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OfflineAaronEvil
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From Bush to Kerry in under an hour
    #3246310 - 10/12/04 06:04 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I was listening to an interview with Chris Mathews, host of hardball, and it swayed me to look more towards Kerry. Pretty much he made it clear that the two party system (although I disagree with it) is a very simple process when it comes to voting. Either you like the way the country is being run or you dont. If you do, keep the current president; if you dont, vote for the other guy. It still sucks, but it made me think about a lot of Bush's plans. I dont like his tax plans, I dont like his foriegn policy, I dont like his scientific stands, I dont like how he brings religion in too politics (as much as he does), and I dont like his grammar. I may not agree with Kerry's because of where I see it going, but the fact is I cant predict how Kerry's plans will turn out. I can make the assumption that he is going to be as terrible as Bush, but I can not really prove anything unless he is elected. So, I figure... I might as well give Kerry a chance. My vote is still not certain, but I seem to be leaning more towards Kerry.


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There is not a lot of difference between a fox hole and a grave; but knowing that you dug your ditch and climbed in anyway.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: AaronEvil]
    #3246349 - 10/12/04 07:02 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Good post... good points... good luck.


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Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineAncalagon
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: AaronEvil]
    #3246360 - 10/12/04 07:10 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

AaronEvil said:
I was listening to an interview with Chris Mathews, host of hardball, and it swayed me to look more towards Kerry. Pretty much he made it clear that the two party system (although I disagree with it) is a very simple process when it comes to voting. Either you like the way the country is being run or you dont. If you do, keep the current president; if you dont, vote for the other guy. It still sucks, but it made me think about a lot of Bush's plans. I dont like his tax plans, I dont like his foriegn policy, I dont like his scientific stands, I dont like how he brings religion in too politics (as much as he does), and I dont like his grammar. I may not agree with Kerry's because of where I see it going, but the fact is I cant predict how Kerry's plans will turn out. I can make the assumption that he is going to be as terrible as Bush, but I can not really prove anything unless he is elected. So, I figure... I might as well give Kerry a chance. My vote is still not certain, but I seem to be leaning more towards Kerry.



Would you vote for Hitler because 'an election is a referendum on the Incumbent?' Bush and Kerry are both horrible, I can't see how anyone thinks Kerry is THAT much better than Bush. He supports the war in Iraq, empire building, patriot act, big government and the ever-growing welfare-warfare state, etc., etc. Please, vote your conscience and stop listening to Chris Matthews. People voting for the lesser of two evils is the reason this country is and has been spiraling downward. If you vote for the lesser of two evils you have nothing to hope for but evil. Please consider voting for the third party of your choice -- don't support the statist quo by voting Democrat or Republican.


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'


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OfflineAaronEvil
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3246363 - 10/12/04 07:15 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I would vote a third party but the ones on the ballet in California are a joke. I might as well be voting for Hitler if I voted for them. I think the party system is flawed in every way possible, but there is nothing we can do about it. For me, I am voting for the person who can make the MOST corrections, not the person who is the lesser of two evils. I just dont think the third party candidates that I am able to vote for are any better than the two major candidates. Believe me, I looked at the third parties first. What it comes down to though, aside from the fact the third parties suck, is that no matter who you vote for your vote doesnt count because of the electoral college. We could all vote for Osama Binladen as president but if the members of the electoral college dont like it, they can CHOOSE our president FOR US.


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There is not a lot of difference between a fox hole and a grave; but knowing that you dug your ditch and climbed in anyway.


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OfflineTao
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: AaronEvil]
    #3246390 - 10/12/04 07:40 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I dont like how he brings religion in too politics (as much as he does), and I dont like his grammar.




*into politics :wink:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: AaronEvil]
    #3246407 - 10/12/04 07:56 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

AaronEvil said:
I was listening to an interview with Chris Mathews, host of hardball, and it swayed me to look more towards Kerry. Pretty much he made it clear that the two party system (although I disagree with it) is a very simple process when it comes to voting. Either you like the way the country is being run or you dont. If you do, keep the current president; if you dont, vote for the other guy.



Unless the other guy voted for most of the current president's policies which you disagree with most. Or if the other guy will not bring about any fundamental changes in the system. Or if you're thinking long-term, and realize that voting for one of the two major parties will only bring about more of the same.

Quote:

It still sucks, but it made me think about a lot of Bush's plans. I dont like his tax plans, I dont like his foriegn policy, I dont like his scientific stands, I dont like how he brings religion in too politics (as much as he does), and I dont like his grammar.



