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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism?
#4810869 - 10/16/05 12:57 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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President Bush hailed the vote as a victory for opponents of terrorism.
Try, just try, to stay on topic. Forget your views pro or con on the war for a moment and let's just deal with the above statement.
How did the US constitution protect the World Trade Center?
How will the Iraqi constitution decrease violence and make the USA or her allies any safer?
Would 9/11 have likely been prevented if Iraq had a constitution back in 2001?
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Los_Pepes
Stranger
Registered: 06/26/05
Posts: 731
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Swami]
#4811520 - 10/16/05 03:59 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Is this too difficult for you to understand, Swami? Let me know and I'll explain it to you.
Official Text
Transcript: Zogby Says Arab Americans Support Fight Against Terrorism (Says community gratified by President's, officials' support)
October 25, 2001
Arab Americans "very strongly" support President Bush's efforts to fight terrorism and his outreach to the community, said James Zogby, President of the Arab American Institute.
Arab Americans are "very strongly supportive of eliminating terrorism even if it involves a war against a country harboring terrorists, very committed to pursuing the peace process and feeling strongly that pursuing the peace process is the best way to strengthen the coalition's resolve to fight terrorism," Zogby said in an October 24 briefing at the Foreign Press Center in Washington, DC.
Zogby said that like all Americans, Arab Americans were both devastated and angered by the September 11 attacks.
"We were as stunned, as shocked, as horrified and as angered. In a particular way, as it became clear that Arabs were involved, there was a special anger, I think. The fact that people of Arab descent had taken advantage of America, taken advantage of the goodness of Americans, had used opportunities made available to them here for the sole purpose of finding a way to kill our fellow citizens angered us," Zogby said.
The attacks also angered Arab Americans because of the backlash of ethnic discrimination against them, Zogby said.
In spite the discrimination, however, Zogby described the expressions of compassion and support from President Bush, Cabinet officials, members of Congress, and others from civic and community-based organizations "extraordinarily gratifying."
Regarding the motives of the perpetrators, Zogby said he believes al-Qaida is neither a political movement nor a religious movement and that there is a conceptual need to separate al-Qaida from the broader issues of the Middle East.
"This was not a political act; this was an act of desperation, anger, hatred, and murder," Zogby said.
Following is the transcript of Zogby's briefing:
(begin transcript)
MODERATOR: With us today is James Zogby, who is the President of the Arab American Institute. And he will -- I've asked him to start by just explaining in a couple of minutes what the Institute is and its background and what its work is, and then he will offer some reflections of the Arab American community's perspective on what has happened since September 11th and what the road ahead might look like.
Thank you very much.
MR. ZOGBY: Good afternoon. My name is James Zogby and I am the President of the Arab American Institute and I will, as instructed, tell you a bit about who we are and what we do. The Arab American Institute was formed in 1985 with a very central focus. It was to involve Arab Americans in the mainstream of American politics. We had had a difficulty in getting our community accepted by the two major political parties and, by having an Arab American presence in the political mainstream, through voter registration, through organizing people into the political parties, by getting involved in candidate support work and by learning to raise issues in the context of electoral politics, we have, over the last 15 years, literally transformed, I think, the face of the community and transformed its presence in politics.
You will all recall in the last election, in the 2000 presidential races, there was a significant emphasis on the Arab American vote. That had begun, actually, in '96, but was really the fruits of more than a decade's labor on the part of the institute. We have people involved now in a whole range of political activities from campaign pros and consultants, in almost every election -- 50-plus Arab American candidates running for office. There are six members of Congress, we have a number of mayors. I think this year, there are six candidates running right now for mayor who are Arab American. And at each convention, there are in the range -- the last few conventions -- of about 80 or so Arab Americans who are delegates, both Democratic and Republican Party delegates to the conventions.
Because we focus on bringing people into the political mainstream, we have established a broad network of Arab Americans who are political leaders. We call it the Arab American Leadership Council. It is more than 400 Arab Americans who are elected officials or who are elected or appointed party and political leaders. It forms, actually, the backbone of our organization's structure and is our face to the larger community; it is the goal we have to bring more of our people into that kind of political work.
We also do political policy -- that is, work. We are focused extensively, obviously, on foreign affairs issues. We were heavily involved in a range of activity around the peace process during the last administration. Vice President Gore asked me to be one of the co-chairs of Builders for Peace, that was a project that he had initiated to support the peace process by creating private investment and job opportunities in the West Bank and Gaza.
We also were involved in doing a number of study papers on issues affecting the peace process. We also have been involved in issues regarding other Middle East issues, including Lebanon and Syria, those two tracks, and issues involving the situation with Iraq.
On the domestic front, we have been engaged in issues primarily focused on those kinds of things that affect immigrant communities, but I would also say particularly our immigrant community. Those would be principally immigration issues, civil rights issues, discrimination, hate crime questions, and also issues that were brought to our community resulting from the anti-terror legislation that was passed in 1996 that included provisions like secret evidence and like a ban on fundraising for groups that may be only incidentally connected with terrorist activity in the Middle East.
While we had, I think, a very successful run during the last administration at muting many of these questions -- profiling at airports, for example, we practically eliminated. Secret evidence, virtually everyone who had been held on secret evidence had been freed by the end of the Clinton era. Clearly, the events of September 11th reintroduced many concerns that we will have to be dealing with.
But let me just focus, if I can, on the events regarding the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington and then go from there to some of the concerns that have come from out of that.
Like all Americans, we were devastated by what occurred on the 11th of September. We were as stunned, as shocked, as horrified and as angered. In a particular way, as it became clear that Arabs were involved, there was a special anger, I think. The fact that people of Arab descent had taken advantage of America, taken advantage of the goodness of Americans, had used opportunities made available to them here for the sole purpose of finding a way to kill our fellow citizens angered us.
Also, I would say, it angered us because they have brought down on us a backlash that is real and has had a very -- created many difficulties for people around the country. We have polled Arab Americans, and I will -- the poll is available out front, I want you to take it. And we have learned a great deal, both from our polling of the country as a whole and their attitudes towards Arab Americans, but also we have polled Americans -- Arab Americans to learn how they feel about what is going on.
We find, for example, that Arab Americans are very strongly supportive of the President's efforts, very strongly supportive of the President's outreach to the community, very strongly supportive of eliminating terrorism even if it involves a war against a country harboring terrorists, very committed to pursuing the peace process and feeling strongly that pursuing the peace process is the best way to strengthen the coalition's resolve to fight terrorism. And, finally, we find that Arab Americans are particularly concerned about discrimination. Twenty percent of those we polled indicate that they have incurred some form of discrimination based on ethnicity since September 11th, and those numbers climb precipitously when you deal with vulnerable groups: Students, almost 45 percent; women, a high number, especially women who are in the workplace; recent immigrants and Muslims who are of Arab descent, again, in the high 30 percentile.
