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InvisibleXlea321
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"Terrorism" vs "Collateral damage"
    #3101643 - 09/07/04 02:14 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

If the Palestinians were using helicopter gunships and missiles against Israeli cities (as Israel uses against Palestinian cities) would civilian deaths be classed as "terrorism" or "collateral damage"?

If the Taliban had launched cruise missiles against the US would any resulting deaths have been "collateral damage"?


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: "Terrorism" vs "Collateral damage" [Re: Xlea321]
    #3101671 - 09/07/04 02:18 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

No, if the palestinians were using helecopters to kill Isreali insurgents that killed innocent palestinian civilians, and some innocent Isrealis were killed, that would be coined "collateral damage"


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OfflineZahid
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Re: "Terrorism" vs "Collateral damage" [Re: Xlea321]
    #3101682 - 09/07/04 02:21 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Muslims are not allowed to fight under any circumstance, silly. Catch 22.  :wink:


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Offlinethieverycorp
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Re: "Terrorism" vs "Collateral damage" [Re: Zahid]
    #3101694 - 09/07/04 02:23 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I think that if one targets innocents then it is terrorism, if innocents are killed in the process of targeting the enemy then it is defined as "collateral damage..." either way, innocent people are dying and I expect that loved ones take little comfort that their family or friends might have died from "collateral damage"


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: "Terrorism" vs "Collateral damage" [Re: thieverycorp]
    #3101751 - 09/07/04 02:35 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

thieverycorp said:
I think that if one targets innocents then it is terrorism, if innocents are killed in the process of targeting the enemy then it is defined as "collateral damage..." either way, innocent people are dying and I expect that loved ones take little comfort that their family or friends might have died from "collateral damage"


Agreed. Although the similar grievances of family members does not necessarily make the action which caused those grievances the same.


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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: "Terrorism" vs "Collateral damage" [Re: thieverycorp]
    #3101752 - 09/07/04 02:35 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

"More meaningful figures show that Israel is responsible for some 733 Palestinian noncombatant deaths, while Palestinians have killed 546 Israeli noncombatants. Over 54 percent of the Palestinians killed were actively involved in fighting ? and this does not include stone-throwers or ?unknowns?. And Palestinians are directly responsible for the deaths of at least 253 of their own number ? more than one out of every eight Palestinians killed.

On the Israeli side, 80 percent of those killed have been noncombatants. While Israelis account for about 27 percent of the total ?Intifada? fatalities, they represent over 43 percent of the noncombatant victims."

http://www.ict.org.il/arab_isr/arab-isr_frame.htm


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OfflineZahid
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Re: "Terrorism" vs "Collateral damage" [Re: thieverycorp]
    #3101764 - 09/07/04 02:40 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Killing is killing. Few people acknowledge that Muslims have grievances.


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: "Terrorism" vs "Collateral damage" [Re: Zahid]
    #3101795 - 09/07/04 02:46 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
Killing is killing. Few people acknowledge that Muslims have grievances.


Killing is not killing when the intent is different. There is a HUGE difference, for example:

I'm driving down the street doing the speed limit, a child runs after a ball into the street, my car strikes him dead. I killed him

I'm walking down the street, I see the child of a family of a different faith, or of different anything of my own disposition, so I take the child and hack him up into pieces.

DO YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE?


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OfflineZahid
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Re: "Terrorism" vs "Collateral damage" [Re: Skikid16]
    #3101838 - 09/07/04 03:06 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Ok, let's see how a suicide bomber might see it.

He is living under a foreign military occupation. People have came and stole the land of his grandparents, and forced them into refugee cities. those people have the financial and military support of the world's military and economic super power. Your brother, your sister, your mother as been murdered for putting up the slightest protest to palestinian homes being bulldozed for people who were born in another country to come live there instead. You have weapons. You have no technology, you have finances, you have no tanks, no leaders except a bunch of hypocrites like Arafat, you have no fighter air craft. Above ALL of that the army that is occupying, killing, and oppressing your people are using weapons financed by a foreign source. And the people who the world considers "innocents" are viewed more and more as occupiers because Palestine is not their land, and they have been trained in the military of the enemy (it is required for all Israelis to have affiliation with its IDF) You face turns to disgust when you hear an "innocent" Israeli say 'This is my homeland' - with a British accent!

See, when a suicide bomber walks into a pizza shop to HIM he isn't targetting innocent people. He is targetting Zionist occupiers - grown men who IMMIGRATED to Israel, who were trained by Israel's occupational forces, and who frequent the occupied land of Israel ON CALL at any moment for the occupation. The bomber views those who are innocent as collateral damage. Their intent is to destroy the on-call zionists who dwell everywhere in Israel.

See? It's not as black and white as "Their religion teaches them to kill all non believers".


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: "Terrorism" vs "Collateral damage" [Re: Zahid]
    #3101851 - 09/07/04 03:15 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The problem is, there are organizations such as HAMAS that RECRUIT suicide bombers.

