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OfflineMAGnum
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Registered: 07/08/04
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Re: So if the 'Terrorists' hate 'us' because of our 'freedom [Re: d33p]
    #3184472 - 09/26/04 11:03 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)



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Offlined33p
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Registered: 07/12/03
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Re: So if the 'Terrorists' hate 'us' because of our 'freedom [Re: ]
    #3184530 - 09/26/04 11:22 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Fiend said:
The words "many" and "all" have very different meanings.

I also just thought it odd that since every single senator was guilty of the same thing you felt it so pertinent to mention only the one who is a presidiential candidate, as if the person he is running against or some other person would somehow not be guilty of doing the exact same thing as him.

And as for doing their job to the fullest, reading the full text of everything they vote on is simply not possible, which again, is a commentary on something being seriously wrong with how they do things.

The bill was rushed through, in part to make sure no one ever could even read half of it. What do you think the people who didn't vote for it (there weren't any, but pretend there were) would have been branded for shooting down the "Patriot" act?

And why are you so snappy and defensive anyway?




We were talking about whether they read some of it not all of it. So many is the correct word. Again wtf is with reading comprehension?

Kerry is one of the more well known senators and the only one i knew off the top of my head who didn't read the act at all. You are reading to much into those 2 words i added that concerned kerry.

Also kerry did not read the act at all so not all senators are guilty of what kerry and others are.

i agree with your 3rd and 4th paragraphs and i would have branded them as patriots.

And im snappy and defensive because PAL has really been a cespool lately.

edit: extra "not" in first point


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Edited by d33p (09/26/04 11:35 PM)

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Offlined33p
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Re: So if the 'Terrorists' hate 'us' because of our 'freedom [Re: MAGnum]
    #3184549 - 09/26/04 11:29 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

MAGnum said:





Quote:

ekomstop said:
but I do know that I read that most of members of congress said that they wern't even allowed to read it beforehand, they were just told to pass it.




Find me where it says that in the link. kthx

Come on now, you have got to be kidding me......

again i ask wtf happened to reading comprehension.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: So if the 'Terrorists' hate 'us' because of our 'freedom [Re: ekomstop]
    #3184560 - 09/26/04 11:32 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

If you had bothered reading it before you drank your Kool-Aid you (hopefully) wouldn't have said that.

The majority of the act is actually quite useful legislation. It allows for information sharing between agencies, one of the critical flaws that may have prevented 9/11, as well as laws that detailed the procedures for surveillance in all of the new electronic medias. I also believe that they included parts about seizing and tracking funding. These things were needed legislation. This does give the authorities a better hand at dealing with the terrorist threat.

I think the main problem with it is the lack of adequate limitations and oversight. If these could be properly adressed, there wouldn't be much left that is totally improper.

What freedoms exactly have been taken away by this act?

Also, patriot is a relative word. Just because you don't like what's happening (in truth though you don't really know because you didn't read it) it doesn't invalidate their patriotism. Patriotism doesn't require a particular allegiance to a certain governing policy, just one to your country.

Edit - I forgot about the not reading shit. Which is exactly what that is, BULLSHIT! They had the oppourtunity to read. Just as they have the oppourtunity and obligation to read every piece of legislation that comes up for a vote. If they just had someone telling them to pass it and not allowed to read it and they did it, they would be negligent in their duties and should be impeached.

To say they don't have time to read every little piece that comes their way is ludicrous. That is their fucking job. The one they swore to uphold.

To say they weren't allowed is nonsense.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

Edited by HagbardCeline (09/26/04 11:37 PM)

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: So if the 'Terrorists' hate 'us' because of our 'freedom [Re: d33p]
    #3184568 - 09/26/04 11:35 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

To be fair, at the time, the Patriot Act was impossible to read.

Also, the Patriot Act was changed in the middle of the night, the night before the vote.

I wonder if the Senators read the FIRST Patriot Act... I doubt they had to review the changes.

From what I hear, the Patriot Act itself is unreadable. A bunch of notes, pointing to other laws and making small changes in them. Reading the Patriot Act would require having copies of all of the laws it changed... before it would even make sense.

I haven't read it.

Who here has read the Patriot Act?

Look at it. It is unreadable.


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Offlined33p
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Re: So if the 'Terrorists' hate 'us' because of our 'freedom [Re: Rose]
    #3184575 - 09/26/04 11:38 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Cervantes said:
To be fair, at the time, the Patriot Act was impossible to read.

It was changed in the middle of the night, the night before the vote.

I wonder if the Senators read the FIRST Patriot Act... I doubt they had to review the changes.