Meaning that those vulnerable groups, those groups who are most visible as immigrants are the ones who have suffered the most. But a large number, a larger number than might be expected of first and second generation Arab Americans have also experienced these kinds of problems.
Let me just give you a bit of demographics about the community, because I think that that is always useful to develop a picture. I probably should have done that from the beginning, but I'll back into it. More than three-quarters of Arab Americans are born here. More than three-quarters of Arab Americans are Christian. Almost 60 percent of Arab Americans are of Lebanese descent. The numbers that we actually get are more like in the high 50s are Lebanese and then about 14 percent Syrian. But actually, that number of those who are listed as Syrian, many of them are Lebanese because they come from that generation who call themselves, in fact, Syrian-Lebanese; they came before the foundation of the Syrian and Lebanese states. The next largest groups are Egyptian and Palestinian. There is a large Iraqi and Yemeni community. And, increasingly, North African communities are coming to the country.
But the community is, within itself, quite diverse. It is diverse based on religion, diverse based on country of origin, and diverse based on the generation of time in America. And so it is intriguing, when you have a community of this diversity, that when you find points of consensus within the community, then you have sort of the defining characteristics of that community. And we are finding in polling that we have done over the years, that in fact those characteristics exist, whether first generation or recent immigrant, whether second generation or first generation. People of Arab descent feel strongly about their ethnicity, they feel strongly about a number of foreign policy issues, and have consensus views, for example, on the rights of Palestinians to a state in the high 90s. Consensus also about the need for a two-state solution to the Middle East conflict. Consensus, as well, about issues involving discrimination in airport profiling. So, in other words, when we act on these issues, we act on these issues because we know they're right, but also because we know that we have a substantial base of support in the community.
Now, based on that, let me go back again and just reiterate some of the points I made and then I will take questions. There should be no question that Arab Americans saw the events of September 11th as Americans. They grieved with the rest of the country and were angered. As I have expressed it on a number of occasions, what was therefore most disturbing about the backlash was the extent to which it pulled us away from the grief and treated us almost as a part of the body politic. What has been extraordinarily gratifying has been the extent to which from the President on down, including Cabinet officials, senators, members of Congress and so many others from civic and community-based organizations who have reached out to Arab Americans to offer them a degree of support and protection, to say in effect, come back and mourn with us, you are a part of us.
And the community has responded on every level, whether it was Arab American firemen from states around the country who went to New York to become part of the rescue effort, Arab Americans who were already in the New York City Police Department and Fire Department who volunteered for extra duty because they felt like other New Yorkers and all New Yorkers, riveted by this enormous tragedy. To Arab Americans who organized blood drives, who organized fundraising drives, who organized community-based efforts. To those who volunteered and have now become part of the FBI and National Guard's efforts to improve translation skills because they have asked us and we gave them people who -- in fact, in record numbers, who turned out to offer their language skills to law enforcement agencies as we were -- as we were asked to do. We actually asked them to take the thing off of our web site because they said they were getting too many responses.
The bottom line is that we are in this together. And the community, in its attitude and in its performance, has made that very clear. That doesn't mean there are no problems, doesn't mean we don't have problems to deal with. We want to both be part of the general discussion on foreign policy as to how we proceed; we also want to be part of the discussion about how we proceed with regard to some of the domestic issues that are confronting us.
I am not convinced that saying "no profiling" is enough, when in fact profiling is indeed taking place. I am not convinced that saying, "This is a war that is not a war against Islam but is a war against terrorism," is enough, when in fact that message is not being read. There is a need to both improve our message and to improve our performance so that, in fact, the message is received.
And I think that there are many contributions that we can make, that we are eager to make, and we are therefore continuing to meet with elected officials from the President on down, to make it clear the contribution that we can and I believe should be playing at this critical time to assist the nation in this effort.
And I will end there and take questions if you have them.
MODERATOR: Thank you. Okay, well, we'll start with the gentleman in the middle.
Q: Yes, I am from the newspaper Pacinadose* from Argentina. You mentioned the organizations that have been linked incidentally or not with efforts of fund -- raising funds for terrorism. This is always mentioned -- it's never clear exactly how strong they are in the United States or exactly if they are important in the Islamic community -- in the Arab community? Or if they are -- so even in the cases of the fronts whose connection with terrorism, if any, is incidental, I would be interested in knowing exactly what part of the community and what kind of influence they have in the Arab American community, because it does not usually appear in the news reports.
MR. ZOGBY: The issue here, as the law is written, is not regarding the American organizations, it is regarding the institutions overseas. For example, what the law suggests is that if there is a hospital or a day care program, for example, run by a group, a Palestinian organization that is on the list, and that Palestinian institution runs, as it does run, a day care program in refugee camps in Lebanon and you contribute to that, that fund, the fund that supports that day care center or that women's health care project, because the particular group in question is, in fact, a leftist organization that runs these kinds of projects directed at women and children, services that aren't provided by anyone else. The way the law is currently written is that, if you contribute to that fund, it is considered support for terrorism.
Similarly, if you are contributing to a mosque fund and the mosque fund here is supporting an Islamic social welfare institution in the Middle East, whether in West Bank Gaza or in any Arab country, that is deemed somehow linked with any one of the groups that are considered on the terrorism list, then you are deemed supporting terrorist activity. And that's a concern that we have, because it's too loose a definition. It creates a guilt by association. It also creates, I think, a problem for individuals who do not have knowledge of the connection. And also calls into question at times the definition of the connection involved. I may disagree with the politics of this group, I may condemn the behavior of this group, I may consider the group terrorist.
But if an individual without awareness of that fact is contributing to a hospital that may be affiliated with that group, and as we went into the questioning of administration officials and members of Congress who were writing the legislation, we said, what does "affiliation with the group" mean? They said, well, if a member of the board of that hospital is a member of HAMAS, that's affiliation. That is way too loose a definition, and actually requires, I think, much greater effort on the part of the American Government to make clear -- the terrorism list then would not simply include 26, 27, 30 organizations, but would end up including literally hundreds of organizations and hospitals and schools and day care programs, et cetera, that I simply think is both unmanageable and I also think raises serious constitutional questions for American citizens. And so we have been concerned about that.
I can't put percentages on it. I can't put percentages on it. I can't put percentages on it. What I can tell you is that I don't think the numbers are that large, the amounts are that large. Quite simply, the numbers are not that large, because if there is one thing I know, having worked in this community for the number of years I have, simply put the amount of money that is raised here is not that great, is not -- is not sufficient enough to make the kind of impact that some articles I've read suggest.
In fact, what we do know is that if there is a serious problem at all, and what we've heard from intelligence -- people in intelligence agencies in the Middle East and here in America is that the most serious problem is money laundering. That is to say, is money coming from the region through banks in Europe to banks in the United States and then funneled back to groups in the Middle East? Now, if you want to lump all that together as some reporters and American newspapers have done and say $30 million a year is going from the United States to HAMAS, that's one way to put it. I simply don't think that is a fair way to make that case because it makes it appear that well over the amount of money that my community is capable of giving or interested in giving to any group in the Middle East is being donated, and it creates an impression that I think simply doesn't hold -- hold out, and does in fact, I think, put my community at risk. Those numbers have been used and I think they are simply wrong, because they mix money that's funneled with money that's raised.
