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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Philosophical Question?
    #3247733 - 10/12/04 05:25 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If we are a part of the one, isn't helping yourself helping the whole? However, helping yourself before others is considered selfish right? Why is selfishness considered bad then? Whats the difference if you help yourself or another if we are ONE energy body in individuized movement, micros of the macro.

(This sounds like a gomp question, I know) I've always wondered about this.

And taking it in reverse, what if people are doing really hurtful things to themselves and others. How does it effect us by the same principle? It's gotta be hurting us in some way, even if it is happening on the other side of the globe.

I'm open to anyones understanding of this, providing you believe in the oneness stuff.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Philosophical Question? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3247777 - 10/12/04 05:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

when you practice metta meditation the real buddhist way.
(metta meditation is loving kindness meditation)
first you develop the context of loving kindness towards the self.
then to a person whom you have a great rapport with (not opposite sex) who may be your teacher then someone which whom your rapport is OK
then with someone who is neutral with you, then you work on a being which whom your rapport is fraught with complexity and difficulty.
then you proceed with the the rest of the universe, either in stages, (like sangha (the brotherhood), this world, all worlds, or humans, animals, everything)

it is considered that the self must be managed first since if it is compromised it will bring the rest down.

the matter of the middle way helps to curb self indulgence, and the guard against greed as an unwanted root motivator helps with the rest of all tendencies towards selfishness.

same with the meditation on compassion which is simmilar but includes a discriminatory component oriented to considerations morally beneficial for the object person. (that also is self regulating). This is closer to answering the question. I think


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Philosophical Question? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3247784 - 10/12/04 05:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

It's about collectively making the greatest improvement on the whole.

However, one starts to realize that what appears to be "helping" is only subjective, and that on atleast a semi-objective level, no actions can be labelled 'good' or bad', 'generous' or 'selfish'. However, selfishness can be blinding, in that one feels that only the direct benefits of themselves are worthwhile and thus miss the wonders happening all around them and inside of them. The stronger we yearn for personal gain, the further inward we suffer. So, the thing to do, in my opinion, is to completely realize the illusions of imperfection. Don't get what you want to be happy, but be happy in the single moment of now for all you have - your experience of existence.

Sure people starving to death appears as a horrible sight to most. This is the ego too. We don't want to "suffer" that way and in feeling 'pity' for them, we are only enforcing our own "selfish" desires. (the desire of self existence is the most selfish thing afterall, not that selfish = bad :wink:) Help yourself by realizing that you don't need any help, neither do those who appear "less fortunate" than you. We are all going to die and continue this dance of energy as a collective whole, and therefore individuality is an illusion, one which brings about the illusion of suffering.

So this brings about the idea of karma...

Karma has always never made sense to me. People say that doing good deeds without expecting anything in return acquires good karma (or destroys karma buildup- depending on one's beliefs). And so they try purposedly to be humble, to be good servants, to in turn hope to achieve good karma and the benefits attached to this. And yet, they never realize the hypocricy of this whole cycle, that trying to be good for the sake of karma would go against the actual reasoning behind karma.

But, if we are all the same being (which I will go as far as to say we are :smile:), then this brings a whole new light on the issue of karma. By doing good things to others, we are in turn aiding in our collective existence, the single being full of all experiences. This too is a fallacy though...

The single being is perfect. Incarnations of lives of suffering are not objectively bad. It is all and none, and no duality based qualities can be applied to it as there is no external observer. Fighting disease may save human lives, but it kills the lives of the virii and bacteria. Everything is perfect and in balance, anything else is an illusion, purposedly manifested through fragmented experience of the one being.

or something like that...
i dunno.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: Philosophical Question? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3247867 - 10/12/04 05:57 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

good question ive thought about that too. My conclusion was that helping ourself DOES help the whole, the entirety of life, but the key is really and truly knowing what it is to help ourselves. We need to know what is really good for us. This is called enlightend self interest.

