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Turn
Hey Its Free!
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Redstorm]
#6134475 - 10/04/06 10:17 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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I am giving a speech tommorrow about how bad this bill is, trying to get the word out. As for why to keep people in the USA, I don't know mayby to try and keep the image up that everything is going well in the naiton. What about the internet you say? Well they already started monitering and cracking down on it....But I don't know, sounds pretty far fetched. Mayby not to keep everyone from leaving, but making it harder to leave for those the Government wants to catch
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Trepiodos
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Redstorm]
#6134476 - 10/04/06 10:17 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Redstorm said: You still haven't told us how the administration would benefit by keeping people in.
I perceive such things as not being beneficial, but this does not mean that others do not value it. What benefit is there in arresting people for victimless crimes? Obviously there is benefit to those who construct prisons and those who pursue power. Some people just plain want to control others, I do not and I do not place value or benefit in the idea. Value (and by extension, the concept of 'benefit') is subjective. If you could tell me why other countries have pursued such policies, you and I will both have a better understanding than I presently do.
-------------------- And as things fell apart, Nobody paid much attention... - David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'
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Economist
in training
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Trepiodos]
#6134517 - 10/04/06 10:25 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Trepiodos said: Why not, because you say so?
Is that your claim as to why they instituted such policies? You are going to have to back up that claim as I am not convinced.
Oh, don't worry, you don't have to take my word for it:
From: http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=936&full=1 I'll quote the most pertinent bit: "[T]he fact that so many Jewish emigres were, in effect, forsaking the Soviet Union in favor of a new life in America was an embarrassing moral and propaganda defeat for Moscow."
This is from Professor Magstadt, righting for the Journal of Policy Analysis in 1986.
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Trepiodos said: You are wrong. I suggest you check your facts about how economic statistics are compiled, what is and is not included in such things as national debt figures, CPI, and GDP and how these figures are massaged with omissions, guesses and economic sleight of hand. If you are honest WITH YOURSELF, you should come to the conclusion that you are being lied to.
Oh, I know I'm going to LOVE this.
It's your turn to prove something. Prove to me that the standard of living in the US is largely fabricated, and please back up your claims about the GDP and the CPI.
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Trepiodos
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Redstorm]
#6134520 - 10/04/06 10:26 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Economist seems to be under the impression that people will not pursue a course of action unless there are tangible rewards - something that can be quantified by numbers or actions have a rational reason. However, even a cursory examination of human history and modern societies will reveal that humans (though capable of rational thought) are not rational animals. Many times, they instead rationalize actions which are based on emotional impulses or naked desire.
-------------------- And as things fell apart, Nobody paid much attention... - David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'
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wolfsblood
SeekingKnowledge
Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 44
Loc: PNW
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Redstorm]
#6134549 - 10/04/06 10:34 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Redstorm said: You still haven't told us how the administration would benefit by keeping people in.
There are so many reasons why it would benefit from keeping us in.
In basic terms,
One would be for cannon-fodder
Another would be for a workforce, they need their economy.
Another would be that they don't want us going to other countries because we dislike this one. That breeds hatred for the US. Funny that they would think that but for some reason the US government doesn't believe that everyone hates us.
I recently traveled to Europe and everyone I met, they asked me where I was from and I had to use the following statement, "I am from the US but I don't agree with Bush, and I do not agree with what our government is doing." This was so I wouldn't be spit on, beat up who knows. When it came down to blending with the locals they were very apprehensive, they don't have any faith in us, and the government has done a fine job and making them believe that we are all right behind them.
I guess that answers that other dude's statement.. That our government hasn't lied about our living conditions, for one yes they have (aided by the media and Hollywood), and two, they also lied and told everyone that we all as citizens believe that our government is right in what its doing.
There was one place I stayed in Germany in a small town, and the person that owned the place had to have several locks on the doors because quote, "They know I have Americans staying here."
-------------------- "On the Mountain of Madness, I came to my senses, I'd been Hypnotised by people's sadness, that slowly condenses, In their mission to Dramatise their lives. " - Waterclime
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Turn
Hey Its Free!
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: wolfsblood]
#6134574 - 10/04/06 10:37 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Oh another good reason to keep us in: To prevent a brain drain, all the smart ones will leave first, can't let that happend.