And the amount of money that's raised actually is much smaller and does -- in fact, where we know that it goes from reports that have been published, from organizations, some of the groups -- one of the charity groups that has been under suspicion, the numbers are in the few million dollars. And, frankly, their books are open, their books have been audited, their books have been repeatedly gone over by federal -- federal agents. And they have never been charged with any illegality or even any violation of the 1996 law. And so frankly it becomes a continuing smear campaign against some of these organizations that I think creates, I think, a danger for many, many people in the community. Fear, fear factor.
Q My name is Ben Bangora*. Next month will mark the beginning of Ramadan in Islamic world. As part of its effort to muster Arab support for its military enterprise against Afghanistan, do you think of the United States should call off air strikes against this state?
MR. ZOGBY: I absolutely do. And I think it is a situation that we should have thought through before we started. But, frankly, those who suggest that it is not a problem or should not be a problem or point to the Iran-Iraq war, I think, make a serious mistake. We are neither Iran nor Iraq; we are the United States of America and we have a special vulnerability in this situation and ought to be aware of that vulnerability and act on it. Frankly, I don't think that -- and if I were asked, my advice would be that, during the month of Ramadan, we should not engage in military activity. End of -- full stop.
Q: (Off mic.)
Q:Hi, this is Khaled Abdel Karem* with Middle East News Agency of Egypt. My question is about the -- there was a belief before September 11 that the US is an inclusive society, that it welcomes immigrants from all parts of the world, regardless of ethnic, religious, or national backgrounds. After the 9/11 backlash against Arabs and Muslims in that country, do you believe that understanding, that premise stands?
And if I may raise one more point that is about the people being detained, so far hundreds, and I guess almost all of them are Arabs and Muslims, we have reports that they are being mistreated, that their rights, legal rights are not (inaudible). Do you have anything to confirm the extent of mistreatment and what the community leaders are doing to speak to the American officials, John Ashcroft or whoever, to just check that matter?
Thank you.
MR. ZOGBY: Two very important issues, but I want to begin by making an observation before I answer both. And that is, I wrote an article a few weeks ago called "I am angry." And in the article what I noted was that I am angry at a whole lot of things. But fundamentally, I am angry that 19 people who were Arabs came to my country, did not come to join my civil society, did not come to join my organizations, did not come to participate in the opportunities that this country holds for immigrants, but came here to commit an act of murder and they did. And, in the process of doing so, they put my fellow citizens at risk and they put my community at risk.
I am also angry at the hate crimes. But, at the end of the day, when I reflect on it, my anger goes out first to the 19 individuals who did this because they are the ones who brought this down on us. And, yes, I want to stop those bigots who have done what they've done and we've been doing work overtime to stop them. And, frankly speaking, the hate crimes are today at a level that they were before September 11th. They have practically been reduced to one or two or three incidents a day.
We are having some problems with law enforcement, and I will talk to you about that. But the burning of a mosque or the threatening phone calls or the actual acts of violence have virtually been eliminated because -- and this gets to your first point -- I do not recall a time when America performed as America ought to perform as well as it has in the last six weeks. From the President on down, I have never seen more expressions of compassion, of support, of commitment to inclusion as I've seen from the highest levels down to, as I said, civic organizations, Baptist churches reaching out and saying, we will offer protection to women going to the mosque on Friday. People saying, we will offer support -- people in my own office building, because we got death threats, making potluck lunches and Ben and Jerry offering an ice cream party to apologize for the hate crimes that we had received and Mrs. Fields bringing cookies, and we all got fat, you know, because people were -- literally, people were making brownies. I mean, sort of the stories you read about when you're in third grade of the farm burned down and everybody in town came and offered help. That's what happened to us.
We were getting volunteers. We were actually getting volunteers at my office from people in no -- people who had been like assistant secretaries of state in previous administrations, who offered to go to New York. And when they were turned down in New York because they didn't need volunteers, they called and they said, we want to do something to help, can we come and work for you. That was the kind of response that we were getting. And the e-mails that we were getting were in the 20-, 30-to-one range support, and apologies.
And now, even after the initial wave of anger from some, because we wrote back to every one of them, I've gotten back letters from people saying, I'm so sorry for what I said to you in early September, please forgive me, I can't -- my conscience is bothering me for what I said and did.
And so, frankly, I think that we've all got a civics lesson. We've all gotten a civics lesson in the greatness of America. And I have to tell you, I went out the weekend after the 11th. And I remember going through Best Buy and I was looking around watching, just watching. I was over by the Pentagon. And I saw a couple of women in hejabbin, a couple of young guys who looked obviously like young Arab guy students, and I saw how some people looked at them and stared at them, and there was anger, and there was fear, and there was fear.
But I also saw some other people stop them and say, I just wanted to say hello to you and tell you I'm concerned about you, and how are you doing today. I mean, there was kind of both, there was the mix of both.
And part of me said to the folks who were angry and suspicious, that, you know, damn you, how dare you do that, these are just young kids, innocent kids. But then I thought of those 19 guys, and I thought, that's what they did. That's what they did. And so this may sound strange coming from me, but it's got to come from me. And the message that I've sent to the Arab world is, do not do this to us again. Do not do this to us again. Do not do this to the American people, but certainly don't think you are doing any favor for the causes that you say you hold dear when you do this, because they have put us at risk. And people are suspicious of us. And, frankly, what can I say right now? I mean, it's hard. It's a hard situation for everybody. And we have to fight the bigotry but we also have to fight those who precipitated the bigotry by bringing this down on us. It is a terrible situation. But it wouldn't have been, if 19 guys and whoever the heck sent them hadn't done this. We would have been in a different situation.
The up side of it, and it is difficult to find an up side, but if anything has given me hope it is how many articles have I seen in the last six weeks about Muslims in America? How many articles have I seen about Arab Americans in America? How many articles have I seen about Islam, period? How many articles have I seen of elected officials or public leaders saying, don't -- and public service announcements and advertising. And if you saw that one marvelous two-hour benefit sponsored by all of those Hollywood stars to raise money, how many messages in there, just a few days -- I mean, the fires were still burning. They offered message after message after message, saying don't attack Muslims, don't attack Arabs, that's not America. What other country in the world would do that? Frankly speaking, what other country in the world would do that? And, frankly speaking, I can't think of one. My dad came to the right place.
You know, I have to tell you, my country performed admirably. We've got problems. We're fighting the problems. We have the freedom to fight the problems. We also have a determination to fight the problems. But we have a country in which we can fight the problems and I believe we can win.
Q (Off mic.)
