Home | Community | Message Board


FreeSpores.com
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Amazon Shop for: The Doors

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineTwirling
Barred Spiral
Male

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 2,468
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism? (a reaction to the new Bin Laden tape)
    #3297658 - 10/30/04 04:02 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

For a transcript of the tape: http://news.independent.co.uk/world/asia/story.jsp?story=577546


It seems to me that the reason America is in this ?War On Terror? is because of America?s past (and present) Imperialistic policies. Do you think that if America never took sides in religious or cultural foreign affairs that we wouldn?t be left with the constant threat of another 9/11, or even a 9/11 in the first place?

Perhaps another question is whether the ?War On Terror? could be won simply by being involved only as a mediator instead of as a military threat in Islamic culture (or perhaps not being involved at all)?

Osama Bin Laden in his latest tape mentions that ?Your security is in your own hands (speaking to the American people) and each state which does not harm our security will remain safe.? He also goes on to say how absurd it is that Bush claims the only reason why Bin Laden is terrorizing America is because ?They hate our freedom?. I?ve always thought that was a ridiculous statement, because it?s like a villain from a bad action movie who has no motive except to cause evil. It completely ignores that our saftey is related to how our government handles forgien policy.

Both presidential camps are trying to capitalize on this new tape, with Cheney claiming that the tape is "a reminder that we are engaged in a global war on terror." He also just happened to say that Bush would win it (surprise). Kerry brought up how Bush has failed to capture Bin Laden, and Bush, in his usual fear intimidation said "The terrorists who killed thousands of innocent people are still dangerous and they are determined."

Essentially, the people who end up getting hurt the most are the innocent people who had nothing to do with these policies in the first place. Most people are so filled with nationalistic pride that they claim making a change would be ?letting the terrorists win?. The big question is, does either side really win by trying to kill each other? How does the average citizen win by continuing policies that create the terrorism in the first place?

Osama also claims ?He [Bush] adopted despotism and the crushing of freedoms from Arab rulers and called it the Patriot Act, under the guise of combating terrorism ...? This is very true. This approach to combating terrorism has done more to take away the freedom of America then it has to keeping the country safe.

Before anyone response with an impassioned rant against what I?m saying, realize that I am mostly asking rhetorical questions, and I?m not claiming to know the answers to most of them. What I?m looking for is an intelligent answer or explanation. I?m looking for people to consider what I?m saying and respond thoughtfully. Don?t bother saying that I support terrorism or Osama Bin Laden (who I think is terrible). I don?t. I just want to see an end to this nonsense.


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineunbeliever
Yo Daddy!
 User Gallery
Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 5,158
Loc: Gallifrey
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism? (a reaction to the new Bin Laden tape) [Re: Twirling]
    #3297686 - 10/30/04 04:13 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I don't see how anyone can vote for Bush based on his stance on terrorism. Consider the facts, we get attacked on 9/11 by a "group of folks" (Bush's words, not mine), mainly from Saudi Arabia and master minded by Osama Bin Laden. Who happens to be the brother of Salem Bin Laden, the guy who helped finance Bush's oil company back in the day. Anyway, we get attacked and Bush declares the War on Terror promising to hunt down and kill Osama Bin Laden.

...Then a few months later...

I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

"I am truly not that concerned about him."
- G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts

And now.. Bin Laden is back and promising more terrorist attacks and more violence. Apparently live and well. Oh and don't forget we let the afghan war lords handle his "capture" attempt at tora bora. That pretty much proves that OBL and Al'Qaeda were never a priority for Bush. It's been Iraq since before he was innaugerated. We are now paying for his ignorance, his hubris and his inability to face and deal with reality. That's what happens when you surround yourself with nothing but yes men.

I sure as hell don't feel safer with Gee Dubya in charge. Quite the contrary. I think his foreign policy endangers our peace and security.


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleretread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
Re: How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism? (a reaction to the new Bin Laden tape) [Re: Twirling]
    #3297696 - 10/30/04 04:15 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Kill the terrorists.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism? (a reaction to the new Bin Laden tape) [Re: Twirling]
    #3297707 - 10/30/04 04:17 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism?

