Home | Community | Message Board


The Spore Depot
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
Offlineferago2
gnubie
Registered: 03/02/04
Posts: 136
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Experimental Thread!
    #2988239 - 08/10/04 10:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I was sitting in philosophy class today, thinking about how most good philosophy arguments can be reduced to the premises and a conclusion, and how much easier communication and persuasion would be in real life if people used these formula. I thought this would be a good place to toy with that idea :smile:

So, I designate this thread a mini forum, with the only guidelines that any new ideas or counter arguments posted on it should follow premises-conclusion form, which I'll explain below. In other words, if there was any thread you wanted to start on this forum, and wanted to have it debated in a coherent way, post it on here too, and use the form to explain why you believe what you believe, and people can respond and clearly explain what they think, and we'll see how it ends up different from other threads!

I'll describe the system in my next post.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineferago2
gnubie
Registered: 03/02/04
Posts: 136
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: Experimental Thread! [Re: ferago2]
    #2988276 - 08/10/04 10:19 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

So, the way this works, as you would be taught in most philosophy classes, is you list a bunch of premises, facts or ideas or observations that work towards a conclusion. The premises alone, if all true, should _prove_ the conclusion to be true. A simple version would look like this:

Premise 1: All men are mortal
Premise 2: Socrates was a man
Conclusion: Socrates was mortal

This is simple, but follows the structure and is an easy example. It makes it easy for someone to disagree and frame their disagreement too, as I'll show down here.

Premise 1: Taking a human life is murder
Premise 2: Abortion takes a human life
Conclusion: Abortion is murder.

Now, people are going to have more mixed feelings about this one, but it should still be clear how to object to it. Remember that every premise should be necessary for the conclusion, and the conclusion, provided every premise is true, should follow from the premises.

The obvious objection would be that some people don't believe premise 2 to be true, therefore making the argument unsound. People are unlikely to object to premise 1, and the conclusion is not objectionable on its own (you either object to a premise, like i just did, or you object that the premises are insufficient to prove the conclusion).

I'll start this thread in the next post with a premises/conclusion statement, and if anyone wants to start debate there, that's cool, or if you want to post your own, unrelated statement in that form, it's cool too. Let's see how this works!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibletoad857
President of theUnited States

Registered: 02/02/04
Posts: 283
Re: Experimental Thread! [Re: ferago2]
    #2988340 - 08/10/04 10:32 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

p: i like this idea.
p: ideas that i like are good.
C: this is a good idea!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineferago2
gnubie
Registered: 03/02/04
Posts: 136
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: Experimental Thread! [Re: ferago2]
    #2988398 - 08/10/04 10:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Premise 1: Knowledge comes from one of two sources: our sensory experiences, and our reasoning processes.
Premise 2: It is impossible to know something that hasn't occured without a sense experience or a process of reasoning.
Premise 3: I have found no logical reason to belief there exists any supernatural entities
Premise 4: I have never had a sense experience involving supernatural entities.
Conclusion: It is impossible for me to know if supernatural beings exist.

This make sense to everyone? This isn't supposed to be unarguable, so if you disagree, fire away!

If you have a better discussion to get into, by all means, start it, this example i just came up with right now and isn't somehting I'm especially passionate about.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflinePhilanthropist
Savior ofMankind

Registered: 06/01/04
Posts: 204
Loc: Amsterdam, Holland
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
Re: Experimental Thread! [Re: ferago2]
    #2988468 - 08/10/04 10:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Premise 1: Police abuse people for the government.
Premise 2: The Government claims to know morality.
Premise 3: Morality is not to hurt and to love.
Conclusion: Fuck the police and the government.