MR. ZOGBY: The detainees, that's a problem, and we're fighting that problem. And I met with Ashcroft and I personally raised the issue with the Attorney General. And I said, look, you're using a number, 800-and-something. And then you give us two other numbers, three material witnesses and 154 on immigration. I said, disaggregate the rest. Tell us who they are. Are they even in jail now? We don't know. We don't know what the numbers are. And, frankly, I am, as an American, upset and a little suspicious about what this number means and I'm concerned about it.
My sense is that the FBI went running around and cast a very big net. And when you cast a big net too big, you end up catching a whole lot of fish you didn't want to catch. And I think that is pretty much what the case is right now. And I think that rather than -- they say at the FBI the FBI always gets their man. That one I'm not always sure about. But what I'm sure about is that the FBI never apologizes when they don't. And they, in fact, have made a number of mistakes. I believe they have made a number of mistakes here. And we are learning about some of the mistakes as we go along.
The New York Times had that marvelous piece about a Saudi doctor down in Texas. But I think there are a whole lot more stories like that before we're done. And I know there are a whole lot of students who simply overstayed -- visa over-stays, but they are being held. I will tell you, Amnesty International just did a major piece on it, asking a series of tough questions. I know that Congress is considering some hearings on this matter. I know most of the civil rights organizations in America are beginning to address -- the ACLU and others are addressing this question. And most of the major news agencies have assigned investigative reporters to get to the bottom of this.
We will solve this one, but it clearly is a problem. When we speak about problems, this is one of them. And it simply is not law enforcement at its best right now and we've got to deal with it.
Q:(Off mic.)
MR. ZOGBY: I'm happy now, though. I'm calm.
Q: That's calm. It's okay, fine. Especially it's good that you have had the chance to talk in not just sound bytes; it's TV, you know.
Going to normalcy, "normalcy," definitely it seems that -- I assume that the discourse is going to be more than political; it's going to be cultural, whatever you can call it, how you understand, why your people in that part of the world are thinking different, and all these -- why they hate us and all this. Do you think that your institutional role is going to be a little bit changed or reshaped? Are you going to be part of this discourse or just being politics? I think this is politics now, it is true.
And at the same time, there is always a question, what's going to be the role of Americans, Arab Americans, with the countries that they came from? Because for a while it was always the assumption was that those countries saying to Arab Americans talk for us, demand for us. And what is the -- always the discussion has to be two way, you know? That's my --
MR. ZOGBY: Let me deal with the second one first, and I'll give you more of an academic answer than you probably want and maybe more of one than I ought to give, because it will open doors and create problems that I will be answering questions for a period of time. But I am just going to do some thinking. Jenny is sitting back there dreading -- she says, don't open a door here you don't want to close.
But let me tell you something. There have been a number of very formative incidents that have occurred, that have shaped the Arab American community. We are only 30 years old as a community, coming together in an institutional forum. Clearly, the civil war in Lebanon was one of these moments, where the issue of self-definition occurred. But even with that and the assertion of an Arab identity over a country-specific identity was a problem then.
As we got into the Gulf War, another issue occurred, and that was partly this question of a differentiated versus undifferentiated self-definition. I remember it hit home with me very clearly when I was out debating this issue of the deployment of troops and I had supported the deployment of troops and I was in Chicago. And a guy stood up and he said, you have betrayed the community because you supported foreign forces on our soil.
I know the guy. And I said, number one, it's not our soil; it is Saudi Arabia's soil. And, number two, they're not foreign; they're us. Thereare 3,000 Arab Americans in the US military right now in the Gulf. They are us, and they're our kids and they're your neighbors, and they're your customers. And they're who we are. We're American.
And I think that there was a shock to the system then, as people had to go through in particular between the generation born here and the recent immigrant generation. It was, you've got to pick, you've got to choose. This does the same thing. This does the same thing.
And this does a cleaning up of the language stuff. Some of the groups, some of the groups skirted a bit close to the edge and would try to use language about terrorism that came awful close to justifying it. No justification for it. My last article, I made the point about that. And I intend to do more about it.
We are either going to engage in this debate or we're not going to. There are some issues that you didn't engage in. We have to engage in all the issues of debate. We are Americans. We are part of the political and ongoing policy debate in this country. And we have a right to participate in that debate. But we also have an obligation in participating in that debate to clean up our own act, but also to send a message back to the Middle East that there is an act that has got to be cleaned up there too. And so we will approach it from that perspective.
I sit now on the Council of Foreign Relations Task Force dealing with the issue of terrorism. Believe me, they've got an act to clean up. You've got guys who in part dug the hole that America is in in the Middle East over the last 20 years trying to figure out right now how to get out of the hole and they're too far in to figure out how.
We have -- we have ideas to bring to them. But we also have ideas to bring to the region about people who are saying, we do not serve the Middle East well when we act as surrogates for them here. They don't need surrogates. They need American voices who feel compassion for them, who feel concern for them, who feel a sense of wanting justice for them and balance. But to approach them as Americans and say here's -- from where we stand in America, here is what we see and what we do.
I remember going to meetings with heads of state as they would come through here and it is remarkable at the transformation. Twenty years ago, Arab heads of state came to town and didn't see us. In the last 10 years, they have been meeting with us. But at these meetings, with some of the people in the room, you would think that they were talking to their head of state.
It was interesting when the Secretary General of the Arab League was just here in town. At the discussion that we had, it was crystal clear that he was not the spokesperson of our community; he is the spokesperson of the Arabs who is meeting with an Arab constituency that wanted to engage him in a dialogue, not in a monologue. We were not exiles. And he was most respectful of that.
But it was a critical, critical departure from previous times when I remember he would come and some of the people in the room would say what you have to say. It's not my job to tell him what he has to say. It's not my job to talk to him like a representative of me. He's not my representative. I vote for my representative every two years. Actually, I don't because I live in the District and we don't have a representative. (Laughter.) That's another story.
But I think that's an important issue. This is who we are. And I think that this crisis, this tragedy, is also helping to reshape and redefine our community. And it is an important moment for all of us.
Okay. One more.
MODERATOR:We've got time for maybe -- we'll take one more final one up here up in the front.
MR. ZOGBY: Then I've got to go see our Secretary of Energy, who is an Arab American.
Q:Thank you. This is Khaled Abdel Karem* again. I just have one point about --
MR. ZOGBY: Are you going to make this one easier?
Q: Yeah, it will be much easier. (Laughter.)
While, saying that the perpetrators of the September 11 attacks, wherever they are, are not speaking for Arabs or Muslims, don't you believe that we have root causes for terrorism, root causes for anti-American attitudes, anti-American feelings being fielded in the Middle East for, let's say, decades now, don't you believe that these causes should be examined in a way?
And one more point. When the US President just said and repeated saying either with us or with terrorists, this is very much like classifying the people between believers and infidels and saying that -- well, either with me or not. Don't you believe that this is an unfair classification that really strips many nations of their very sovereign right to choose what they can and what they should do in light of their domestic considerations?
