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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Kloakk] * 1
    #29582230 -

I think there's always going to be a compromise between novelty and potency when it come to the drying jumbo mutant strains. They're fun to grow but they're not really fit for purpose if potency is your goal. I'd like to see that properly tested though because if research has shown that psilocybin content increases after harvest, the fruits that retain their water content the longest stay metabolically active the longest so potency increases could actually be higher in room temperature dried jumbo fruits. At least until the fruits ability to produce ATP ran out.

Hot vs air or low temperature drying of jumbo fruits would make a good citizen science experiment to try with those Psilo-Q tests.


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Edited by Dave Bennett (05/21/26 04:31 AM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29582242 -

Got it, thanks. Well, just have to see if I can't get Rev to take a look, at the moment Miraculix won't send the photometer to my country :begger:


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“All Fungi are edible.

Some fungi are only edible once.”
― Terry Pratchett


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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett] * 1
    #29582245 -

I'm curious Dave, I can tell you're clearly passionate about this aspect of cultivation, but do you have any plans to run similar experiments as Rev, or is this just a topic of debate where the only data will be the papers you posted?

If it's the first, then I'm really excited to see where it goes. If it's the 2nd, then aren't we just :beatadeadhorse: ?


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I've got skills, they don't know where to use me
I'm like the best dressed guy at the nude beach
Nice to meet you!

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29582276 -

the phrase you quoted is unfortunately a bit vague. shrooms have ATP and strong metabolic activity after harvesting, but that theoretically don't last long, that's the point. is like a desperate "last effort" to live, that shrooms have, but that don't last.

this means that ATP production could stop in the middle of dehydration, which means Psik will stop protecting psylocibin.

for what I've seen, even if what you said is true, ATP production relies on water. this means that after we reach the phase of like 50% of water in dehydration, the ATP production would take a heavy hit.

at this point mitochondria will stop producing ATP, and PSIP will be running wild for half the dehydration time. so let's put that it takes 24 hours in front of the fan. from these 24 hours, 12 hours will run without the PSIK protection, which will still be worse than heat and denaturing enzymes.

and also, the table is wrong, i don't know why are you insisting.

it is a total PSILOCIN content. and theoretically, by your own logic, the 20C dried should not be that worse than the freeze dried one, neither have that much psilocin. which only leads to one of the two choices:

or your reasoning is wrong or the chart is wrong. and even though i don't agree with your reason, the chart is truly inconsistent and unreliable.

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: PuffM4gicDr4gon]
    #29582329 -

There's no point in repeating the experiments if you respect the Scientific Method and the competence of the qualified researchers who are leading the field in cutting edge Psilocybe and psilocybin research. Low temperature drying to preserve potency has been the laboratory and forensic standard for over five decades. Every experiment and research paper that's ever been published on the subject found that heat degrades potency. The sum of the total evidence and research that found that elevated temperature drying is best for preserving potency is precisely zero.

Mycology is a science and we're kind of edging into science denier territory here. Some people believe that the Earth is flat despite all the overwhelming evidence to the contrary and nothing will convince them otherwise. Maybe it would be a good idea for a trusted member or cultivator to repeat the dehydration experiments with a Psilo-Q test, despite it's lack of accuracy compared to HPLC and Mass Spectrometry, if that's what it takes to convince any naysayers that the scientific consensus and laboratory standard on drying temperatures is correct.


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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett] * 4
    #29582339 -

Yeah, that's not the way science works. Every iteration of an experiment gives new data. Every process is checked and rechecked for accuracy. Literally the first thing the science community does when a new experiment is published is to try to recreate it and come at the problem from different ways to learn more or confirm/disprove results.

Reading a paper and doing a proverbial "mic drop" is just an exercise in ego in my opinion. That type of thinking is unscientific at it's core.

I've read enough to make up my mind:



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I've got skills, they don't know where to use me
I'm like the best dressed guy at the nude beach
Nice to meet you!

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: BeefExtreme] * 1
    #29582346 -

BeefExtreme said:
Air drying CAN work.  Not one TC will argue that it cant.  Does it preserve the alkaloid profile better?  Probably.  We dont care.



I guess I'm not gonna argue that it CAN'T work, as I've gone quite a few rounds with both desiccant drying and air-drying, and eaten even more fruits that were air-driedd by someone else.

But I will definitely push back on the idea of it preserving the alkaloid profile better. Based mainly on the definition of "preserve." Preservation introduces the element of time. What's the best way to "preserve" all the alkaloids? Eat fresh-picked fruits. Next best? Probably a tea made with fresh-picked fruits and then frozen. I can't accept air-drying as better than heated dehydration for the simple reason that it takes longer for the moisture to exit the fruit, and the presence of moisture means degradation. I personally have never eaten or prepared an air-dried fruit that achieved zero moisture. Yes, there are climatic conditions to consider, but at one point, I had a large dehydrator and multiple box fans running in a small enclosed space, with fruits laid out on weed-drying contraptions. I feel like I probably replicated desert winds pretty well with that setup. Still, though, those fruits were never fully dried down. They were all gone within a few months, though, so whatever.