1. stop supporting oppressive governments.
2. bring our soldiers home as quickly and completely as possible.
3. aggressively persue terrorists and those that support them.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineunbeliever
Yo Daddy!
 User Gallery
Registered: 05/22/04
Posts: 5,158
Loc: Gallifrey
Last seen: 7 years, 8 months
Re: How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism? (a reaction to the new Bin Laden tape) [Re: retread]
    #3297711 - 10/30/04 04:18 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Oh yeah, the whole point of my reply was that electing Gee Dubya is not the way to stop terrorism. Honestly we need to do several things in order to reduce the threat of terrorism. Cowboy warfare is not the solution. Period.

We need to get off our dependency of middle eastern oil so that whatever military and political actions we do take over there aren't tainted by that. We need to give the terrorists as little recruitment propaganda as possible. That means not gunning down wedding parties, not torturing and abusing prisoners we capture, not kidnapping the families of terrorist, military and political leaders in order to get them to surrender. That means keeping promises we make before we occupy. It means a lot of things.


--------------------
Happiness is a warm gun...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 1 day
Re: How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism? (a reaction to the new Bin Laden tape) [Re: ]
    #3297794 - 10/30/04 04:47 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism?

1. stop supporting oppressive governments.

Iraq was an oppressive government. We didn't support it, did we? China is an oppressive government. Are we supporting it? Syria and Jordan and Iran are oppressive governments. Are we supporting them. N Korea is an oppressive government. Are we supporting it? I am going to assume that the specific oppressive government you are referring to is Saudi Arabia. Do you think that anent our support for the current Saudi regime there would be a LESS oppressive regime in charge there?

2. bring our soldiers home as quickly and completely as possible.

Are you just referring to Iraq or do you also include Afghanistan, S. Korea, and Europe? And anywhere else we might have foreign military bases?


3. aggressively persue terrorists and those that support them.

Seems a little inconsistent with #2. Removing a regime that was clearly our stated enemy and a friend to Islamo-fascist criminals with the potential to supply them with means to attack us and our friends seems to qualify as agressive to me. Did Iraq contribute directly to 9/11? No. Did they contribute to other criminal international activities? Clearly. Were they a threat to supply criminals with the means to attack us? Absolutely. See the Duelfer report. Who's next? And how do you expect to do it without troops?




--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTwirling
Barred Spiral
Male

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 2,468
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
Re: How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism? (a reaction to the new Bin Laden tape) [Re: unbeliever]
    #3297802 - 10/30/04 04:50 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

unbeliever said:
Oh yeah, the whole point of my reply was that electing Gee Dubya is not the way to stop terrorism. Honestly we need to do several things in order to reduce the threat of terrorism. Cowboy warfare is not the solution. Period.




I agree completely. He's showed either a complete unawareness of why terrorism exists ("They hate our freedom") or a manipulation of public fear (Patriot Act II). Probably both. He's been extemely enthnocentric and dogmatic in his approach, never admitting to any of the negative consquences of his actions and dismissing other people's voices on how things should be handled.

And sadly, it seems as if half of the American population supports this chowderhead. *sigh*


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTwirling
Barred Spiral
Male

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 2,468
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
Re: How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism? (a reaction to the new Bin Laden tape) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3297820 - 10/30/04 04:57 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Removing a regime that was clearly our stated enemy and a friend to Islamo-fascist criminals with the potential to supply them with means to attack us and our friends seems to qualify as agressive to me.




The Iraqi government was seen as too secular by radical Islamic fundementalists. Remember that at one point, al-Qaeda wanted to support Saudi Arabia by fighting against Iraq. The two don't have strong ties to each other as much as some other countries.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 1 day
Re: How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism? (a reaction to the new Bin Laden tape) [Re: Twirling]
    #3297852 - 10/30/04 05:09 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Is it your opinion that Al-Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden are the ONLY terrorist organizations that might want to strike us and do you think that Saddam would hesitate to help them if they wanted him to? You make the point that OBL didn't yet want Saddam's help, not that he was unwilling to give it.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism? (a reaction to the new Bin Laden tape) [Re: ]
    #3297853 - 10/30/04 05:09 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism?

1. stop supporting oppressive governments.
2. bring our soldiers home as quickly and completely as possible.
3. aggressively persue terrorists and those that support them.



:thumbup:

Though we need to clearly define "support" so that we're not just bombing people who just happen to be sympathetic to the terrorists.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism? (a reaction to the new Bin Laden tape) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3297878 - 10/30/04 05:18 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Do you think that anent our support for the current Saudi regime there would be a LESS oppressive regime in charge there?

it doesn't matter. our government's support for the saudi government is a source of muslim hatred for americans. same goes for isreal.

