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OfflinePhluck
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How conspiracies are destroying the american left.
    #3217514 - 10/05/04 11:06 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I just watched 9/11: Road to Tyranny. It really just goes over the same points that the infowars website does; piling on circumstantial evidence that doesn't really prove anything in particular, twisting stories, saying things like "sources witnessed bin laden planning 9/11 with americans" (what sources?). Alex Jones is a skilled propagandist, but he really doesn't know how to construct a rational case. Not unlike a Fox news reporter. Instead of having any large pieces of evidence that demonstrate his theories, he's got a huge pile of inconsequential evidence, that he's spun to play into the story he's created.

Bush had much better evidence that Saddam had WMDs, than Alex Jones has demonstrating Bush planned 9/11.

The republicans love the conspiracy theorists. They're doing them a phenomenal favour. They've painting a picture of the american left as a bunch of wackos who will believe anything, as long as it demonizes the current administration.

The Bush administration is corrupt, greedy, and has done plenty to alienate the US from the rest of the world. However, it's done this in a realistic kind of a way, not an X-Files kind of way.

I've seen posters around town advertising a film about how Bush orchestrated the 9/11 attacks, called "The Great Conspiracy", or something like that. The more people that buy into this shit without any significant evidence backing it up, the more easily the mainstream media can just brush Bush's detractors off as nutcases.

Despite the fact that Alex Jones' propaganda has convinced many otherwise; there is not a single piece of evidence that is substantial enough that it would be taken seriously in a court room. Trying to focus on these theories, instead of the very real, and very demonstratable things that Bush has done, is doing far more to aid Bush's campaign than to destroy it. While the real stories might not be as dramatic or exciting as the conspiracy theories, they are the stories that will have an impact on swing voters.

Spreading the bull is promoting Bush. You're shoving the swing voters away from you.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineTao
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Re: How conspiracies are destroying the american left. [Re: Phluck]
    #3217588 - 10/05/04 11:37 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I completely agree. :thumbup:


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: How conspiracies are destroying the american left. [Re: Phluck]
    #3217693 - 10/05/04 12:14 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Despite the fact that Alex Jones' propaganda has convinced many otherwise; there is not a single piece of evidence that is substantial enough that it would be taken seriously in a court room.




I've been saying this for years...then again how can you argue with someone who puts a link to a website as their source? I mean come on, it's on the Internet!!!! (sarcasm)


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

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"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineekomstop
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Re: How conspiracies are destroying the american l [Re: Phluck]
    #3217701 - 10/05/04 12:16 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

meh, although I would dissagree with you, I have no reason to disrespect your opinion.

I guess I just fail to see how gathering up mainstream news articles and giving connecting the dots a try equates to propaghanda..unless of course the news sources he uses were all basically full of shit in the first place

Edit: BTW, he isn't suggesting Bush himself planned 9/11. You should consider watching atleast a few of his other documentaries along side that one to get a bit more resolution on the whole picture before making a final judgement. Frankly I didn't find the road to tyranny to be all that convincing either, however it does make clear that government sponsored terrorism is nothing new and was likely the case yet again on 9/11. And again, the bush admins ARE in a lawsuit over this!!


Edited by ekomstop (10/05/04 01:26 PM)


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Offlineekomstop
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Re: How conspiracies are destroying the american l [Re: Innvertigo]
    #3217704 - 10/05/04 12:18 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Innvertigo said:I've been saying this for years...then again how can you argue with someone who puts a link to a website as their source? I mean come on, it's on the Internet!!!! (sarcasm)




He posts all the sources on his website for easy access. They all have references and in most cases link back to the original source.


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: How conspiracies are destroying the american l [Re: Phluck]
    #3217710 - 10/05/04 12:20 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Well said, Phluck.
:cheers:


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: How conspiracies are destroying the american l [Re: ekomstop]
    #3217761 - 10/05/04 12:43 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

He posts all the sources on his website for easy access. They all have references and in most cases link back to the original source.




you misunderstood what I meant. It was sarcasm. I agree with him 100%. Many people, Zihad for example, used a tripod site for his/her source to answer specific questions and was angry that noone took it seriously.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineekomstop
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Re: How conspiracies are destroying the american l [Re: Phluck]
    #3217784 - 10/05/04 12:52 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Innvertigo: ahh, yeah..I figured that was probably the case but thought I might comment on it to clarify anyway..