Thank you.
MR. ZOGBY: Let me just deal with the second part first because in some ways it's the easier one. And that is that I will -- I will overall give the President fairly high grades for his performance over the last several weeks. And I say fairly high grades, because I make no bones about it, I was not a fan of this President, you know, for reasons going well beyond the Middle East. I was supportive of another candidate last time. But I think, as many Americans will say, he certainly rose to the occasion.
I think that many of the comments he made early on were focused on a domestic audience. And it's almost imperative. I mean, one of the crises we have living in this modern media age is that the window is -- you know, the window is open all the time. Everything you say, you're always center stage. And you're center stage now not just to -- you know, you can't just go and speak to the teachers in Chicago. You've also got to go speak to the taxpayers on the north side. And you can't just go and talk to an African American audience and hope that, you know, whites on the other side of town don't hear you. Everybody hears everything you say, including the fact that in this confrontation a speech he made to make Americans feel I am resolved and I'm tough and we're going to get out of this problem and we're going to deal with it is also being heard all over the world. So wanted dead or alive made people feel great here; it didn't work overseas. It was, you know, whatever.
But he has tried to balance the message and tried to hone it and refine it as he has moved forward, addressing a domestic audience, addressing a foreign audience, to the point now where I think that the more subtle approach that is being used has come through more clearly at this point. The fact that this coalition is a broader effort than "you're with us or against us," that some groups were included, some groups were not included. Some messages were sent, some messages weren't sent. The outreach to the Palestinians has been ongoing. The messages of Secretary Powell, both public and private, some of which have come out, have also been clear.
So I would give fairly high performance marks for a very complicated effort of balancing a message, that if he had come off sounding like a wuss, well, you know, I know that some of you got problems and I'm with you but, you know -- you know, Americans would have been in shock the whole time. The one reason Giuiliani could be -- I mean, because Giuiliani has been a tough SOB all his political career; he could be soft. Bush had to prove his mettle to the American people and so he sounded tough and cowboy and whatever. Then he had to bring it down, and I think he's done it. I think most people are feeling okay where we are right now around the world.
With regard to the first question you raise, I think that there is a conceptual need to separate al-Qaida and the broader issues in the region. There is no root cause for crashing planes into the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and hijacking and murdering innocent people. There is no root cause for that, no political cause. And al-Qaida, I don't believe, is a political movement. I also don't think it's a religious movement. I think it's a cult. I think it is an interesting phenomenon. It is a death cult that grew up out of an experience which, when I relate it to Americans and suggest to them, think of Vietnam vets, young, white, middle class kids, upper middle class some of them, go off, fight a war, come home, nobody understands them. Not only don't understand them but in this case rejected them. Not only rejected them but, in this case, were suspicious of them and made their lives miserable.
And then they, like more precisely World War II vets, who had spent a much longer period of time than Vietnam vets, were trying to explain, my comrades died in my arms. You know, and there was a brotherhood, there was a fraternity. We were in this great struggle against the evil empire together and we won. Don't you understand that? They all ended up gravitating back.
And sort of the psychological roots of this very disturbed movement began out of that rejection and anger and frustration. And it was cultified with a religious message that really wasn't religion as much as it was a kid of an absolving, a cure, a solution of a purity and a refinement of a message that said, you can have it all, you know, and you won't be rejected. You can be the leader, the king. You can do -- I mean, to understand this movement is to understand the need to provide therapy for young guys and/or stop them dead in their tracks. But not to think that -- I mean, when the guy flew the plane into the building, the last thing on his mind was Palestine tomorrow. This was not a political act; this was a psychological act of desperation, anger, hatred and murder. End of -- postal workers all have a grievance, right? Some guy in California goes out and shoots up the Post Office. Was he acting on the grievance? No.
When my postman walks up the steps to my house, do I think, oh, my God, he's going to shoot me? No. Because the distance between the grievance that's legitimate and the act of insane murder is exactly that, it's insane murder. And so there is a psychological issue here, not a political issue here. No rational accounting in cause for this act.
But where the issues of root causes come in is in the coalition building effort. If we want the broader Arab world unified with us and providing full resolve, then we have to close the gap between us and them that's existed now for, well, too many years. And a principal issue here is, of course, the Palestinian issue. There is a compassion gap, if you will. We want them to feel compassion for us, and many do.
But others, while we are focused on Afghanistan, others are riveted right now on Bethlehem -- (end of tape side A) -- these little kids die every day, and he's saying, that could be my kids, that could be me. That's my hurt, that's my wound. It is an open wound for the whole Arab world.
And the fact that America has let it go for too long and has somehow been silent, especially over the last several months while it went on, has made a compassion gap, and that's an issue we have to look at. In just that language, compassion gap to close, in order to strengthen the coalition.
You could solve Palestine tomorrow and Usama bin Laden and his crew are still going to be doing what they're doing. And so there has to be -- we have to conceptually separate out the coalition building effort which is why Palestine becomes a critical issue, so we can strengthen the resolve internationally to allow us collectively to wipe out this scourge. That is the way to see this phenomenon right now, and I'll end right there.
Thank you very much.
MODERATOR:Thank you very much.
(end transcript)
(Distributed by the Office of International Information Programs, U.S. Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)
***
http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:6hs...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
Edited by Los_Pepes (10/16/05 04:01 PM)
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Prosgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?
Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Los_Pepes]
#4811583 - 10/16/05 04:13 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Please 'splain yourself Lucy, because you make no sense with your four year old article.
-------------------- Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes. You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way. - Tom Willhite Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.
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Los_Pepes
Stranger
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Posts: 731
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Swami]
#4811831 - 10/16/05 05:34 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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"Modern Liberals, With Some Exceptions, Are Fascists. They Preach Peace At The Expense Of Liberty, Diversity At The Expense Of Common Sense, Equality At The Expense Of Fairness And Choice At The Expense Of Life. They Are The First To Speak About Rights, Yet They Seek To Deny You Yours If You Disagree With Them. They Vociferate The Importance Of Free Speech, Yet Do Everything In Their Power To Stifle Yours. They Demonize The Very System Which Allows Them The Freedom To Criticize In The First Place, And They Are The Last People In Line When It Comes To Defending The One Country On Earth That Would Ever Tolerate Their Hypocrisy. They Are Divisive, Immoral And Utterly Incapable Of Understanding Why Everything I Just Wrote Is The Truth." - Edward L. Daley
http://massgraves.info/
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Los_Pepes]
#4811834 - 10/16/05 05:35 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Los_Pepes]
#4812273 - 10/16/05 07:03 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Is this too difficult for you to understand, Swami? Let me know and I'll explain it to you.
I just gave you a chance and you are unable to give me any straight answers to some relatively simple questions.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Swami]
#4812327 - 10/16/05 07:11 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said: President Bush hailed the vote as a victory for opponents of terrorism.
Try, just try, to stay on topic. Forget your views pro or con on the war for a moment and let's just deal with the above statement.
