 38 10/13/04 03:03 AM
by Le_Canard

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil, ballsalsa
3,554 topic views. 4 members, 0 guests and 12 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.029 seconds spending 0.005 seconds on 16 queries.