I agree, but I also don't like Kerry's tax plans, I don't like his foreign policy, I don't like his socialist health care plan, I don't like him making promises he can't keep(like not raising taxes on the middle class), I don't like his constant bragging about his achievements in a war which he spoke out against upon returning, I don't like the fact that he voted for the Patriot Act and the Iraq War, I don't like the fact that he intends to follow all the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission(which means more government intrusion into your privacy), I don't like his ignorance of the Constitution and his support for big government programs, and I don't like his campaigning on the fact that he's not Bush, when in fact there are several other candidates running who are also not Bush.

Quote:

I may not agree with Kerry's because of where I see it going, but the fact is I cant predict how Kerry's plans will turn out. I can make the assumption that he is going to be as terrible as Bush, but I can not really prove anything unless he is elected. So, I figure... I might as well give Kerry a chance. My vote is still not certain, but I seem to be leaning more towards Kerry.



As you said, you can't predict how Kerry's plans will turn out, so for all you know, he could actually be worse than Bush. However, he has been in the U.S. Senate for a long time, so you might get some idea of what he'd be like as president by looking at his voting record there. And if you look at it in recent years, you'll find that just like I pointed out, he voted for the Patriot Act(without even reading the damn thing) as well as for ceding authority over to President Bush to use force in Iraq, even though as a Senator, he could have just exercised his Constitutionally-defined role of declaring war. Even if he was not whole-heartedly in favor of either of these things, the fact that he went along with them anyway shows some severe deficiency in character, IMHO. Also, his claim during the debates that he would implement all the recommendations of the 9/11 Commission(some of which you can read about here, here, and here for starters) indicates that he has no real objection to the government infringements on individual rights which we saw with the Patriot Act. Also, he wants to increase the troop involvement in Iraq. While he claims most of these troops will be from other nations, I'm a bit skeptical, considering that the nations already in the coalition are becoming sick of getting beheaded, and are starting to pull out. Now, you don't really think he'll just pull out of the country if that happens, do you? He says he's committed to "winning the peace" over there, and I wouldn't put it past him to re-institute the draft in order to do so(not that that isn't a possibility with 4 more years of Bush either).

I would recommend that you think long-term, not just about the immediate future. Voting for a third-party candidate may not get them elected, but it will express a much more profound disapproval of the status quo. If a third-party candidate can attract a large enough segment of the population, it will mean more publicity for their party, which will allow them to get their message out there and reach more people, which in turn can help influence the direction of politics in America. It may not happen this election, or even the next one, but you can spend the time in between convincing more people to vote for them next time, and eventually, you may get there. Now, I'm not sure about your personal politics, but I'd suggest checking out the following political parties, all of which I respect much more than either the Democrats or Republicans:

Libertarian Party
Green Party
Reform Party
Peace and Freedom Party

If you're still worried about Bush winning and believe for whatever reason that Kerry will be better, try and find out whether or not you live in a swing state. If, like me, you live in a state(California in my case) which is secure for one of the candidates, you can vote for a third party and still be comfortable knowing that your vote did not influence the outcome of the election. Of course, it's extremely unlikely it would have anyway, but you can be even more sure of this if you're not in a swing state. Now, if you do live in a swing state, and you're still worried about Bush winning, I'll understand if you vote for Kerry, but please, first consider the alternatives.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: AaronEvil]
    #3246424 - 10/12/04 08:08 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

AaronEvil said:
I would vote a third party but the ones on the ballet in California are a joke. I might as well be voting for Hitler if I voted for them.



Come on, now. How much research have you actually done on them?

Quote:

I think the party system is flawed in every way possible, but there is nothing we can do about it. For me, I am voting for the person who can make the MOST corrections, not the person who is the lesser of two evils.



You think Kerry is going to "correct" the abuses of power by the Bush administration? Can you point out to me when was the last time a president repealed new federal powers given to them by a previous administration?

Quote:

I just dont think the third party candidates that I am able to vote for are any better than the two major candidates.



Does the fact that none of them are corrupted by corporations trying to buy influence in government mean anything to you?

Quote:

Believe me, I looked at the third parties first.



If you say so. I find it hard to believe you gave them all a good, honest look if you're comparing them all to Hitler.

Quote:

What it comes down to though, aside from the fact the third parties suck, is that no matter who you vote for your vote doesnt count because of the electoral college. We could all vote for Osama Binladen as president but if the members of the electoral college dont like it, they can CHOOSE our president FOR US.