How did the US constitution protect the World Trade Center?
How will the Iraqi constitution decrease violence and make the USA or her allies any safer?
Would 9/11 have likely been prevented if Iraq had a constitution back in 2001?
The question game!
I don't want to answer yours because they don't make sense. I want you to answer mine!
Since the terrorists are aiming to disintegrate the democratic process by deliberately targeting politicians, organizers, policemen, and threatening civilians if they vote, how isn't a victory for an Iraqi constitution a blow to the insurgency?
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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kilgore_trout
Stranger
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: looner2]
#4812385 - 10/16/05 07:21 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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he said terrorism, not (iraqi) insurgency.
-------------------- "I didnt fight a secret war in nicaragua so you could walk these streets of freedom bad-mouthing lady america in your damn mirrored sunglasses."
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Swami]
#4812395 - 10/16/05 07:24 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said: President Bush hailed the vote as a victory for opponents of terrorism.
Try, just try, to stay on topic. Forget your views pro or con on the war for a moment and let's just deal with the above statement.
How did the US constitution protect the World Trade Center?
For every year of it's existence it was protected by the constitutionally provided armed forces, as is every other aspect of the US. To expect the constitutionally provided for armed forces to have a perfect record is absurd, as is the question. In fact, the constitution sets forth the means by which the wealth necessary to construct such an edifice was even accrued. By means I refer to the clauses of the constitution which prohibit excessive government interference in commerce.
How will the Iraqi constitution decrease violence and make the USA or her allies any safer?
It will contribute to a furtherance of the ongoing process towards the democritization of Iraq. When the people have a say in their own well being they tend not to support egomaniacal leaders embarking on wars of aggression. Don't even bother. Further, it is part of the process of ending any possibility of the success of whackjobs, foreign and domestic, in achieving their aims of controlling that nation. A complete positive
Would 9/11 have likely been prevented if Iraq had a constitution back in 2001?
Maybe. If they had one in 1988, surely. If they had one in '88 there probably would have been no Kuwait invasion and no US troops invited by the Saudi government to protect them from a saddamite invasion, thus no clear clarion call from bin Laden to expel the infidel. Then again it might not have made any difference either. Psychopaths always manage to find something.
I'd ask you some questions but I'm not interested in your answers.
--------------------
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: looner2]
#4812408 - 10/16/05 07:25 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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a constitution alowing for the making and execution of legislative and judicial process, you really don't see how that would move a country in the direction of safety? Constitution providing ethical guidelines for the dispensation of fedutiary rescources, you don't seethe benefits of said constitution. A document voted for by the people allowing for the policing of state, you fail to see how that would make a country safer? A standing army wouldn't make a country safer. the right to vote and elect officials, you don't see how that could stymie tyranny? Come on use your God given brain..
-------------------- Asshole
Edited by nakors_junk_bag (10/16/05 07:26 PM)
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: zappaisgod]
#4812428 - 10/16/05 07:29 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Your First Point
1: So it is impossible for countries without a constitution to maintain an army?
2. How did that prevent 9/11 from happening? (Hint: it didn't!)
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#4812434 - 10/16/05 07:30 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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How could a constitution providing these things in a nation known for terroritst support not be a victory for anti terrorists? When people are provided with something to lose they will fight hard to keep it. We give these people a free and democratice society and see ho readily they aloow for the harboring and support of people who would tear that liberty apart.
-------------------- Asshole
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: kilgore_trout]
#4812455 - 10/16/05 07:33 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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he said terrorism, not (iraqi) insurgency.
Basic reading comprehension is not a strong point of many war advocates.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque
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Posts: 2,415
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#4812471 - 10/16/05 07:35 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yea, it didn't. No it is not impossible for a country to maintain a standing army without one. This will simply protect the populace from an army that is countrolled exclusively by the government. An army that is dictated to by the people and their elected officials. They will no longer be terrorized by the baathist regiment.
How many more terrorist attacks would we the american people have suffered without a consitution allowing for investigation and judicial intervention. How many times have our police and fbi and such stopped an attack? They were giving their rights and proceedures by the consitutional process called legislation!
-------------------- Asshole
Edited by nakors_junk_bag (10/16/05 07:38 PM)
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#4812480 - 10/16/05 07:37 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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I am not alking about insurgency!!!
hey I shouldn't have said those things to you last nite. they were mean and incendiary and you handled yourself well in abstaing from retaliation.
-------------------- Asshole
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HagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Swami]
#4812495 - 10/16/05 07:39 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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How does "a victory for opponents of terrorism" come out in your mind as halting terrorism?
That is irrational enough but then you follow it up with three ridiculous questions.
You also failed to ever comment again about the disclosure of prisoner abuse again. I guess the preponderance of evidence disproving your allegations was enough to change your mind. It would just be nice if you said something to let us know it though.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Swami]
#4812511 - 10/16/05 07:41 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
President Bush hailed the vote as a victory for opponents of terrorism.
How can you even contest this fact? The better off the citizens of Iraq are, the sooner we can get out, the sooner the insurgents and terrorists will stop (or at least slow) their attacks.
If you actually want to pull out of Iraq, you would be happy about the constitution.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Redstorm]
#4812539 - 10/16/05 07:46 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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How can you even contest this fact?
Um, because we were NOT attacked by Iraqis.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque
Registered: 11/23/04
Posts: 2,415
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Swami]
#4812548 - 10/16/05 07:48 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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is it only terror when we suffer. The deifinition of terror is the same worldwide. If we stop terror there then we have come one turn closer to stopping it elswhere!!! take away the root and the tree will rot!
-------------------- Asshole
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Swami]
#4812553 - 10/16/05 07:49 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said: Your First Point
1: So it is impossible for countries without a constitution to maintain an army?
2. How did that prevent 9/11 from happening? (Hint: it didn't!)
I answered the question you asked. Rather well I might add. This genie gave you three answers. Now you want more?
No 1. Beats me. But having a constitution keeps the nation together so that it might be stronger with a unified defense. A much more valuable commodity than 456 different tiny armies.
No 2. Back to my previous answer, it is absurd to expect perfect protection. This is the kind of thing children give up around the age of 4 or 5 when they are first let down by their parents. Some children anyway.
--------------------
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Swami]
#4812556 - 10/16/05 07:49 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Of course not. But if terrorists are attacking gov't officers in Iraq, obviously the gov't of Iraq would be the enemy of terrorism. And the voting of a constitution would be a win for the gov't.
Therefore, the enemy of terrorism had a big victory.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: HagbardCeline]
#4812564 - 10/16/05 07:51 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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How does "a victory for opponents of terrorism" come out in your mind as halting terrorism?
So a victory in your mind would be one which does nothing whatsoever to decrease terrorism? Sounds v-e-r-y promising. What school of double-speak do you attend?
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Swami]
#4812572 - 10/16/05 07:53 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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You are not getting it through your head. It will prevent terrorism.
