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InvisibleVvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: JesusChrist]
    #3247660 - 10/12/04 02:56 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BIO, I think that we need to win the hearts and minds of the people as well. You talked about "private aid" going to the revolution. I was wondering if that was a distinction from "public aid" or government aid.




Correct. If individuals want to band together and send material support (or any type of support, for that matter) over to the Iranians - I absoluetely have no problem with this. I just do not support the US government as a harbinger of regime change for many reasons - particularly when it involves brute military invasion, CIA doctored elections, political assassination, puppet regimes, and death squads and/or when there is no popular support for such a change. As for "soft" activity like media streams and broadcasts, I dont have a problem with that so as long as it is relatively honest.

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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: Vvellum]
    #3248266 - 10/12/04 05:31 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

First, I think using votes as a referendum on how you think the country is doing is not a good idea. For one, any administration cannot take full fault for everything that goes wrong in a country. Secondly, you migh end up electing somebody worse.

Before you decide to vote for Kerry listen to some of the things he says campaignig. I came away with impression that he is just another opportunistic politician with no backbone or principle. It seems like in reality he just plans do everything Bush is already doing except worse, except raising taxes and socializing health care.

As for being centrist, I believe Bush is actually more centrist than Kerry. Kerry has a long history of being a very orthodox liberal, a bullshiter and a whiner.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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OfflineRoseM
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Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 22,518
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3248377 - 10/12/04 05:55 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Which president in American history has lost more jobs? Built more debt? Gone to war with the wrong country?

Bush is bad at his job.

Kerry is smarter. Therefore, Kerry is a smarter choice.


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Fiddlesticks.


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Offlineunbeliever
Yo Daddy!
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Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 5,158
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: Rose]
    #3248399 - 10/12/04 05:59 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Which president in American yhistory has lost more jobs? Built more debt? Gone to war with the wrong country?

Bush is bad at his job.

Kerry is smarter. Therefore, Kerry is a smarter choice.




Yep that's basically how I look at it. Bush had his shot and like most things in his life, he failed. Time to hand him a pink slip and pick the next electable candidate. Kerry isn't that bad really, he's got some good ideas he's claiming to bring to the table. That said, we really need IRV in this country.


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Happiness is a warm gun...

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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: unbeliever]
    #3248466 - 10/12/04 06:14 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Kerry isn't that bad really, he's got some good ideas he's claiming to bring to the table.



Like what?


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?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3248536 - 10/12/04 06:31 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Uhhhh... like not fighting the WRONG WAR in the WRONG PLACE at the WRONG TIME... for one.


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Fiddlesticks.


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: Rose]
    #3248545 - 10/12/04 06:33 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Which president in American yhistory has lost more jobs? presidents don't create or lose jobs (except their own). Bush inherited a recession and a huge vulnerability to terrorist attack, which attack caused an almost immediate loss of a huge number of jobs
Built more debt? As a percentage of gross domestic product, Reagan
Gone to war with the wrong country? So you say, I disagree. The clock ran out for Saddam and the Taliban and I for one think we were right to terminate their activities. Which war would you like to have fought? Iran? Good idea but I think we would truly have been alone on that one then, although some other nations may be coming around with the continuing pusuit of enriched uranium. They have one of the world's great oil reserves, what the fuck do they need alternate energy sources for? And Kerry wants to give them more uranium if they'll promise to be good? Or maybe N. Korea. Oh that'll go over real well with the Chinese. And THEY are the big dog in that neighborhood. What the hell does Kerry think they'll have to say when we go head to head with that whack job to set policy in their backyard. Saudi Arabia? The government is basicly non-agressive towards us. They're also, or have been, unfortunatly non-agressive toward some of the more insane elements of their population. Is that justification for regime change there? I don't see it myself.

Bush is bad at his job.I think he's doing ok

Kerry is smarter. I think you underestimate Bush's intelligence because of his speech patterns. I think you overestimate Kerry's because of HIS speech patterns. Not something I take into consideration. I find the things Kerry says far more disturbing, that is when I can figure out which one of them he actually means. I realize that requires some speculation on my part about his intent, but that's all anyone has to go on with this guy. Also, if he was so fucking smart he wouldn't be running the campaign from hell.

Therefore, Kerry is a smarter choice. Kerry is an evil swine who will do and say anything to get elected. His attention grabbing treachery and self-aggrandizement thirty years ago disgust me. I've known guys like him all my life and I have always detested them




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InvisibleAntiMeme
yankee doodledandy
Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 208
Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: AaronEvil]
    #3248580 - 10/12/04 06:40 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Isn't it kinda implied that when you vote for a democrat, you also vote for the democratic party platform? So if you support the democratic platform, you vote for the democrat? Seems quite the proper thing to do for me.