So although we may think we are helping ourselves by hoarding money or robbing a bank, we really arent, not in the truest, most funademental sense, and that is why these actions actually hurt us and others. However, things that really do help us, such as staying in good health, staying free of addictions, being forgiving and kind in daily life, meditating and achieving self control, etc, ARE good for us, and society, and people around us, and the world itself.

another example, say a big oil company baron thinks he is helping himself by destroying an ecosystem to get rich on oil. In truth he is hurting himself, karmically, spiritually, maybe emotionally, and he is also hurting the world and people around him.

I guess the differance is between unenlightend self interest (which is selfish, self serving) and enlightend self interest (which is nescessarily beneficial to everyone)

:grin:


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Everything I post is fiction.


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Philosophical Question? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3248111 - 10/12/04 07:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

selfish, is that the same as egoistic?
helping yourself before others could be considered selfish, but is not evrything you do selfish? kinda taste the word..
"beeing selfish is the only way you can be true to others"
- unknown :P


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Philosophical Question? [Re: Moonshoe]
    #3248113 - 10/12/04 07:03 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Loved all of the perspectives on this! Thanks for writing them. This is good stuff, keep adding too it if ya can!


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Philosophical Question? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3248657 - 10/12/04 08:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Note: This is a tangential response to your question.

I have noticed throughout my life that NO help is appreciated unless DIRECTLY asked for.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Philosophical Question? [Re: Swami]
    #3248733 - 10/12/04 09:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I thought it was quite relative and touching on the question.

I've noticed it too. I think I've even said it here before.

I remembered reading in one of Don Miguel Ruiz's books, called The Mastery of Love, him saying that if you go in to help someone when they didn't ask you for help, you can often expect to walk away with a black eye.

Like when Danoboy started his rant in the unspoken words post. Stupid me thought he was asking for help to deal with it and I jump in to help, when all the while, he just wanted to pitch a bitch and doesn't want things to change for the better. I should've asked if he was just venting and or wanting some tools for getting a grip.

He socked me one too for it. LOL It's all good. Live and learn. Love ya dano! :kiss:

In that book, Don Ruiz also emphasises that everyone should carry their own damn baggage and not offer to carry others, accept others or to dump theirs off on others. He says, if we all lived like that, our relationships would be a lot more healthy.

All of this can be applied in answer of my question.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


Edited by gettinjiggywithit (10/12/04 09:10 PM)


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Philosophical Question? [Re: Swami]
    #3248805 - 10/12/04 09:28 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

BTW, that isnt true, Swami. Sometimes the appreciation goes unsaid.

In response to jiggy: I believe selfishness and selflessness are just terms to describe our motivation. If your motivation can be summed up as selfish desire (such as sex, drugs, power, control, basically escapisms and addictions) then its very hard to expand your awareness and spread peace to all you meet. But, if you reach a state of selflessness then your selfish actions are primarily in the interest of others, which is a dynamic and ever changing subject. If life ever becomes too dull and boring, its most likely because your interaction in the world is selfish and stagnant.

When you become ultimately selfless in thought and action your expirence branches out to the entire population.


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As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Philosophical Question? [Re: psyka]
    #3248843 - 10/12/04 09:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

That was also good stuff psycha!

Some times, people would like some help but don't know how to ask for it. And sometimes, it is appreciated when you jump in. I want to get in the habit of asking first. I think often, peoples pride gets in the way and often, people should learn to be better at helping themselves, those are the only ones who really are open to receiving help anyway. They know how to take your dime and turn it into a buck.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisiblepsyka
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Re: Philosophical Question? [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #3248892 - 10/12/04 09:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Indeed, perhaps our school systems should be teaching us how to teach ourselves.

Also, you can help people broaden their views with subtlty. Subtlty is key. Similiar to the meanings of paintings, they are neutral on display and they dont force you to understand their meaning, but if appealing enough to the individual the person will go deeper and try to understand the subtlty and meaning of it. Learning how to "paint" your speech and knowing how to make it interesting for the listener is the key for helping others expand their awareness. Politicians do it all the time, but they use deceit and manipulation which is counter productive in the long run. Its a hard skill to master and even harder to master neutrally.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Philosophical Question? [Re: Swami]
    #3248914 - 10/12/04 09:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Note: This is a tangential response to your question.

I have noticed throughout my life that NO help is appreciated unless DIRECTLY asked for.



that would be consistent with compassion
you would not expect appreciation.


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