Are you just referring to Iraq or do you also include Afghanistan, S. Korea, and Europe? And anywhere else we might have foreign military bases?

yes.

Seems a little inconsistent with #2.

not at all. it is entirely possible to aggressively persue terrorists and those that support them without maintaining a large and permanent military presence on foriegn soil.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 1 day
Re: How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism? (a reaction to the new Bin Laden tape) [Re: ]
    #3297995 - 10/30/04 05:58 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
Do you think that anent our support for the current Saudi regime there would be a LESS oppressive regime in charge there?

it doesn't matter. our government's support for the saudi government is a source of muslim hatred for americans. same goes for isreal.

Is Israel one of your oppressive governments? Should I assume that your terrorism fighting methods include the removal of our support for the only democratic, non-oppressive government in the middle east? The Saudi government should be the target not us. I sincerely doubt that we would commit any troops to protect the Saudi royal family if there was a DOMESTIC uprising. I'm not entirely sure that just because OBL says they should go that that means the people of Saudi Arabia agree so unanimously. Do you really think we have ever squelched an INTERNAL uprising in Saudi Arabia with a CIA that is utterly incompetent on so many other issues in the mid-east?
Are you just referring to Iraq or do you also include Afghanistan, S. Korea, and Europe? And anywhere else we might have foreign military bases?

yes.

No troops on foreign soil, whether they want them or not, eh? Doesn't exactly seem proactive or effectively preparatory to me. Seems like isolationism to me, certainly not an "agressive" strategy

Seems a little inconsistent with #2.

not at all. it is entirely possible to aggressively persue terrorists and those that support them without maintaining a large and permanent military presence on foriegn soil.
How? Do you think we have fighter bombers that can fly halfway around the world? Or transport planes to deliver troops and tanks?




I am so glad that there are people who understand what is necessary to get things done in charge. And you should be too.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineTwirling
Barred Spiral
Male

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 2,468
Last seen: 1 year, 8 months
Re: How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism? (a reaction to the new Bin Laden tape) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3298004 - 10/30/04 06:04 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Is it your opinion that Al-Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden are the ONLY terrorist organizations that might want to strike us and do you think that Saddam would hesitate to help them if they wanted him to? You make the point that OBL didn't yet want Saddam's help, not that he was unwilling to give it.




They're certinaly not the ONLY terrorist organization out there, and I'm not arguing that we should completely let our guard down either. al-Qaeda remains the largest threat and mainly interested in stopping any attacks on Islamic interests. I think the bigger question is, if we were to cease our current controling of such forgien interests, would Bin Laden actually give up terrorising America, or would it continue anyway? I don't have the answer to that (although a country like Spain pulled out of Iraq after a terror attack, and they remained safe to the best of my knowledge).

It's also rather hard to justify the invasion of a country on conjecture. I don't really see what Saddam would have gained if he supported Bin Laden. It's also important to realize that Bin Laden was willing to attack Iraq at one point, so it's not as if they were the best of friends. Either way, you can't say that attacking someone because they might, on a possible outside chance help a terrorist organization is justified. There should be much stronger connections made before punishing a country for something they didn't do (and especially end up killing innocent people in the process).


--------------------
The very nature of experience is ineffable; it transcends cognitive thought and intellectualized analysis. To be without experience is to be without an emotional knowledge of what the experience translates into. The desire for the understanding of what life is made of is the motivation that drives us all. Without it, in fear of the experiences what life can hold is among the greatest contradictions; to live in fear of death while not being alive.



Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleGijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism? (a reaction to the new Bin Laden tape) [Re: silversoul7]
    #3298007 - 10/30/04 06:05 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Quote:

mushmaster said:
How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism?

1. stop supporting oppressive governments.
2. bring our soldiers home as quickly and completely as possible.
3. aggressively persue terrorists and those that support them.



:thumbup:

Though we need to clearly define "support" so that we're not just bombing people who just happen to be sympathetic to the terrorists.




:thumbup:


--------------------
what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism? (a reaction to the new Bin Laden tape) [Re: zappaisgod]
    #3298010 - 10/30/04 06:05 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Should I assume that your terrorism fighting methods include the removal of our support for the only democratic, non-oppressive government in the middle east?

the united states government has no obligation to provide aid to israel, and it does us more harm than good.