Since you missed it before:
Quote:
The better off the citizens of Iraq are, the sooner we can get out, the sooner the insurgents and terrorists will stop (or at least slow) their attacks.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Swami]
#4812592 - 10/16/05 07:57 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said: How does "a victory for opponents of terrorism" come out in your mind as halting terrorism?
So a victory in your mind would be one which does nothing whatsoever to decrease terrorism? Sounds v-e-r-y promising. What school of double-speak do you attend?
You really have lost all logic skills and the weakness of your arguments bespeaks trolldom. Not every victory is a total victory. You do understand what halting means don't you? That would be a complete cessation. Slowing would be a victory. Halting the spread would be a victory. Killing one single supporter would be a victory. Capisce, Swamilito.
--------------------
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Redstorm]
#4812618 - 10/16/05 08:01 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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This debate seems rhetorical and fraught with clarity. The constitution by its very nature will do much in the intellectual arena which is the arena the ultimate victory in the war on terror will be found. The problem is a spiritual one and the spirit world is irrevocably an intellectual manifest. When we solve the root problem( a malicious and anti progress thought proocess which inturn breeds militant and violent spiritual outbreaks created by thousnad of years of little water and the desire to forcibly take it from the original denizens of the only arable and water rich land in the middle east) then we will solve the tangible problem. If you don't see how a written constituion is a step in the right direction then perhaps you will get caught up.
-------------------- Asshole
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: kilgore_trout]
#4812694 - 10/16/05 08:15 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
kilgore_trout said: he said terrorism, not (iraqi) insurgency.
What are you talking about? Really dig apart my post and make a point, I am not about to try and figure out what you are meaning to say. I feel your bait, but its poor and not worth a thought of mine because you haven't provided one yourself.
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Swami]
#4812699 - 10/16/05 08:16 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said: he said terrorism, not (iraqi) insurgency.
Basic reading comprehension is not a strong point of many war advocates.
FACT: Debunking homeopathy and dosing does not give solid debating skills when it comes to using reason in the real world.
-------------------- I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Redstorm]
#4812702 - 10/16/05 08:16 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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the sooner the insurgents and terrorists will stop (or at least slow) their attacks.
Not a single Iraqi 'insurgent' attacked or killed an American BEFORE we invaded, now did they?
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque
Registered: 11/23/04
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Swami]
#4812718 - 10/16/05 08:19 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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no they killed eachother, what is you point. you asked if a consitution was a viable method to deter the terrorist agenda. you have been answered. the answers are clear concise and well though out not to mention exhaustive, yet you still persist in asking inane and unsensical questions in some juvenile attempt to maintain an old and failing position. let it go. the vote was a victory pure and simple
-------------------- Asshole
Edited by nakors_junk_bag (10/16/05 08:20 PM)
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nakors_junk_bag
Lobster Bisque
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: nakors_junk_bag]
#4812735 - 10/16/05 08:22 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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the war on terror is a global interest, it just happens we head the anti terrorist movement.
-------------------- Asshole
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Posts: 44,175
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Swami]
#4812840 - 10/16/05 08:42 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said: the sooner the insurgents and terrorists will stop (or at least slow) their attacks.
Not a single Iraqi 'insurgent' attacked or killed an American BEFORE we invaded, now did they?
Nope, but they are now. I'd like to see that stopped, wouldn't you?
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HagbardCeline
Student-Teacher-Student-Teacher
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Swami]
#4813069 - 10/16/05 09:24 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Swami said: How does "a victory for opponents of terrorism" come out in your mind as halting terrorism?
So a victory in your mind would be one which does nothing whatsoever to decrease terrorism? Sounds v-e-r-y promising. What school of double-speak do you attend?
Zappaisgod already took care of this for you but I'll answer too since it was directed at me (even though you apparently don't have the ability to answer questions posed to you (it's cool though, no one likes to admit defeat)).
I know you have apparently lost the faculty of reason but try and follow me. The terrorists would like to see a theocracy established in Iraq. Those who would not like to see a theocracy established in Iraq obviously support the Constitution. These people are the opponents of the terrorists.
I know it's getting hard but keep up cause here's where it gets good.
Since the Constitution is ratified the supporters have gotten what they wanted and the terrorists didn't get what they wanted.
Sensible citizens - 1 vs Terrorist slime - 0
A victory for the reasonable! YAY!!!!
I don't think I really need to explain why halt was the wrong word to use. It's been covered already but I must say it would help debating here to have good grasp on the English language. Dictionary.com is an excellent resource if you don't understand the meaning of a word. Reminds of when I first came here and you argued with me that compiling, reading and analyzing writings about anti-gravity didn't constitute research. You were wrong there too but never admitted it even though everyone who posted in reference to that argument proclaimed you the loser.
Quote:
Swami said: he said terrorism, not (iraqi) insurgency.
Basic reading comprehension is not a strong point of many war advocates.
Apparently logic, reason, and basic comprehension of the English language isn't a strong point of many anti-war advocates.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
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Posts: 15,413
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: HagbardCeline]
#4813533 - 10/16/05 10:25 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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The terrorists would like to see a theocracy established in Iraq.
"The terrorists", some ill-defined group that you commingle with internal Iraqi faction rivalry, has no bearing on the safety of USA citizens at home.
The people behind the 9/11 terrorist bombing never mentioned ANYTHING about the style of government of Iraq in any communique at the time.
This is just another layer slathered on, and shows little understanding of the dynamics at play.
Will Al Queda recruiting slow down? Unlikely.
Will Al Queda plans for attacks on US soil be put aside? Unlikely.
-------------------- The proof is in the pudding.
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Alex213
Stranger
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: HagbardCeline]
#4814293 - 10/17/05 12:24 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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The terrorists would like to see a theocracy established in Iraq
Which "terrorists" do you mean? Anyone who disagrees with George Bush?
Does everyone who opposes foreign occupation want the same thing?
Those who would not like to see a theocracy established in Iraq obviously support the Constitution
Or they realise the consitution is currently the best route to power and will pay vague lip service to it for the time being.
And of course, with the insurgents controlling much of the police force in Southern Iraq actually enforcing the constitution is another matter entirely.
Since the Constitution is ratified the supporters have gotten what they wanted and the terrorists didn't get what they wanted
If by "terrorists" you mean an enormous section of the population of Iraq then perhaps.
A victory for the reasonable! YAY!!!!
If by "reasonable" you mean disenfranchising enormous sections of the Iraq population and furthuring the likelihood of civil war than YAY!
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Prisoner#1
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Redstorm]
#4815023 - 10/17/05 05:32 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: You are not getting it through your head. It will prevent terrorism.
please explain how it will prevent terrorism, the US constitution hasnt prevented the government from trampling all over the rights of US citizens in the last 60 years
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Prisoner#1]
#4815471 - 10/17/05 09:53 AM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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If you read my posts, you would see the logic of it. The premise is so simple that if you don't get it, you never will.