From what I hear, the Patriot Act itself is unreadable. A bunch of notes, pointing to other laws and making small changes in them. Reading the Patriot Act would require having copies of all of the laws it changed... before it would even make sense.




Well my ephasis was the people who read none of it. That is just pitiful.

And this whole thing originates from ekom claiming people were forced to not read it and just pass it.


edit:
Quote:

Cervantes said:I haven't read it.

Who here has read the Patriot Act?

Look at it. It is unreadable.




Most legislation is unreadable which is why we have elected officals to read it for us and make an informed decision. This is not excusable.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

Edited by d33p (09/26/04 11:42 PM)

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: So if the 'Terrorists' hate 'us' because of our 'freedom [Re: Rose]
    #3184589 - 09/26/04 11:43 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

"Later that morning [of October 12], the House voted 337-79 to pass the bill. The outraged dissenters complained that no one could possibly have had the time to read the enormously complex 342-page law that amended fifteen different federal statutes and that had only been printed out hours before." Steven Brill, After; How America Confronted the September 12 Era, (Simon & Schuster, NY: 2003).

"Many lawmakers were outraged that a bipartisan bill, which had passed the Judiciary Committee by a unanimous vote, was set aside for legislation negotiated at the last minute by a very small group. Members rose to say that almost no one had read the new bill, and pleaded for more time and more deliberation.... Asked about complaints that lawmakers were being asked to vote on a bill that they had not read, the chairman of the Rules Committee, Representative David Dreier, Republican of California, replied, ?It's not unprecedented.?" Robin Toner & Neil A. Lewis, "House Passes Terrorism Bill Much Like Senate's, but With 5-Year Limit," The New York Times, October 13, 2001.


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Offlineekomstop
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Re: So if the 'Terrorists' hate 'us' because of our 'freedom [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #3184596 - 09/26/04 11:45 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

well I read like that it somewhere, it was rushed through congress pretty quick, if I find that specific link again, I'll post it.

Quote:

The majority of the act is actually quite useful legislation. It allows for information sharing between agencies, one of the critical flaws that may have prevented 9/11, as well as laws that detailed the procedures for surveillance in all of the new electronic medias. I also believe that they included parts about seizing and tracking funding. These things were needed legislation. This does give the authorities a better hand at dealing with the terrorist threat.




Do you not think it's possible that they could and likely will be using these new sets of rules against the American people?

http://www.marshallparthenon.com/news/2003/04/01/News/Patriot.Act.Creates.Controversy-404778.shtml
Section 802 of the Patriot Act defines domestic terrorism as activities that "...are a violation of criminal laws of the United States or any state."

The definition of the word terrorist has been extended way beyond the realm of reason, courtesy of the patriot act. Basically, as bush has said..if you buy drugs, you will be considered to be associated with terrorism, and will be dealt with as a terrorist. What else can I say?

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OfflineRoseM
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Re: So if the 'Terrorists' hate 'us' because of our 'freedom [Re: d33p]
    #3184619 - 09/26/04 11:50 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I'm not arguing with you... just adding information.

The bill was changed and printed the night before it was voted on.

Senators were upset because they didn't have time to read the Patriot Act.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: So if the 'Terrorists' hate 'us' because of our 'freedom [Re: ekomstop]
    #3184636 - 09/26/04 11:52 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

I indirectly said there weren't parts that need to be completely removed. They serve no purpose other than allowing for additional charges.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine

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Offlineekomstop
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Re: So if the 'Terrorists' hate 'us' because of our 'freedom [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #3184663 - 09/26/04 11:58 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

You mean parts that should be removed? From what I gather they have no intention on removing anything from it, but instead they seem to have a strong desire to strenghten it, especially with upcoming the domestic security enhancement act. Militarized police. Domestic CIA. Yay.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: So if the 'Terrorists' hate 'us' because of our 'freedom [Re: ekomstop]
    #3185239 - 09/27/04 03:51 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Do you not know the difference between "not reading" and "not being allowed"?

The link you provided does not back up your claim.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineTao
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Re: So if the 'Terrorists' hate 'us' because of our 'freedom [Re: Rose]
    #3185371 - 09/27/04 05:20 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

It really hasn't been abused too much yet,




How on EARTH could YOU possibly know whether it has been abused much yet? The actions they have taken with it have not been released yet. Only when there are future congressional hearings will we know what has been going on, just like with FISA and its abuses.