Is it not true that most suicide bombers are not acts of solitary volition? Most require a push by older men that will not allow their families to carry out the acts they recruit others to do?

I mean, I may be wrong, but I thought that's how it worked? I mean, if most muslims are so poor and deprived, how can the come up with the materials on their own to make a bomb?


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OfflineZahid
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Re: "Terrorism" vs "Collateral damage" [Re: Skikid16]
    #3101864 - 09/07/04 03:21 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

The problem is, there are organizations such as HAMAS that RECRUIT suicide bombers.

Suffering and desperation is also a progress, and it is getting worse and worse. That desperation is slowly becoming embedded in the psyches of occupied societies.


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: "Terrorism" vs "Collateral damage" [Re: Zahid]
    #3101883 - 09/07/04 03:30 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Regarless of what is embeded in the psyche, it doesn't make it ok.

I mean, does HAMAS not recruit suicide bombers?


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OfflineZahid
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Re: "Terrorism" vs "Collateral damage" [Re: Skikid16]
    #3101897 - 09/07/04 03:40 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I never said it was Ok.

Hamas, like Al Qaeda, exploits the grievances that they themselves, and all Muslims share.


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Offlinethieverycorp
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Re: "Terrorism" vs "Collateral damage" [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3102455 - 09/07/04 11:00 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not speaking of anyone conflict in particular, I'm just comparing terrorism and collateral damage...


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: "Terrorism" vs "Collateral damage" [Re: Xlea321]
    #3102496 - 09/07/04 11:12 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

If the Palestinians were using helicopter gunships and missiles against Israeli cities (as Israel uses against Palestinian cities) would civilian deaths be classed as "terrorism" or "collateral damage"?




It would be collateral damage, assuming that the Palestinians were in uniform and attacking military rather than civilian targets.

Quote:

If the Taliban had launched cruise missiles against the US would any resulting deaths have been "collateral damage"?




Yes, assuming that they were attacking military targets and were in uniform.

Was there a point to this tirade, or are you honestly confused between the difference of terrorism and collateral damage? With most people I can tell, but with you I am unsure. (honestly)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: "Terrorism" vs "Collateral damage" [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3102601 - 09/07/04 11:49 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

http://www.ict.org.il/arab_isr/arab-isr_frame.htm

I assume you're aware the ICT is a notoriously biased Israeli based agency with members of Mossad on it's board of directors?

Over 54 percent of the Palestinians killed were actively involved in fighting ? and this does not include stone-throwers or ?unknowns?.

What does it include exactly?


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: "Terrorism" vs "Collateral damage" [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3102603 - 09/07/04 11:50 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

"More meaningful figures show that Israel is responsible for some 733 Palestinian noncombatant deaths, while Palestinians have killed 546 Israeli noncombatants. Over 54 percent of the Palestinians killed were actively involved in fighting ? and this does not include stone-throwers or ?unknowns?. And Palestinians are directly responsible for the deaths of at least 253 of their own number ? more than one out of every eight Palestinians killed.

On the Israeli side, 80 percent of those killed have been noncombatants. While Israelis account for about 27 percent of the total ?Intifada? fatalities, they represent over 43 percent of the noncombatant victims."




So which ever way you look at it the Israeli's are giving the Palestinians a right good pasting. Yeah I can see how thats the road to peace..lol


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: "Terrorism" vs "Collateral damage" [Re: Seuss]
    #3102607 - 09/07/04 11:51 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

Was there a point to this tirade

What "tirade" are you referring to? Could you point it out to me? (seriously)

I asked a simple question. Perhaps you could address what I actually say rather than what you think I'm saying?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: "Terrorism" vs "Collateral damage" [Re: GazzBut]
    #3102618 - 09/07/04 11:55 AM (12 years, 9 months ago)

So which ever way you look at it the Israeli's are giving the Palestinians a right good pasting.

And that's figures from the ICT - with MOSSAD members on it's board of directors  :grin:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: "Terrorism" vs "Collateral damage" [Re: Xlea321]
    #3102665 - 09/07/04 12:07 PM (12 years, 9 months ago)

> I asked a simple question. Perhaps you could address what I actually say rather than what you think I'm saying?

Another case of bad wording on my part... apologies. I couldn't tell if you were being serious in asking a question about the differences, or if you were trying to make a point about different labels for the same thing. I started to assume that you were making a point on the labels, but then decided not to assume. I should have gone back and changed the wording.

There is a fine line between the two, terrorism and collateral damage. To me, the difference is in motive. If an armed force attacks a civilian population for revenge, or to incite fear, then it is terrorism. If an armed force attacks a military target, and civilians are hurt in the cross fire, then it is collateral damage. It gets even more gray when you have an armed force hiding among civilians.

Regardless of the label, armed conflict sucks. It is sad that people resort to killing each other over differences in opinion or faith.


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