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wolfsblood
SeekingKnowledge
Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 44
Loc: PNW
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Economist]
#6134621 - 10/04/06 10:46 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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It's your turn to prove something. Prove to me that the standard of living in the US is largely fabricated, and please back up your claims about the GDP and the CPI.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15093566/
http://www.forbes.com/celebrities/2005/06/11/cz_05celeb_all_slide.html?partner=msnbc
http://www.mtv.com/ontv/dyn/cribs/series.jhtml#/ontv/dyn/cribs/series.jhtml
http://www.movieweb.com/movies/boxoffice/alltime.php
ok so this is basic but guess what, I go to Europe I got to South America, The only thing that the people know about us in those places is our Media, our frickin' movies, our music, our celebs, whats hot whats not.. yadda yadda we look like a bunch of RICH, Lazy bastards. When the majority of the nation is well below that, even the middle class is struggling now, but you go to Sweden their gonna think your made of money.
You have no idea the power of the media.
-------------------- "On the Mountain of Madness, I came to my senses, I'd been Hypnotised by people's sadness, that slowly condenses, In their mission to Dramatise their lives. " - Waterclime
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wolfsblood
SeekingKnowledge
Registered: 09/12/06
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Loc: PNW
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Turn]
#6134634 - 10/04/06 10:47 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Was that joke an attempt to discredit everything I said? I think it was... Silly you...
-------------------- "On the Mountain of Madness, I came to my senses, I'd been Hypnotised by people's sadness, that slowly condenses, In their mission to Dramatise their lives. " - Waterclime
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RosettaStoned
Stranger
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Xygyg]
#6134640 - 10/04/06 10:48 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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what's with the concentration camps being built (and the ones already here)? Who exactly are they intended for?
Martial law
-------------------- "Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson "Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Turn]
#6134659 - 10/04/06 10:51 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Turn said: Oh another good reason to keep us in: To prevent a brain drain, all the smart ones will leave first, can't let that happend.
Why would the smart ones leave? The most money is to be made here.
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: wolfsblood]
#6134702 - 10/04/06 10:58 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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wolfsblood said: One would be for cannon-fodder
What!?!
Can you provide ANY evidence at all that the US government needs to plan for the defence of an invasion so large it would necessitate forced military service?
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wolfsblood said: Another would be for a workforce, they need their economy.
They lose that economy when the work force becomes imprisoned. Look up the work of Robert Fogel, won the Nobel Prize for Economics in 1993. He did extensive work on the economic viability of slave labor, considered to be ground braking and authoritative.
His conclusion was that slave labor *was* economically viable, however it wasn't nearly as profitable as free labor.
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wolfsblood said: Another would be that they don't want us going to other countries because we dislike this one. That breeds hatred for the US. Funny that they would think that but for some reason the US government doesn't believe that everyone hates us.
This doesn't make sense at all, because if all the dissenters leave, then it becomes easier to control the remainder, as they are most likely the ones who agree with you. This was explored in the policy paper I linked earlier in the thread. Essentially, the Soviets were happy to let the Jews emmigrate, because it meant less dissent over all, despite the fact that they didn't want anyone else to move out.
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wolfsblood said: I guess that answers that other dude's statement.. That our government hasn't lied about our living conditions, for one yes they have (aided by the media and Hollywood), and two, they also lied and told everyone that we all as citizens believe that our government is right in what its doing.
Oh, so the media is building the detention centers to keep people in America?
Oh, no, wait, it's the government building detention centers. And what has the government (NOT the media) said that is a lie about our living standards?
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Economist
in training
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Trepiodos]
#6134711 - 10/04/06 11:00 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Trepiodos said: Economist seems to be under the impression that people will not pursue a course of action unless there are tangible rewards - something that can be quantified by numbers or actions have a rational reason. However, even a cursory examination of human history and modern societies will reveal that humans (though capable of rational thought) are not rational animals. Many times, they instead rationalize actions which are based on emotional impulses or naked desire.
I would suggest that you have not performed a "cursory" examination of human history if you think that people behave irrationally.
People can be wrong. They can honestly believe that a course of action would benefit them, when infact it will not.
But nowhere in history have a group of people set out on a policy course specifically because they believed in advance that it was bad for them.