Phluck if you honestly disagree with the information he and his associates have gathered, why not give him a call on his radio show and have a little chat with him about it?  That would be awesome, Shroomerite on the air with Alex Jones :smile:


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: How conspiracies are destroying the american l [Re: ekomstop]
    #3217933 - 10/05/04 01:42 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

dude, I've seen a lot of A.J.'s stuff....

THE GUY IS 99% FULL OF SHIT

he always refers to sources, hard evidence, matters on the public
record, but he never produces it.

I wish he would take what little he does have and has substantiated
and tone it down into a more plausible argument.

There's plenty there to make you wonder, but he tries to push it
way too far out.

Case in point...he's got a great soundbite of Ashcroft saying:

'You WILL lose your liberty'

and he touts this as proof that Ashcroft is party of the illuminati
human enslavement movement, but what he doesn't provides is
the context of the quote:

My message to America this morning, then, is this: If you fit this
definition of a terrorist, fear the United States, for you will lose
your liberty.

http://www.cnss.org/ashcroftstmt.htm

All of these documentaries are so far flung, they don't stand the
test of even superficial review, though, that's not to say that
they don't also occasionally present an interesting gem of cited
fact that really makes you go...hmmm?

for example, CIA and NORAD were running drills on the morning
of September 11th to train for a small plane striking a government
building (CIA) and commercial airplanes being hijacked and used
as weapons (NORAD) and that FEMA was already setting up shop
in NYC for drills to be run on September 12th....hmmm...


--------------------
All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.


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Offlineekomstop
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Re: How conspiracies are destroying the american l [Re: afoaf]
    #3218001 - 10/05/04 02:02 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

What about the rest of Ashcrofts statement?

"My message to America this morning, then, is this: If you fit this definition of a terrorist, fear the United States, for you will lose your liberty... We need honest, reasoned debate; not fearmongering. To those who pit Americans against immigrants, and citizens against non-citizens; to those who scare peace-loving people with phantoms of lost liberty; my message is this: Your tactics only aid terrorists - for they erode our national unity and diminish our resolve. They give ammunition to America's enemies, and pause to America's friends. They encourage people of good will to remain silent in the face of evil."

another one of those things that might make you go hmmm...no?

I would agree with you in that the way Jones' pushes some of his stuff might sound pretty far out, but I would argue that is probably because he can see where his country is headed if it keeps up in the same direction. Personally, I don't even think some of it is really THAT far out. David Ickes case, now he might be getting into a realm that may be a little too over the line for some people, but I'd argue that Jones does have good reason to speak about things in the way that he does..have you seen police state 3? That's probably his most important film to date IMO, and would probably give anybody good reason to start taking him and his seemingly stretching of some of the issues seriously. I mean..to just pass off 99% of his material a horse shit is pretty fucking ridiculous, he is in a position to try and help motivate people for a damn well worthy cause, and personally I think he is doing a pretty fucking good job doing that.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: How conspiracies are destroying the american l [Re: ekomstop]
    #3218048 - 10/05/04 02:10 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

but phlucks point is while it motivates a small percentage
to be more aware or better, become active, it also has the
potential to motivate an even larger number of people to
discredit and dissavow anyone associated with these sorts
of theories.


--------------------
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Offlineekomstop
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Re: How conspiracies are destroying the american l [Re: afoaf]
    #3218120 - 10/05/04 02:24 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I agree, Pluck's points are well taken, him and anybody have every right to be skeptical, I wouldn't expect anybody to jump on the 'crazy' train right away, but, atleast personally, I haven't really seen anyone discredit anything. Sure someone could say they think he extends his argument beyond the realm of reason, but if they listened to his radio show, saw all of his films, and in a way got to know the man as a person and why exactly he speaks the way he does, I highly doubt they would find much room left for disagreement.