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Offlineekomstop
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Re: So if the 'Terrorists' hate 'us' because of our 'freedom [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3185749 - 09/27/04 09:44 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

What's with all the immediate hostility in this forum? Some of you guys just seem to be here for the sole purpose of jumping on any given petty little misapplication in a persons choice of words for the sake of..what? Maybe you should be getting more upset at your feds' choice of words in their carefully crafted deceptive speaches, fooling you..a number of the people you supposedly put into office don't even seem to be writing their own speaches for fucks sakes.

Quote:

Do you not know the difference between "not reading" and "not being allowed"?




When you look at the quotes that Cervantes was nice enough to provide, could you please explain to me how anybody could have possibly read that document in that short amount of time?

Quote:

How on EARTH could YOU possibly know whether it has been abused much yet?




http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/rightsandfreedoms/a/patriotabuse.htm
The government is using gag orders and secret evidence to keep the public in the dark about its use of the Patriot Act to investigate Americans, according to the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU).

In two legal challenges to controversial provisions of the Patriot Act brought by the ACLU and other groups, the government has filed secret evidence that it is refusing to disclose to the public and even to the attorneys in the case.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/21/attack/main564189.shtml
"This report shows that we have only begun to scratch the surface with respect to the Justice Department's disregard of constitutional rights and civil liberties."


This might not appear to be directly linked to the patriot act, but here is a classic example of the mindlessly trained police abusing their power..


http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_1038773.html

Woman arrested for eating chocolate in station

A woman has been handcuffed and arrested for eating a chocolate bar inside a Metro station in Washington DC.

Stephanie Willett, 45, was detained by a Metro police officer who had spotted her eating while she was on an escalator heading for the station.

Eating and drinking is banned on the Metro system and the officer had warned Willett to finish the bar before entering the station. Willett said she put the last piece in her mouth and threw the wrapper away.

The officer continued to follow her into the station and Willett was searched, handcuffed and arrested for chewing after passing through the fare gates.

She was only released several hours later after paying a $10 fine (about ?6), says the Washington Post.

Willett said she was being unfairly punished because she made fun of the police officer after being issued a second warning before the arrest.

"Why don't you go and take care of some real crime?" Willett said she told the officer while still swallowing the bar.

"It was a complete waste of taxpayers' money and the officers' time as well as mine. It was just about her trying to retaliate against me because I made a comment about how insignificant I thought the matter was."

Willett is due in court in October.



It's only a matter of time before it gets way out of control. If not already, the majority of us will be considered guilty until proven innocent. So the thousands of cops in black ski masks are supposed to be here to serve and protect? Give me a break. Slaves to help round up the sheep and weed out those who slow them down is more like it.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: So if the 'Terrorists' hate 'us' because of our 'freedom [Re: ekomstop]
    #3185823 - 09/27/04 10:18 AM (19 years, 6 months ago)

> It's only a matter of time before it gets way out of control.

I think it has been out of control since the Nixon days... if not earlier...


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: So if the 'Terrorists' hate 'us' because of our 'freedom [Re: ekomstop]
    #3187283 - 09/27/04 04:37 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Choice of words is what allows intelligent conversations to take place.

Close enough just isn't close enough.

If they didn't have enough time they could have voted NO. No-one forced them to vote yes or any other way.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineTao
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Re: So if the 'Terrorists' hate 'us' because of our 'freedom [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3187342 - 09/27/04 04:51 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

but ashcroft did say that if a terrorist attack occurred during extended deliberations, he would publicly blame them for it.

http://www.epic.org/privacy/terrorism/usapatriot/
When the legislative proposals were introduced by the Bush administration in the aftermath of September 11th, Attorney General John Ashcroft gave Congress one week in which to pass the bill -- without changes. Vermont Democrat Patrick Leahy, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, managed to convince the Justice Department to agree to some changes, and members of the House began to make significant improvements. However, the Attorney General warned that further terrorist acts were imminent, and that Congress could be to blame for such attacks if it failed to pass the bill immediately.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: So if the 'Terrorists' hate 'us' because of our 'freedom [Re: Tao]
    #3187387 - 09/27/04 05:01 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

Ashcroft is an ass. And it doesn't change the fact that those who voted for it did so on their own. They were not forced.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineTao
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Re: So if the 'Terrorists' hate 'us' because of our 'freedom [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #3187400 - 09/27/04 05:05 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

true, but hindsight is 20/20. When your attorney general tells you an attack is imminent while your in a flood of anthrax reports and just past 9/11--its hard to cast the first stone, thats all im sayin.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: So if the 'Terrorists' hate 'us' because of our 'freedom [Re: Tao]
    #3187412 - 09/27/04 05:07 PM (19 years, 6 months ago)

That would be true I guess, if those in Washington didn't have access to the same info.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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