Also, we're talking about the conventional meaning of terrorism, not the intrusions on rights.
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Prosgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Redstorm]
#4815818 - 10/17/05 12:03 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Iraq wasn't big in the terrorism business until the U.S. invasion. I can see that if Iraqis perceive that they have more say in their own rule that will be less inclined to commit terrorist acts in Iraq against the powers that be and those that go along with them. Anything that increases the perception that ruled have a say in their governance does address some of the root causes of terrorism. I think any relation to terrorists acts OUTSIDE of Iraq is more tenuous. Keep in mind that the U.S. is building PERMANENT military facilities in Iraq and this will continue to be a point of contention providing grist for the terrorist mill. By their own admission, terrorists who have targeted the U.S. have done so because (in part) they perceive that their local governments are U.S. puppet regimes or are supported by the U.S. government.
-------------------- Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes. You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way. - Tom Willhite Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.
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zappaisgod
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Prosgeopax]
#4816560 - 10/17/05 03:06 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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P said "By their own admission, terrorists who have targeted the U.S. have done so because (in part) they perceive that their local governments are U.S. puppet regimes or are supported by the U.S. government. "
So who made them boss? They perceive something so they have license to kill? I don't think so. As to permanent military bases let's see Germany, S Korea, Japan. All by invitation of the duly elected by the people governments. If the invitations are rescinded we will go. Maybe the permanent military bases are for the permanent Iraqi forces. There will be some you know. Name one country where we have military bases against the wishes of the governing agent. Not the wishes of a faction, but the recognized government.
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HagbardCeline
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Swami]
#4816789 - 10/17/05 03:56 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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"The terrorists", some ill-defined group that you commingle with internal Iraqi faction rivalry, has no bearing on the safety of USA citizens at home.
I don't think Bush said the ratification of the Constitution meant a victory - for opponents of terrorism - that would shelter the US. Unless you can show it to me of course?
But never the less it does have bearing. As Al Queda, among other terrorist factions, has commited tremendous resources to the battle in Iraq. More resources spent there means less to spend on blowing up the closest Starbucks to Capitol Hill. Actually, depending on many politicians were present at the time that might not be such a bad idea.
The people behind the 9/11 terrorist bombing never mentioned ANYTHING about the style of government of Iraq in any communique at the time.
And?
I think I'm gonna start calling you Rudy.
-------------------- I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine
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Prosgeopax
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: zappaisgod]
#4817172 - 10/17/05 05:29 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: P said "By their own admission, terrorists who have targeted the U.S. have done so because (in part) they perceive that their local governments are U.S. puppet regimes or are supported by the U.S. government. "
So who made them boss?
That's not the point, check the topic of this thread.
Quote:
As to permanent military bases let's see Germany, S Korea, Japan. All by invitation of the duly elected by the people governments.
The U.S. was not invited into Iraq and started construction of permanent military bases BEFORE Iraq's constitution was written (which was written UNDER U.S. military control), BEFORE a duly elected representative government of Iraq has been installed under the terms of their constitution.
Quote:
Name one country where we have military bases against the wishes of the governing agent. Not the wishes of a faction, but the recognized government.
*** Sigh *** The 'governing agent' is many times a faction, brought to power with the support of U.S. government intelligence, military and tax dollars. These factions oppress their own people to maintain power, the people recognize the support of the U.S. for their oppressors and come to view their own governments as corrupt puppets of the U.S. and view the U.S. as an enemy as well. THAT IS THE POINT.
-------------------- Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes. You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way. - Tom Willhite Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.
Edited by Prosgeopax (10/17/05 06:16 PM)
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Prosgeopax]
#4817178 - 10/17/05 05:31 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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I don't disagree with you. The way I look at it, though, is that the sooner they have a working constitution, the sooner the country is stable, the sooner we can leave, the sooner they will stop blowing things up.
Perhaps I'm too optimistic?
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Prosgeopax
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Redstorm]
#4817208 - 10/17/05 05:38 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: The way I look at it, though, is that the sooner they have a working constitution, the sooner the country is stable, the sooner we can leave, the sooner they will stop blowing things up.
I agree. What is yet to be seen is whether or not the average Iraqi will look upon their new government as legitimate. This is crucial to stability. If a large enough faction or factions view the new government as being a puppet of the U.S. or unable to stay in power without the U.S., this does not bode well for stability. (or the U.S. taxpayers or U.S. military personnel)
-------------------- Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes. You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way. - Tom Willhite Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Prosgeopax]
#4817216 - 10/17/05 05:40 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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I just hope the Iraqis will accept this constitution as their own. It will be amazing if this ends up working.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: Prosgeopax]
#4817440 - 10/17/05 06:25 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Prosgeopax said:
Quote:
zappaisgod said: P said "By their own admission, terrorists who have targeted the U.S. have done so because (in part) they perceive that their local governments are U.S. puppet regimes or are supported by the U.S. government. "
So who made them boss?
That's not the point. Check the topic of this thread, think instead of emoting.
No, it is exactly the point. Who said these fuckwads decide what or who should be there? You? Markos Maloutsis? Mumia? Please.
Quote:
As to permanent military bases let's see Germany, S Korea, Japan. All by invitation of the duly elected by the people governments.
The U.S. was not invited into Iraq and started construction of permanent military bases BEFORE Iraq's constitution was written (which was written UNDER U.S. military control), BEFORE a duly elected representative government of Iraq has been installed under the terms of their constitution.
They weren't initially invited into those nations either. They were invited to stay though. Oh yes, very much so. By those democracies. Seeking protection and forsaking their own ambitions. You really are completely clueless.
Quote:
Name one country where we have military bases against the wishes of the governing agent. Not the wishes of a faction, but the recognized government.
*** Sigh *** The 'governing agent' is many times a faction, brought to power with the support of U.S. government intelligence, military and tax dollars. These factions oppress their own people to maintain power, the people recognize the support of the U.S. for their oppressors and come to view their own governments as corrupt puppets of the U.S. and view the U.S. as an enemy as well. THAT IS THE POINT.
Corrupt puppets like Germany Japan and S Korea. Good job naming one. You really are a fine test taker.
Utterly devoid of reason or knowledge. F-
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Prosgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?
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Re: Iraqi Constitution ratification halts terrorism? [Re: zappaisgod]
#4817611 - 10/17/05 07:10 PM (18 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said: No, it is exactly the point.
You were responding to my comments, it is NOT the point I was making. This thread deals with the Iraqi constitution and whether it would lead to a halt to terrorism. If you would like to read my brief exchange with Redstorm, perhaps this will provide you with a clue. However, based on your past performance in comprehending I do not hold out much hope for you.
Quote:
Utterly devoid of reason or knowledge. F-
Yes you are, I'm glad that you can admit it. Now please cease responding to me so as the quicker minds do not have to wade through the display of your tortured thought processes. Thank you.
-------------------- Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes. You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way. - Tom Willhite Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.
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