Of course that's just my opinion, I have heard people call into his show trying to defend their argument and discredit him only to end the call converted into an advocate of the message he is trying to deliver. Think about it, he has a radio show that broadcasts worldwide, 5 days a week, anybody and everybody can call in and talk to him and his guests about absolutely anything, whether they want to call him a kook or try and set his facts straight, the man is nothing short of honest, if someone can prove he is wrong about something, I am sure he would come clean with complete honesty and tell the world: you are right, I was wrong. Thank you for clairifying.

Phluck, call in, lets see what you got!


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InvisibleTheHateCamel
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Re: How conspiracies are destroying the american left. [Re: Phluck]
    #3218121 - 10/05/04 02:24 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

This should be a pretty basic point of view for any resonable person, liberal or not.

Is there really that much of a problem? Anyone willing to bite into something just because it is what they want to hear is just a regular moron, you are just refering to a specific kind of moron that isint going to go away even if you sat them all down and explained that they are being taken.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: How conspiracies are destroying the american l [Re: Phluck]
    #3218153 - 10/05/04 02:33 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

It should be noted that Alex Jones and many of the popular NWO conspiracy theorists (David Icke aside) are right-wingers.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: How conspiracies are destroying the american l [Re: ekomstop]
    #3218385 - 10/05/04 03:31 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I guess I just fail to see how gathering up mainstream news articles and giving connecting the dots a try equates to propaghanda..unless of course the news sources he uses were all basically full of shit in the first place

From what I can tell, the dots look like this:



It's pretty easy to connect them any way you see fit.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: How conspiracies are destroying the american l [Re: TheHateCamel]
    #3218397 - 10/05/04 03:34 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)



--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Offlinephi1618
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Re: How conspiracies are destroying the american l [Re: Phluck]
    #3218450 - 10/05/04 03:49 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Do conspiracies occur? Do powerful people abuse their power?
Sure, happens all the time.

Do the elite WASPs still control the US?
More than any other single group, sure.

Are we nothing more than chattel for the powerful elite, who are members of a grand, all-powerful secret society?
Would we be having this conversation if we were?


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Offlineekomstop
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Re: How conspiracies are destroying the american l [Re: Phluck]
    #3218459 - 10/05/04 03:52 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

From what I can tell, the dots look like this:



It's pretty easy to connect them any way you see fit.




yeah, and if you happen to decide to keep dwelling deeper into all of this, the seemingly abstract placed dots will begin to form a very discernable image



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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: How conspiracies are destroying the american l [Re: Phluck]
    #3218549 - 10/05/04 04:21 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

The Bush administration is corrupt, greedy, and has done plenty to alienate the US from the rest of the world. However, it's done this in a realistic kind of a way, not an X-Files kind of way.




what i find kind of x-filish is how bushco was able to sell so many ppl on such boldfaced lies..and continues to do so even as we speak...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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InvisibleTheHateCamel
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Re: How conspiracies are destroying the american l [Re: Phluck]
    #3218642 - 10/05/04 04:53 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Change it to "these peoples beliefs don't yield to new information", instead of "these people are morons", whatever.

"Because senses and beliefs are both tools for survival and have evolved to augment one another, our brain considers them to be separate but equally important purveyors of survival information."

How could you know something like that?

"Skeptics' ability to alter their own beliefs in response to data is a true gift; a unique, powerful, and precious ability. It is genuinely a "higher brain function" in that it goes against some of the most natural and fundamental biological urges. Skeptics must appreciate the power and, truly, the dangerousness that this ability bestows upon them. They have in their possession a skill that can be frightening, life-changing, and capable of inducing pain. In turning this ability on others it should be used carefully and wisely. Challenging beliefs must always be done with care and compassion."

I wonder if that article was written by a "skeptic"?

Nice rant.

Nice article.

I'm all for you promoting awareness, you do a great job.:thumbup:


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