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Trepiodos
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Economist]
#6134764 - 10/04/06 11:16 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Economist said: I'll quote the most pertinent bit: "[T]he fact that so many Jewish emigres were, in effect, forsaking the Soviet Union in favor of a new life in America was an embarrassing moral and propaganda defeat for Moscow."
This is from Professor Magstadt, righting for the Journal of Policy Analysis in 1986.
So, you base your opinion on another's opinion. I do not disagree that this may be one factor among several. However, here's another tidbit from the same article which indicates that the situation is not a simplistic as you paint it to be, Quote:
Ludmilla Alexeyeva, a former Soviet dissident who has written an authoritative account of the human-rights struggle in the USSR, notes that the Jewish emigration movement "is made up of people whose goal is not to improve life in the USSR but to leave." Her research led to a crucial insight: "The majority of those who apply to emigrate were less concerned with civic problems than with their own lives and those of their families"
So, one could take from this that the Soviets were responding the same way to their detractors as the neo-cons do today, with raw nationalistic hate for those who did not see things the same way. What is one way to punish those you disagree with? By denying that which they desire.
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It's your turn to prove something. Prove to me that the standard of living in the US is largely fabricated, and please back up your claims about the GDP and the CPI.
I did not claim that the standard of living in the US is 'largely fabricated' that is your straw man and not my contention. I do claim that statistics are massaged to make things appear better than they are. I covered the issue of national debt in a previous post that I noticed you (conveniently) did not respond to. Clicky, click.
Why are fuel and food not currently included in the core CPI? Do you know anyone who exists without food and fuel? Why does the CPI exclude income and social security taxes? Do these not effect what is available to spend on other things? Are these not part of the price of living in the U.S.? Do the prices of stocks, bonds, real estate, and life insurance not influence overall spending and purchasing power? The prices of these are, after all, part of the overall prices paid by consumers in the economy.
As far as GDP, just look at 'hedonics.' The government bumps up the dollar denominated value of goods to reflect the government's opinion of what they are 'really' worth. This increases the GDP (to the propaganda benefit of the government). However, back in the real world, people and businesses pay less than the government's figures lead you to believe.
-------------------- And as things fell apart, Nobody paid much attention... - David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'
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wolfsblood
SeekingKnowledge
Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 44
Loc: PNW
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Economist]
#6134766 - 10/04/06 11:16 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Economist said:
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wolfsblood said: One would be for cannon-fodder
What!?!
Can you provide ANY evidence at all that the US government needs to plan for the defence of an invasion so large it would necessitate forced military service?
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wolfsblood said: Another would be for a workforce, they need their economy.
They lose that economy when the work force becomes imprisoned. Look up the work of Robert Fogel, won the Nobel Prize for Economics in 1993. He did extensive work on the economic viability of slave labor, considered to be ground braking and authoritative.
His conclusion was that slave labor *was* economically viable, however it wasn't nearly as profitable as free labor.
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wolfsblood said: Another would be that they don't want us going to other countries because we dislike this one. That breeds hatred for the US. Funny that they would think that but for some reason the US government doesn't believe that everyone hates us.
This doesn't make sense at all, because if all the dissenters leave, then it becomes easier to control the remainder, as they are most likely the ones who agree with you. This was explored in the policy paper I linked earlier in the thread. Essentially, the Soviets were happy to let the Jews emmigrate, because it meant less dissent over all, despite the fact that they didn't want anyone else to move out.
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wolfsblood said: I guess that answers that other dude's statement.. That our government hasn't lied about our living conditions, for one yes they have (aided by the media and Hollywood), and two, they also lied and told everyone that we all as citizens believe that our government is right in what its doing.
Oh, so the media is building the detention centers to keep people in America?
Oh, no, wait, it's the government building detention centers. And what has the government (NOT the media) said that is a lie about our living standards?
Are you really this slow or are you just playing the devils advocate? Even the stupidest person in the US knows that the government has "some sort" of control over the media, why the hell would they want to start a cap on the internet? BECAUSE THEY WANT TO CONTROL IT!
Yesh...