Ok fuck all the bs. This is what happened today. My friends are driving and there is a cop in back of him. He has a broken speedometer so he pulls over in a dead end. I say he is coming and they think i am joking. The cop finds us at the dead end and treats us like shit. Two of my friends were arrested and brought to the station for a bowl and a half gram of weed. While my friends are in the police car, me and my other friend were sitting on the road. I said the cop "Do you believe in karma" and he replied "yes". Then he goes on and says "Oh are you gonna get all philosophical on me?" I replied "What did we do wrong". He said "You had marijuana in the car." I shut my mouth. The other police officer who was a complete asshole said to me "I got 2 more pairs of cuffs if you have anything else in the car" I immediately stood up and put my hands behind my back and he wouldn't put the cuffs on me but he jumped a little when i stood up. I am very skeptical about police now and very very very frustrated and angry to a point where I want action.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineferago2
gnubie
Registered: 03/02/04
Posts: 136
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: Experimental Thread! [Re: Philanthropist]
    #2988798 - 08/11/04 12:14 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Hmm, not exactly what I had in mind, but if someone wants to respond, work with it! I want to see where this thread goes and I'm not going to try and guide it anywhere except what happens naturally.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisible2Experimental
Male User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 18,073
Re: Experimental Thread! [Re: ferago2]
    #2988962 - 08/11/04 01:04 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

P: I exist
P: You exist
C: We exist

:crazy:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineferago2
gnubie
Registered: 03/02/04
Posts: 136
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: Experimental Thread! [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2989000 - 08/11/04 01:21 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

w00t


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinecastaway
Isanybodyreallyhome?
Male User Gallery
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 553
Last seen: 11 years, 10 days
Re: Experimental Thread! [Re: Philanthropist]
    #2989738 - 08/11/04 05:33 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Premise 1: Police abuse people for the government.

Counter argument: Police need to keep their jobs to provide for themselves and their families and therefore will follow orders whether they are in agreement or not.

Premise 2: The Government claims to know morality.

Counter argument: Governments elected by citizens enforce laws created and agreed upon by the majority of citizens; the mistake therefor is that the governing body itself is liable for iresponsible acts performed by elected officials.

Premise 3: Morality is not to hurt and to love.

Counter argument: (I don't have a counter argument)

Conclusion: Fuck the police and the government.

Counter conclusion: Erroneous conclusion


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleLazerouth
Drunkard

Registered: 10/16/00
Posts: 1,091
Loc: England
Re: Experimental Thread! [Re: Philanthropist]
    #2990046 - 08/11/04 08:43 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Philanthropist said:
Premise 1: Police abuse people for the government.
Premise 2: The Government claims to know morality.
Premise 3: Morality is not to hurt and to love.
Conclusion: Fuck the police and the government.




No birds are pigs
No pigs can fly
Therefore
No birds can fly.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblezee_werp
a fractalcreature
 User Gallery

Registered: 03/25/03
Posts: 1,026
Loc: Aotearoa
Re: Experimental Thread! [Re: Lazerouth]
    #2990058 - 08/11/04 08:49 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

You mean Nobirds? Or planes? Oh crap I think I'm on the wrong track...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/06/00
Posts: 10,386
Loc: Portland, OR
Re: Experimental Thread! [Re: ferago2]
    #2990099 - 08/11/04 09:17 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

god is that which none greater can be conceived of....
oh fuck it, it's been so long since i was a student of philosophy.... *sighs* hope you recognize the phrase, though. i personally think it's a very reductionalistic way of thinking.... a good tool to keep the reasoning mind sharp, but that's it.


--------------------
Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineJacquesCousteau
Being.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 10 months, 14 days
Re: Experimental Thread! [Re: ferago2]
    #2990135 - 08/11/04 09:32 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

This concept could benefit greatly from the integration of "English Prime".. in English prime, ( http://www.rawilson.com/quantum.html ) everything is written to take into consideration perception and the lack of support for each individual premise.

Observe the changes that result from your abortion example:

In english:

Premise 1: Taking a human life is murder
Premise 2: Abortion takes a human life
Conclusion: Abortion is murder.

In english prime:

Premise 1: Taking a human life appears to stop the human's existance beyond physical form.
Premise 2: Abortion seems to take human life.
Conclusion: Abortion MAY be the equivalent to murder, but that appears to be a subjective conclusion; said conclusion holds it's basis in relative perception and relative moral opinion.