Flip flopping on the other hand.. but I guess if you're leaning towards the biggest flip flopper of them all, flipping and flopping is what you do. Avoiding flip flopping is hard work.


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Offlineunbeliever
Yo Daddy!
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Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 5,158
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3248642 - 10/12/04 06:51 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Ancalagon said:
Quote:

Kerry isn't that bad really, he's got some good ideas he's claiming to bring to the table.



Like what?




I like the catastrophic national healthcare idea. I think it could be the right compromise between our current "system" and full scale national healthcare like they have in Canada. The individual retains control over their doctor, hospital, etc but the cost for the every day stuff is much more manageable and available.

Also, I don't think Kerry will likely jump blindly into a war like Bush has done.

Also Kerry is going to roll-back the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy. My father happens to be in that 200k+ per year group and that royally pisses him off, hah, but it doesn't bother me and wouldn't bother me even if I was also in that bracket. But then I'm a borderline socialist so I don't scare easily when taxes are raised.

I think too that Kerry will re-strengthen our global alliances and from that, as well as the nation voting out Bush, hopefully the world opinion on America and Americans will go up a little bit for a change.

Kerry is also not supporting enshrining bigotry, hatred, intolerance and inequality in the Constitution like Bush is. I think you can guess what I'm talking about.

Those are a few reasons, and any one of them is more than enough compared to what Bush can offer in the next four years. *shudder*


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Happiness is a warm gun...

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OfflineAncalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 1,364
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: Rose]
    #3248755 - 10/12/04 07:16 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Uhhhh... like not fighting the WRONG WAR in the WRONG PLACE at the WRONG TIME... for one.



JOHN. KERRY. VOTED. FOR. THE. WAR. IN. IRAQ. Don't give me this 'Oh no, you misunderstand! He just voted to give the President the authority to use force against Saddam Hussein. He didn't actually want him to do it!' John Kerry violated the Constitution wholesale by giving the President a blank check to decide on matters of war and peace. The founding fathers placed the power to declare war in the hands of the legislature for EXTREMELY good reasons. The fact that John Kerry doesn't give a shit about the supreme law of the land is more than enough for me to not vote for him. The fact that he voted as he did soley so he can do what he is doing now, shift the responsibility from Congress where it was supposed to be to the President where it wasn't supposed to be, leads me to absolutely deplore him. Even forgetting all that(a feat none too hard for you Kerry lovers), and assuming he actually realizes the war was a 'grand diversion' the 'wrong war at the wrong place at the wrong time', etc. he supports COMPOUNDING this mistake by keeping our troops in Iraq. One last piece of utter idiocy with Kerry's Iraq policy, his ENTIRE strategy is based on our great friends in France and Germany magically deciding to send troops into a war the French and German people despise -- it doesn't take a phD in political science to discern that Chirac and Schroeder are not going to completely defy the will of their people because they may or may not be enamored with the sitting US president -- it doesn't make any political sense for them to do so and, believe it or not, that's all that matters to these people. So he's obviously making promises it will be near impossible for him to keep with regard to building some kind of grand coalition reminiscent of the WWII Allies. Please, if you have any love for this country, don't vote George Bush and don't vote John Kerry. To vote for either one of them is to send the message to Washington that you approve of this road to Empire that we are currently on. Do not send that message. Vote third party or don't vote, but please do not vote for a member of the duopoly.


--------------------
?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.?
-Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'

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OfflineRoseM
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Registered: 09/24/03
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3248929 - 10/12/04 07:56 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
I think you underestimate Bush's intelligence because of his speech patterns.




Nope, I base my decision on Bush's actions. There's a lot more than speech patterns that leads me to believe Bush is not a thinker.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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OfflineRoseM
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: Ancalagon]
    #3248974 - 10/12/04 08:04 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Was Kerry the only Senator to vote that way? How many people are in Senate?

I'm pretty sure there are 101 Senators. How many Senators voted to give the President authority to go to war? Do you even know?

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/11/iraq.us/
"WASHINGTON (CNN) -- In a major victory for the White House, the Senate early Friday voted 77-23 to authorize President Bush to attack Iraq if Saddam Hussein refuses to give up weapons of mass destruction as required by U.N. resolutions."