And its what the government ISN'T saying about our living standards, our government isn't trying to deal with poverty. Maybe some ex-presidents are trying to help people in foreign countries with their poverty, but they wont admit it is a problem here. Rather they just keep cutting Wal-Mart a break and telling them, "heck your giving the un-employable, employment!" Well golly, ain't that swell. That someone that should have support from this government (unlike, the dumb asses I know on welfare, who just know how to play the system) has to work a shitty job that doesn't even pay minimum wage and wont let them work enough hours to qualify for health insurance, so they end up dying poor and alone. What does the government do about that? They give Wal-Mart a pat on the back, and a tax break.
You are rewarded for already being wealthy in this country because it holds up the image of the "American dream" and those how aren't really cutting it, end up sorely forgotten in all affairs.
And the cannon fodder comment ain't about people invading here, but about them needing to send us there when they use up all the troops "rebuilding" the countries that they destroyed along their path to Holy righteousness.
-------------------- "On the Mountain of Madness, I came to my senses, I'd been Hypnotised by people's sadness, that slowly condenses, In their mission to Dramatise their lives. " - Waterclime
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Trepiodos
Disgustipated
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Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Economist]
#6134829 - 10/04/06 11:33 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Economist said: I would suggest that you have not performed a "cursory" examination of human history if you think that people behave irrationally.
I guess you've never heard of such things as 'war' or 'bar room brawls' or 'economic bubbles' or 'love' or 'mid-life crisis.' That is to your detriment. I said that humans rationalize their actions. Quite often, humans engage in behavior on emotional grounds and then rationalize afterwards. This is not the same as making a blanket statement that "people behave irrationally." In fact people behave in a variety of ways, we are animals, subject to emotion, but with the power of abstract thought.
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They can honestly believe that a course of action would benefit them, when infact it will not.
What do you mean by 'benefit'? People act in a manner that pleases or they think will please them. 'Benefit' depends upon what an individual values, value is subjective.
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But nowhere in history have a group of people set out on a policy course specifically because they believed in advance that it was bad for them.
I did not imply or argue otherwise. I suggest that you be more careful in examining my arguments. However, there are cases in history where people have set on a possible fruitless course not because they believed it was bad for them, but because they subjectively valued certain ideals above mere survival.
-------------------- And as things fell apart, Nobody paid much attention... - David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'
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Economist
in training
Registered: 10/11/05
Posts: 1,285
Last seen: 16 years, 6 months
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Trepiodos]
#6134849 - 10/04/06 11:39 PM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Trepiodos said: So, one could take from this that the Soviets were responding the same way to their detractors as the neo-cons do today, with raw nationalistic hate for those who did not see things the same way. What is one way to punish those you disagree with? By denying that which they desire.
Now I'm beginning to understand. You have the uncanny ability to read the minds of the neo-cons and understand their "true intentions" as a result. Clearly they don't actually believe they're acting in anyone's best interest, and you know that's not what they believe because you can read their minds.
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Trepiodos said: I did not claim that the standard of living in the US is 'largely fabricated' that is your straw man and not my contention. I do claim that statistics are massaged to make things appear better than they are. I covered the issue of national debt in a previous post that I noticed you (conveniently) did not respond to.
Because the national debt was your strawman. Mainstream economic arguments do not look at the national debt as calculated by Congress, but instead as a % of GDP, which is a far more telling figure. I knew in advance that you would make the claim about congress, despite the fact that it doesn't have a bearing on anything in real terms.
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Trepiodos said: Why are fuel and food not currently included in the core CPI? Do you know anyone who exists without food and fuel? Why does the CPI exclude income and social security taxes? Do these not effect what is available to spend on other things? Are these not part of the price of living in the U.S.? Do the prices of stocks, bonds, real estate, and life insurance not influence overall spending and purchasing power? The prices of these are, after all, part of the overall prices paid by consumers in the economy.
Are you just trying to be difficult, or do you really not understand this? Fuel and food both have seasonally-based price fluctuations, therefore it's useless to make economic projections based upon a seasonal adjustment which will phase out in a few months anyway.
The core CPI is thus offered as a supplement to the CPI (which does include food and fuel) in order to give a better idea of what the constant rate of inflation is, sans seasonal adjustments. Both statistics are meant to be taken together, not separately, hence why they are both reported in the same press releases.