I could be mistaken about this, but I believe electors are required to vote with the majority in their district. In any case, the fact that your vote is so unlikely to have any effect on the outcome should be even more incentive to vote your conscience and go with the candidate who best represents your views. If that candidate is John Kerry, then by all means vote for him, but don't do it just because you don't like Bush. The only real wasted vote is a vote for a candidate you don't truly believe in.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAaronEvil
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: silversoul7]
    #3246484 - 10/12/04 08:53 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I did my research on the third party candidates believe me. I just dont like a lot of any parties views. I dont just compare them to Hitler but agree that the 2 major parties are not much better, if better at all. Im not sure if Kerry is going to correct anything but I do know that Bush most likely isnt. There is a possibility that Kerry could be worse. I guess what it comes down to is after the third debate if I see no hope in either candidate then I will vote for a third party. It's tough for me to make a vote anyway because my views are so centrist. I am extemely liberal and extremely conservative at the same time. Generally there is no party I can agree with on 50% of the issues.


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There is not a lot of difference between a fox hole and a grave; but knowing that you dug your ditch and climbed in anyway.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: AaronEvil]
    #3246505 - 10/12/04 09:13 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

You sound like a Liberaterian to me...

But you have a good point.

I think Bush's first four years earned him a place among the WORST presidents ever. Only time will tell...

It is hard to imagine doing much worse with Kerry than we did with Bush.

Bush is the only president in US history that WENT TO WAR WITH THE WRONG COUNTRY.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.



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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: Rose]
    #3246573 - 10/12/04 10:06 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
You sound like a Liberaterian to me...

But you have a good point.

I think Bush's first four years earned him a place among the WORST presidents ever. Only time will tell...

It is hard to imagine doing much worse with Kerry than we did with Bush.

Bush is the only president in US history that WENT TO WAR WITH THE WRONG COUNTRY.




Would that mean that John Forbes Kerry's Congress was the only Congress in US History to authorize force against the "Wrong Country", and Kerry voted to authorize that force?

And aren't you the same quack that was claiming Vietnam was an unjust war just yesterday or the day before? Now you are claiming that this is the first time we went to war with the wrong country in history? Show me some consistency.

He won't be the worst president in history if he is right. 10 years from now we will see a peaceful, stable and democratic Afganistan, Iraq, and most importantly Iran. And when that happens, I wonder what lefties like you will be saying about George Bush.

And SilverSoul, did John Kerry really say that he voted for the Patriot Act without reading it? I have read that on this board, but I have never heard it mentioned in the media.


--------------------
Tastes just like chicken


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Invisible1stimer
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3246581 - 10/12/04 10:12 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Would that mean that John Forbes Kerry's Congress was the only Congress in US History to authorize force against the "Wrong Country", and Kerry voted to authorize that force?



Congress is controlled by Pub-Lickens. Get your reality straight and quit living in Bush's Fantasy Land. The vote was not to use force but to give the president the authority to use it. 2 completely different concepts that simple minded Pub-lickens cant understand with their 2 brain cells.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

There is such emotion in the distortion.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: 1stimer]
    #3246587 - 10/12/04 10:16 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Here is a simple concept for you my friend. Bush couldn't have used that force unless John Kerry and his Congress authorized it. John Kerry voted to authorize that force. Check the Constitution brother.


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Tastes just like chicken


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InvisibleAntiMeme
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: AaronEvil]
    #3246597 - 10/12/04 10:21 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

In under an hour? That's quite a flip flop.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: AaronEvil]
    #3246725 - 10/12/04 12:06 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Well, if you're not satisfied with any of the candidates, you could choose not to take part in the system by not voting for anyone. Or put yourself or some fictional character as a write-in candidate.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3246817 - 10/12/04 12:42 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

He won't be the worst president in history if he is right. 10 years from now we will see a peaceful, stable and democratic Afganistan, Iraq, and most importantly Iran.




yeah, because "regime change" in Iran was just so successful last time around :lol:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: Vvellum]
    #3246877 - 10/12/04 01:01 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
Quote:

He won't be the worst president in history if he is right. 10 years from now we will see a peaceful, stable and democratic Afganistan, Iraq, and most importantly Iran.




yeah, because "regime change" in Iran was just so successful last time around :lol:



I think it might work this time if it's done by the people of Iran and not our own government.  The problem with the Shah was that he was a U.S. puppet dictator who catered to American interests.  This pissed off enough Iranians that they revolted and chose the Ayotollah Khumeni(sp) as their new leader.  From what I've heard lately about Iran, the people are starting to rise up and demand democracy and freedom.  Whether or not the U.S. should provide assistance is a matter I won't get into, but if a revolution resonates in the hearts of the people, then there is more hope for success.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: AaronEvil]
    #3246992 - 10/12/04 01:30 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I could be classified as a paleo/geo libertarian. If there was nobody other than Kerry, Bush and Nader on the ticket, I would vote for Nader before the other two. Replace Nader with Cobb, I would vote for Cobb before the other two.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: silversoul7]
    #3247110 - 10/12/04 02:04 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I'd gladly support an internal revolution of Iran if it were indeed democratic - I'd even support private aid to such uprisings. I just dont believe the US government has the best intentions when it comes to such things - look at the history of US involvement in "exporting democracy."

I only support regime change if a large majority of the citizens of the said nation support it. Otherwise, it is simply invasion of a foreign force.


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OfflineAaronEvil
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: AntiMeme]
    #3247168 - 10/12/04 02:19 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

AntiMeme said:
In under an hour? That's quite a flip flop.




Call it a flip flop if you must but I never said I was voting for either. I have always said I lean more towards Bush, but the debates change that. I think the undecided and non-partican voters are the voters who are looking at the issues not the party. I hate how people like Kerry because he is a Democrat and like Bush because he is a Republican. That is the reason we are in this mess to begin with. So yes, I rather be a flip flopper than vote for a complete moron on the basis of him being affiliated with my party.


--------------------


There is not a lot of difference between a fox hole and a grave; but knowing that you dug your ditch and climbed in anyway.


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OfflineJesusChrist
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: silversoul7]
    #3247438 - 10/12/04 03:32 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

bi0 said:
Quote:

He won't be the worst president in history if he is right. 10 years from now we will see a peaceful, stable and democratic Afganistan, Iraq, and most importantly Iran.




yeah, because "regime change" in Iran was just so successful last time around :lol:



I think it might work this time if it's done by the people of Iran and not our own government.  The problem with the Shah was that he was a U.S. puppet dictator who catered to American interests.  This pissed off enough Iranians that they revolted and chose the Ayotollah Khumeni(sp) as their new leader.  From what I've heard lately about Iran, the people are starting to rise up and demand democracy and freedom.  Whether or not the U.S. should provide assistance is a matter I won't get into, but if a revolution resonates in the hearts of the people, then there is more hope for success.




http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/3235223/an/0/page/2#3235223

I posted two interesting articles on Iran.  (Interesting to me at least).  One of them talks about the strange popularity of George Bush and the United States.  And it was written by a fairly liberal NY Times reporter.  I think that those people want democracy and rapprochement with America.  We will surround Iran with free democratic governments to the East and West and they will fall.  That has always been part of the "dreaded neocon agenda" and Annapurnas Project for a New American Century.  And I don't think it is a bad idea at all.  Think about how the world will change for the better if we are right.

Also, the Shah of Iran biggest mistake was taking moderization too fast and giving rights to women.  That is what pissed off the conservative religious base the most.  I am not saying the Shah was the greatest guy, but he did make some concrete steps to take his country forward.  As bad as a rap as he gets, they would have been better off with him than the theocratic dictators they have now.  Iran has staged 120 public hangings since March alone.  Recently people have been demonstating in the streets.  They want America.  They love George Bush and his message of Freedom.  Who in the hell would have thunk that crazy shit?  WOO HOO!

BIO, I think that we need to win the hearts and minds of the people as well.  You talked about "private aid" going to the revolution.  I was wondering if that was a distinction from "public aid" or government aid.  As of right now, we are beaming in satelite propaganda from both lateral borders, encouraging Iranian freedom.  These broadcasts have been sighted as a catalyst for the recent uprisings in Iran. 

Iran already has a democraticly elected government, and they have some popular politicians.  The problem is the mullahs or whatever they are called have veto power over all legislation.  They have some Supreme council of religious zealots that overseas their legislative body of politicians.  Sometimes the politicians get thrown in jail for passing bad laws.  I think it is imperative that Iran keeps it's elected politicians and all of their political infrastucture when revolution comes.  They already have a system in place, all you have to do is take out the mullahs and the supreme council at the top.  The Persian people are intelligent and wonderful people.  They can do the rest.  I could see revolution in that country being fairly bloodless if done right.  Famous last words I know.


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Tastes just like chicken


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