No troops on foreign soil, whether they want them or not, eh?

who the hell cares if they want them there?

How? Do you think we have fighter bombers that can fly halfway around the world? Or transport planes to deliver troops and tanks?

we have a navy. we can use it.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 6 months, 1 day
Re: How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism? (a reaction to the new Bin Laden tape) [Re: Twirling]
    #3298045 - 10/30/04 06:18 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Twirling said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Is it your opinion that Al-Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden are the ONLY terrorist organizations that might want to strike us and do you think that Saddam would hesitate to help them if they wanted him to? You make the point that OBL didn't yet want Saddam's help, not that he was unwilling to give it.




They're certinaly not the ONLY terrorist organization out there, and I'm not arguing that we should completely let our guard down either. al-Qaeda remains the largest threat and mainly interested in stopping any attacks on Islamic interests. I think the bigger question is, if we were to cease our current controling of such forgien interests, would Bin Laden actually give up terrorising America, or would it continue anyway? I don't have the answer to that (although a country like Spain pulled out of Iraq after a terror attack, and they remained safe to the best of my knowledge).
What current controlling of foreign interests are you referring to? Somebody will always find a reason to object to our, or anyone else's, actions, for that matter. As to Spain, I believe there was just a series of arrests there of several people planning further attacks. A whole other thread about how appeasement doesn't work.
It's also rather hard to justify the invasion of a country on conjecture. I don't really see what Saddam would have gained if he supported Bin Laden. It's also important to realize that Bin Laden was willing to attack Iraq at one point, so it's not as if they were the best of friends. Either way, you can't say that attacking someone because they might, on a possible outside chance help a terrorist organization is justified. There should be much stronger connections made before punishing a country for something they didn't do (and especially end up killing innocent people in the process).
The invasion and removal of Saddam was the final denouement to the activities of 12 years past, which would have been unnecessary if the UN wasn't such a cuntful organization. Iraq would have been a democratic nation for over a decade by now if we hadn't listened to the UN. Their statute of limitations would be up even without the Oil for Food scandal. (By the way, in regard to innocent civilian deaths see my post in that thread)








--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleretread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
Re: How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism? (a reaction to the new Bin Laden tape) [Re: silversoul7]
    #3298134 - 10/30/04 06:45 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
:thumbup:

Though we need to clearly define "support" so that we're not just bombing people who just happen to be sympathetic to the terrorists.




Would you support US troops kicking the doors down of Hamas members, executing them, and leaving with minimal collateral damage?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism? (a reaction to the new Bin Laden tape) [Re: retread]
    #3298141 - 10/30/04 06:47 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

that would depend on how easily one becomes a 'hamas member'.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleretread
-=HasH=-
Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 851
Re: How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism? (a reaction to the new Bin Laden tape) [Re: ]
    #3298181 - 10/30/04 06:56 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

why


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Anonymous

Re: How Can We Best Avoid/Stop Terrorism? (a reaction to the new Bin Laden tape) [Re: retread]
    #3298195 - 10/30/04 06:59 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

because you don't want the military kicking in doors and killing just anyone on the pretense that they are a terrorist, do you?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

Amazon Shop for: The Doors

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Bin Laden - Alive in Iran?
( 1 2 all )
Jammer 1,120 23 01/15/03 06:59 AM
by Voodoo Doll
* Is Bin Laden even alive?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
JesusChrist 3,057 79 10/30/04 01:09 PM
by Annapurna1
* Bin Laden tape a fake, Swiss lab says ekomstop 920 11 10/31/04 04:22 PM
by Xlea321
* Tehran Radio says Bin Laden Captured mabus 1,058 10 02/29/04 01:12 PM
by luvdemshrooms
* Bin laden offers truce to Europe?
( 1 2 all )
Xlea321 2,033 35 04/18/04 12:11 PM
by Xlea321
* So, about that Osama bin Laden Tape..
( 1 2 all )
Catalysis 2,674 36 01/21/06 04:06 PM
by Cubenisseur
* Bin Laden is located, says 9/11 panelist ekomstop 1,296 14 10/26/04 07:18 AM
by CJay
* Hunt for bin Laden still intense Luddite 505 3 08/19/06 05:57 AM
by RosettaStoned

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Prisoner#1, Enlil
2,139 topic views. 1 members, 2 guests and 5 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Edabea
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.133 seconds spending 0.003 seconds on 17 queries.