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Trepiodos said: As far as GDP, just look at 'hedonics.' The government bumps up the dollar denominated value of goods to reflect the government's opinion of what they are 'really' worth. This increases the GDP (to the propaganda benefit of the government). However, back in the real world, people and businesses pay less than the government's figures lead you to believe.
Where are you even getting this from? Do you even know how GDP is calculated? It doesn't use a market basket like CPI, but instead it uses wage and earnings estimates. This is all readily available on the Bureau of Economic Analysis's website.
Furthermore, the BEA regularly submits papers to the American Economics Association (an independent scholarly group) for peer-review of methodologies. The last paper was submitted in 2003 and their methodologies were found to be well thought out and executed. Can you show me any evidence this is not the case?
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Trepiodos
Disgustipated
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Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Economist]
#6134924 - 10/05/06 12:03 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Economist said: Now I'm beginning to understand.
Not in the least.
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You have the uncanny ability to read the minds of the neo-cons and understand their "true intentions" as a result.
I did not say that nor did I imply that. I have experienced the hate first hand of knee-jerk nationalists merely because I had a difference of opinion. Learn to read.
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Clearly they don't actually believe they're acting in anyone's best interest, and you know that's not what they believe because you can read their minds.
Clearly you are having difficulty addressing what I actually state.
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Because the national debt was your strawman.
I was pointing out how you are lied to, but you refuse to question the official line.
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Mainstream economic arguments do not look at the national debt as calculated by Congress...
Did you even read the link? The government's debt figures DO NOT FOLLOW GENERAL ACCOUNTING PRACTICES. Educate yourself.
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despite the fact that it doesn't have a bearing on anything in real terms.
Huh? Real terms? Earning a living, feeding a family, debt piled upon debt. The lowest savings rate since the 1930's. America spending more on debt service to foreigners in relation to foreign investment than anytime within the last 90 years... You really need to come down from your faux ivory tower.
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Fuel and food both have seasonally-based price fluctuations, therefore it's useless to make economic projections based upon a seasonal adjustment which will phase out in a few months anyway.
So you believe that REAL WORLD PEOPLE, living REAL LIVES, trying to make ends meet, should buy your inane rationalization? Sorry, back on earth, real people REQUIRE food and fuel to survive. These ARE REAL COSTS born by REAL PEOPLE EVERY SINGLE DAY.
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The core CPI is thus offered as a supplement to the CPI
The point, is that the government touts the core CPI as proof of it's proper handling of the economy. It is a politically contrived number.
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Where are you even getting this from?
The government's own website. You should investigate.
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Do you even know how GDP is calculated? It doesn't use a market basket like CPI, but instead it uses wage and earnings estimates.
Wrong. Check your facts. GDP is comprised of more that wage and earnings.
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The last paper was submitted in 2003 and their methodologies were found to be well thought out and executed. Can you show me any evidence this is not the case?
You want me to prove a negative? I have already brought up points and you choose to ignore them. You don't even have a grasp of what it means to have to support a family in the REAL WORLD (not the mythical CPI world of out of touch academics). You're comments on GDP show that your economic education is faltering. Stop being a sycophant and start being a free thinker, question and investigate.
-------------------- And as things fell apart, Nobody paid much attention... - David Byrne, '(Nothing But) Flowers' from the Talking Heads' album, 'Naked'
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Redstorm]
#6134957 - 10/05/06 12:15 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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Redstorm said: You still haven't told us how the administration would benefit by keeping people in.
because the first thing that becomes obvious once you set foot in a foreign country is that king george is lying ..there are other countries where you get free education.. free health care.. where you can do all the drugs you want to.. and where you cant be imprisoned for the rest of your life without a trial and never be tortured....
-------------------- "anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Annapurna1]
#6134962 - 10/05/06 12:16 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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You don't even have to leave the country to figure that out.
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Annapurna1
liberal pussy
Registered: 05/21/02
Posts: 5,646
Loc: innsmouth..MA
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Re: Torture Bill States Non-Allegiance To Bush Is Terrorism [Re: Redstorm]
#6134973 - 10/05/06 12:20 AM (17 years, 5 months ago) |
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i wouldnt be too sure about that..theres still alot of ppl..maybe still a majority..that still take all of KGs bullshit as gospel...
-------------------- "anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...
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