Yeah, I know, you have to read more and write more in English prime... but I think this is a prime example (no pun intended, heh) of it's useful application.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineferago2
gnubie
Registered: 03/02/04
Posts: 136
Last seen: 11 years, 1 month
Re: Experimental Thread! [Re: JacquesCousteau]
    #2990524 - 08/11/04 11:46 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

English prime is interesting, but using it in philosophy undermines the whole point of trying to prove an assertion at all.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineJacquesCousteau
Being.
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 7,825
Loc: Everywhere, Everytime.
Last seen: 10 months, 14 days
Re: Experimental Thread! [Re: ferago2]
    #2990564 - 08/11/04 11:56 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

On the contrary... using it in philosophy completely bypasses the false goal of asserting one's point, to get to the real goal: A fair balance that allows and accounts for the fact that every single person experiences reality through only their own perception.

I don't want to get too off target on your thread, so I'll just say this:

While I acknowledge that English prime doesn't make for heated debates, I think that's rather the whole idea. It allows communication of concept without ego getting involved. If one's views are not considered the only reality, then the ego does not feel the need to protect said reality by debating.

But I guess that all defeats the purpose of your thread... heh.

So carry on, I'll go back to my usual sidelines position.  :grin:

P.S. Just my 2 cents, by the way.


Edited by JacquesCousteau (08/11/04 11:57 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblefearfect
Registered: 01/15/04
Posts: 1,845
Loc: Flag
Re: Experimental Thread! [Re: ferago2]
    #2991446 - 08/11/04 04:17 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

1) if A then B
2) D
conclusion: C or !C
:crazy2:


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
Re: Experimental Thread! [Re: castaway]
    #2991697 - 08/11/04 05:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

castaway said:
Premise 1: Police abuse people for the government.

Counter argument: Police need to keep their jobs to provide for themselves and their families and therefore will follow orders whether they are in agreement or not.

Premise 2: The Government claims to know morality.

Counter argument: Governments elected by citizens enforce laws created and agreed upon by the majority of citizens; the mistake therefor is that the governing body itself is liable for iresponsible acts performed by elected officials.

Premise 3: Morality is not to hurt and to love.

Counter argument: (I don't have a counter argument)

Conclusion: Fuck the police and the government.

Counter conclusion: Erroneous conclusion




the quoting is to complicated.



P1.govts are elected by the minority of citizens(as the majority doesnt vote), those elected then vote on laws.

P2.very little legislation is voted on by citizens.

C.govts dont represent the majority of citizens they govern.


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinecastaway
Isanybodyreallyhome?
Male User Gallery
Registered: 06/10/03
Posts: 553
Last seen: 11 years, 10 days
Re: Experimental Thread! [Re: BleaK]
    #2993466 - 08/12/04 12:13 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

FUBAR !!

~ scandal ~

I love it!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineBleaK
paradox
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 1,583
Last seen: 3 years, 4 months
Re: Experimental Thread! [Re: castaway]
    #2993486 - 08/12/04 12:17 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

huh?


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleLazerouth
Drunkard

Registered: 10/16/00
Posts: 1,091
Loc: England
Re: Experimental Thread! [Re: ferago2]
    #2995947 - 08/12/04 04:13 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Aristotle is pretty fun. Have you started studying zeno yet ferago? That guy knew how to argue.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Differing subjective experiences
( 1 2 all )
OrgoneConclusion 1,897 26 02/21/08 11:24 AM
by blackegg
* take part in a prayer experiment tonight!
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
NiamhNyx 5,985 140 06/07/07 07:04 PM
by Icelander
* The CP Experience
( 1 2 all )
DiploidM 5,443 27 06/22/05 02:14 AM
by Icelander
* What is your strangest non-drug experience?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Swami 3,996 77 12/13/04 10:10 PM
by balls
* Is S&P past it's prime?
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Swami 2,540 75 06/25/05 05:55 PM
by trendal
* The Generic Religion Bashing thread
( 1 2 3 all )
OrgoneConclusion 3,253 40 06/26/08 12:29 AM
by Mr. Mushrooms
* The "God" Experience
( 1 2 3 all )
Synesthetic 3,415 57 03/29/09 04:54 PM
by Synesthetic
* Evolution of the DMT experience
( 1 2 all )
Spooge 2,215 31 05/16/04 07:57 PM
by ekomstop

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Diploid, DividedQuantum
1,545 topic views. 0 members, 3 guests and 7 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
FreeSpores.com
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.059 seconds spending 0.003 seconds on 16 queries.