They voted to give Bush authority... remember this is back when Bush was saying he would wait for the UN's decision before going to war. Remember this is when EVERYONE thought Sadam could have WMD's.

Bush went to war alone without solid evidence.

He went to war in a VASTLY different manor than he suggested we would. He didn't wait for the UN, he didn't assemble a big coalition (Britain, Poland and a bunch of countries without armies... yeah I'm exagerating... but only a little).

Now let me ask you a question.

How on Earth can you be giving Kerry's single vote as a senator equal weight with Bush's decision to go to war alone?

This is apples and oranges.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
Loc: the shores of Tripoli
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: Rose]
    #3249025 - 10/12/04 08:14 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
Was Kerry the only Senator to vote that way? How many people are in Senate?

I'm pretty sure there are 101 Senators. How many Senators voted to give the President authority to go to war? Do you even know?

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/11/iraq.us/
"WASHINGTON (CNN) -- In a major victory for the White House, the Senate early Friday voted 77-23 to authorize President Bush to attack Iraq if Saddam Hussein refuses to give up weapons of mass destruction as required by U.N. resolutions."

They voted to give Bush authority... remember this is back when Bush was saying he would wait for the UN's decision before going to war. Remember this is when EVERYONE thought Sadam could have WMD's.

Bush went to war alone without solid evidence.

He went to war in a VASTLY different manor than he suggested we would. He didn't wait for the UN, he didn't assemble a big coalition (Britain, Poland and a bunch of countries without armies... yeah I'm exagerating... but only a little).

Now let me ask you a question.

How on Earth can you be giving Kerry's single vote as a senator equal weight with Bush's decision to go to war alone?

This is apples and oranges.




Because he gave Bush the power to do whatever the fuck he wanted. He should not be running for president, he along with the other 76 senators and the members of the house who voted yes should be tried for treason. You would think senators, especially those who were there would remember just what a blank check of power can lead to.

Also don't gimmie that BS that just because 76 others did it, it makes it all right. This arguement would be used against every other person who voted yes on this if they were running for president.

So he was a bad senator, and all of sudden you expect him to be a good president?


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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OfflineRoseM
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Registered: 09/24/03
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: d33p]
    #3249065 - 10/12/04 08:21 PM (19 years, 5 months ago)

The question is not weather I think Kerry will be a good president... it is weather I think he'll do better than Bush... since those are the ONLY two possibilities with a prayer in hell's chance of winning.

I think Kerry will do better than GWB.

I think history will show GWB as one of America's worst Presidents.

I think I would do a better job than Dubbya. I think YOU would! I think 97% of the past 42 US presidents would have done better.

Bush is at the bottom of the heap.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings

Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 15 years, 9 months
Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: Rose]
    #3250462 - 10/13/04 01:03 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:

I think history will show GWB as one of America's worst Presidents.

I think I would do a better job than Dubbya. I think YOU would! I think 97% of the past 42 US presidents would have done better.

Bush is at the bottom of the heap.




I think you are guilty the common mistake of overblowing the present situation as if it's the biggest thing to ever happen. I personally don't think Bush is all that bad, but if I did I could always compare him to Andrew Jackson (who started the spoils system and killed off the Indians), Andrew Johnson, Ulysses S. Grant, James K. Polk, Garfield, McKinnley, Taft, Lindon B. Johnson (who almost got us nuked a few times) and Jimmy Carter. I guess the last two are debatable.


--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."

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OfflineRoseM
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Registered: 09/24/03
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3250568 - 10/13/04 01:30 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Actually, I had most of those guys in mind when I said what I did.

Is Bush the worst president ever? Nope. But he is among them.

His dad, Regan, Nixon, Ford... these guys were all MUCH better presidents than Bush Jr.

I can't believe this race is as close as it seems to be.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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OfflineAaronEvil
The GuitarVillain
Male

Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 1,706
Loc: California
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: Rose]
    #3250790 - 10/13/04 02:40 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

Dont forget how bad Hoover was.


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There is not a lot of difference between a fox hole and a grave; but knowing that you dug your ditch and climbed in anyway.

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: AaronEvil]
    #3250825 - 10/13/04 02:59 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

It has been a long time since we've had a president this bad.


--------------------
Fiddlesticks.


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InvisibleLe_Canard
The Duk Abides

Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1 Flag
Re: From Bush to Kerry in under an hour [Re: Rose]
    #3250832 - 10/13/04 03:03 AM (19 years, 5 months ago)

I agree. I love how he says he's going to fix the budget while he's been racking up the highest federal deficit in history. Inflation/recession here we come! :frown:

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