Is it possible that, within a certain set of parameters, air-drying fruits and then eating them within a relatively short window provides more alkaloids and a better representation of the original profile? Maybe. But you kinda have to cherry-pick your parameters to get to that conclusion.

Side note: Beef is my homey and we agree on like 99% of everything, but this post is also meant to model what scientific/technical disagreement can look like when people are on the same page but still trying to hash things out fully.


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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: WhiteDemon] * 2
    #29582349 -

WhiteDemon said:
Wow, how interesting!
If I live in a dry climate, could I use a fan to dry them to 90% and then finish drying them with a dehydrator, to achieve better results in terms of potency and preservation of active compounds than using only a dehydrator?


I don't see how that's any different. You're still heating them up in the dehydrator.

Honestly, I think your best bet is to just throw them in the dehydrator and benefit from the fact that they'll dry down faster due to your dry climate.

In my experience, this is really just not worth worrying about, and taking longer to dry fruits down just creates more problems than it solves.

Like I said before: if you're really worried about gettin the full profile, just pick your fruits and eat them fresh.

Signed,

Someone who's eaten fruits processed in every conceivable way.


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Edited by B Traven (05/21/26 08:28 AM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: PuffM4gicDr4gon]
    #29582375 -

That's exactly how science works. Albert Hofmann discovered that the alkaloids were unstable at elevated temperatures in the first paper to be published about psilocybin in 1958 and for nearly seventy years the experiments have been repeated and gave exactly the same results right up the latest paper to be published just over a week ago.

Instability is literally hard wired into the structure of the psilocybin and psilocin molecules. If they weren't inherently unstable the blueing reaction wouldn't work and the alkaloids wouldn't be active. Granted, psilocybin is more stable than psilocin but the psilocin molecule is so unstable that even light falling on to it makes it degrade. Instability at elevated temperatures is a intrinsic chemical property of the alkaloids. It's set in stone. You might as well be trying to argue that water doesn't boil at 100C at 1atm.


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Edited by Dave Bennett (05/21/26 09:49 AM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: B Traven] * 1
    #29582378 -

I want to add that there are a couple things that you've suggested that do seem interesting to me and I plan to try myself.

1. Ascorbic acid - this is only anecdotal evidence but the second strongest mushroom trip and the first one ever that humbled me was made with Ascorbic acid. It was my first large dose of ochra so I assumed that was the cause. I don't really like the taste of ascorbic acid and prefer Citric so that's usually what I use

2. Making tea with fresh mushrooms at 40c

I should have some fresh pans and ochras in a couple weeks. I'll try one of them then and post results.  Hopefully I'll have something of value to contribute to the community


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I've got skills, they don't know where to use me
I'm like the best dressed guy at the nude beach
Nice to meet you!

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: PuffM4gicDr4gon] * 1
    #29582383 -

You don't have to make tea at lower temperatures as long as you add the fruits (fresh or dried) to water that's been allowed to rapidly boil first to remove all the dissolved oxygen. The blueing reaction can only occur if there's free oxygen for the second blueing enzyme, PsiL to turn psilocin into its inactive oligomers. No free oxygen, no enzymatic degradation. The enzymes are also denatured at temperatures over 50C so you knock the blueing enzymes out of action when they hit boiling water. That's why you never see mushroom tea made with boiled or boiling  water turn blue.

De-oxygenated water also stops the blueing reaction in cold water extractions if you let rapidly boiled water cool in an oxygen free environment, ie. a heat proof vessel filled to the brim and stoppered and allowed to cool. You can see what I mean here.



Cold water straight from the tap on the left, cooled de-oxygeneated water on the right.

And this experiment demonstrates the effect that weak acids have on increasing the stability of the alkaloids in solution and how Vitamin C prevents the alkaloids degrading.



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Edited by Dave Bennett (05/21/26 10:05 AM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29582399 -

Like I said it does seem interesting. It seems like you have a lot of empirical knowledge on the subject, what needs to happen is a series of experiments to develop techniques that can be described simply for a Tek.

I think that's what beef was getting to, we suggest a dehydrator because it works every time. It might not be the best but it is the most reliable.

Still, I think small scale experiments like the ones in your previous post are important.

I like tripping balls. Finding out a more reliable way to do that interests me lol

I'm not the best at recording empirical data, but I do have a tolerance that's high AF and I take similar sized doses on a semi-regular schedule. If there's a major difference in tea potency, I'll notice it and let ya'll know


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I've got skills, they don't know where to use me
I'm like the best dressed guy at the nude beach
Nice to meet you!

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29582433 -

being the "standard" don't mean to be the best, and i already said that. they could simply do because is easy to do, easy to track and reliable.

heat degrading psylocibin is not the same as heat DESTROYING psylocibin. in extractions, psylocibin has a melting point of 220C. in shrooms, it has a melting point of 150C.

using a dehydrator heat, that goes to 70C most of the time, is HALF the temperature necessary for melting point.

enzymatic reaction also had been proved that destroy psylocibin, or that at least turn psylocibin into psilocin that is highly unstable but that part you simply ignore.

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Chiron098]
    #29582477 -

That's a red herring that's often thrown into the drying debate. Melting points have nothing to do with degradation temperatures. A melting point just marks a phase transition in the physical state of a substance from solid to liquid. Does water degrade when ice melts? Of course it doesn't. 

Alkaloid degradation is a chemical change in a compound which produces new substances and many organic compounds like psilocybin decompose and degrade well before their melting point. As mentioned in the paper you cited and shown in the chart from the same paper that you now refuse to believe.

""Degradation of tryptamines was observed at 25C, 50C, 75C, 100C, 125C, and 150C for 30 min according to the procedure attached in the supporting information."


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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29582517 -

new data to debunk your reason that psik re-phosphorylate psilocin during dehydration process:

"Energy status regulated umami compound metabolism in harvested shiitake mushrooms (Lentinus edodes) with spores triggered to release"



ATP had decreased 73% in 12 hours in shitake mushrooms. psylocibe cubensis and shitake mushrooms share mechanisms for ATP production.

this would be even worse on cubensis, as you will dehydrate the shroom. ATP needs water to be produces. is probable that in these 12 hours, more than these 73% would probably be depleted.

this means that your psik theory is actually flawed and don't work.

and again, like i said, heating degrade psylocibin. but enzymes is worse. there is no easy dehydration method that could be done with 0% degradation. freeze drying is the only one.

and you are right about the melting point, but on dried shroom you don't want to pass from 150C for several reason. the most important one is that there's no practical reason to do that. at 100C is even understandable, but 150C you are just inviting the 80% loss that Gotvaldova 2020 shows in the chart.

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29582521 -

Dave Bennett said:
You don't have to make tea at lower temperatures as long as you add the fruits (fresh or dried) to water that's been allowed to rapidly boil first to remove all the dissolved oxygen. The blueing reaction can only occur if there's free oxygen for the second blueing enzyme, PsiL to turn psilocin into its inactive oligomers. No free oxygen, no enzymatic degradation. The enzymes are also denatured at temperatures over 50C so you knock the blueing enzymes out of action when they hit boiling water. That's why you never see mushroom tea made with boiled or boiling  water turn blue.

De-oxygenated water also stops the blueing reaction in cold water extractions if you let rapidly boiled water cool in an oxygen free environment, ie. a heat proof vessel filled to the brim and stoppered and allowed to cool. You can see what I mean here.



Cold water straight from the tap on the left, cooled de-oxygeneated water on the right.

And this experiment demonstrates the effect that weak acids have on increasing the stability of the alkaloids in solution and how Vitamin C prevents the alkaloids degrading.




Wait, so let the tea water come to a rapid boil first and then add the fruits?
Interesting. Guess I’ve been doing it wrong haha.
At least though the only time I’ve ever had blue tea it was from fruits put in water, frozen, then thawed and boiled.
Which was a fucking letdown haha


What temp is the consensus to dehydrate?


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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Chiron098]
    #29582546 -

Enzyme activity is increased by temperature too. So drying at elevated temperatures will increase any enzymatic degradation that occurs. In practice, enzymatic degradation isn't something to worry about during the drying process because it can only occur if the fruits are damaged. If enzymes were degrading potency during the drying process the fruits would turn blue.


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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Soloist]
    #29582558 -

Quote:
Soloist said:Wait, so let the tea water come to a rapid boil first and then add the fruits?

What temp is the consensus to dehydrate?


Yes, if water is de-oxygenated by rapid boiling the blueing reaction can't happen and potency is protected from enzymatic degradation during the tea making (or with cooled de-oxygenated water) cold water extraction process.

The fact that oxygen is needed for the blueing reaction to occur is in the literature but as no one uses water for laboratory extractions no one had put two and two together until I stumbled across the information and realised that the blueing reaction could easily be halted with no more equipment than you'd use for tea making or cold water extractions at home.

The research into drying temperatures recommends drying below 40C (104F) but the lower the drying temperature the more potent the dried fruits.


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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29582560 -

not if you actually get to a point of denaturing the enzyme.

enzymatic degradation occurs at the own process of dehydration, of removing water, by plasmolysis.

thus it means, any kind of dehydration via air flow has this problem.

if psik enzyme actually worked, this would not be a problem, but like i said, ATP is 73% lost in 12 hours, and the own process of losing water also interrupts ATP production.

this means is a NECESSITY to use high temperatures if you want to preserve a high amount of psylocibin, and not let psip transform it into psilocin, that is highly unstable, and can degrade at every point in storage.

as i also said, heat degrade less than enzyme. heat degradation is a matter of minutes to hours, meanwhile enzyme degradation is a matter of seconds.

the phrase you said "if enzymes was responsible the shroom would turn blue" is totally FALSE. the shroom turn blue when psilocin, that is inside the cell, touches PSIL that is a EXTRACELULAR ENZYME. that is what causes the blue color. during dehydration, only psip will touch psylocibin, turning it into the unstable psilocin, that will probably be lost in storage, and is not reliable to use.

Edited by Chiron098 (05/21/26 02:08 PM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Chiron098]
    #29582565 -

Which bit of "enzymatic degradation cannot occur in undamaged fruits during the drying process" are you struggling with?


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