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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29576257 -

it can increase in a linear fashion, but is barely any loss until 125C where has like a 25% loss and 150C where happens a 80% loss. we see on the first chart that has like a 10% degradation in 75C, meanwhile in the second chart it has more than 80% degradation in 60C in comparison to 25C. you should say which paper is that so i could analyse it better, as the two say different things.

the methods of analysis matter, not just the results itself. scientists can also screw up and make poor analysis using poor methods of analysis.

Edited by Chiron098 (05/14/26 09:06 AM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Chiron098] * 1
    #29576266 -

Didn't read everything in this thread, so apologies for any redundancies, but:

1. My overall understanding is that the stuff degraded by heat will also be degraded by low temperature oxidation anyhow, so it's all pretty much a wash once you're looking to dry and store fruits. Regardless, my personal experience is that fresh fruits are indeed a good bit stronge per unit weight, but not to such an extreme degree that I'm inclined to geek out over it. When it comes to the bigger question of preservation in storage, what's most important to me is that I eliminate all moisture. I've frankly never seen room temperature dried fruits that I would consider to be fully dried down. Whereas I just pulled out a jar of fruits that were a year and a half old and as good as the day I packed them. I honestly don't give a shit if I lost 5 to 10 percent of my potency because I didn't put them on a silk pillow in a dark room with a gently swaying ostrich feather for airflow. I genuinely don't believe that it makes any difference, but even if it did, I honestly wouldn't care. Full dry-down before storage is most important to me. If I want more actives, I'll either eat fresh fruits or grow stronger cultures.

2. What is it with this air fryer thing? I just a got a bag of veggie fries from the hippie grocery store last week that had airfryer instructions on it. Following the instructions for a conventional oven led to lackluster results. My conclusion is that the product was developed and marketed for people with airfryers. I dunno. Between the fancy hipster Japanese toaster oven, my wife's collection of coffee paraphernalia, my separate collection of coffee paraphernalia, the fancy blender, the Berkey water filter, and the new diatomaceous earth uber quick-drying dish rack we just got, there's just not much room left over in our inner city kitchen for an airfryer. At least not if I ever want to pour agar or chocolates again. Or use both instant pots at the same time.So, yeah, there's the main thing right there. I don't recommend airfryers, or use them to dry mushrooms, because I don't have one and have never used one. Dehydrators are cheap and purpose-built for the task at hand. In a similar fashion, while I love using an Instant Pot for sterilizing agar plates and very small grain masters, I probably wouldn't tell someone to go spend money on an instant pot just for that. It only makes sense if you're also gonna use it for cooking food.


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Edited by B Traven (05/14/26 09:16 AM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29576325 -

Dave Bennett said:
Clearly there are some nuances when it comes to drying whole fruits in a dehydrator. The skin of the mushroom forms an impenetrable barrier to oxygen while it retains its integrity, the alkaloids are likely stored in vacuoles where no free oxygen is present to trigger enzymatic degradation, PsiK has a repair function that protects psilocin from degrading, the alkaloids become more stable as they dry etc. but that doesn't change the fact that elevated temperatures result in faster degradation of the alkaloids whether they're in solution or a solid in dried fruits.

The 3 to 4% figure is dephosphorylation to psilocin, not degradation of psilocin into its inactive oligomers but we know psilocin is highly reactive and degrades quickly in the presence of water, oxygen and light. And to bring this back to the subject, it also degrades faster at elevated temperatures.

To address your point, overall potency loss gets less for every hour of drying.

Start with 100%

After hour 1: lose 4% of 100% → 96% remains

After hour 2: lose 4% of 96% (= 3.84%) → 92.16% remains

After hour 3: lose 4% of 92.16% (= 3.6864%) → 88.47% remains

After hour 4: lose 4% of 88.47% → 84.93% remains, etc.

So a ten hour drying time would result in 66.48% of your starting psilocybin content remaining and a potency loss of 33.25%

So that's the chemical equivalent of throwing a third of your harvest away.


I agree with the math and the science in the papers, I just don't see how this is of any help for what we do at home. With the need of a homogenous starting point, I don't even see how one would be able to measure if it is better to dry fast at 70°C(highest setting on my dehydrator) or slow at 35°C(lowest setting), but hey I eat crayons so that might be the bigger issue :lol:

What I do know is that increased surface area is killing potency a lot faster, thanks for the conversation though, I enjoyed it :hatsoff:


--------------------
“All Fungi are edible.

Some fungi are only edible once.”
― Terry Pratchett


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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Chiron098]
    #29576344 -

Chiron098 said:
it can increase in a linear fashion, but is barely any loss until 125C where has like a 25% loss and 150C where happens a 80% loss. we see on the first chart that has like a 10% degradation in 75C, meanwhile in the second chart it has more than 80% degradation in 60C in comparison to 25C. you should say which paper is that so i could analyse it better, as the two say different things.



The thing you keep missing about that chart is that it shows the loss of potency in just 30 minutes at those temperatures and we are talking about exposing the fruits to elevated temperatures during drying times of 10+ hours.

The 60C paper I mentioned is this one from the list I posted up thread.

Forensic analysis of hallucinogenic mushrooms and khat (Catha edulisForsk) using cation-exchange liquid chromatography

"Drying at room temperature or extraction of fresh fungi obviously led to partial decomposition of the alkaloids so that only about half of the total calculated psilocin content was recovered. Partially, psilocybin seems to be dephosphorylated to psilocin during the procedure. Drying at elevated temperature (60C) is not recommendable since 90% of total calculated psilocin content is decomposed."



The experiment was accidentally repeated by someone in the Shroomery FB group a few years ago when they or their partner closed their oven door while they were drying a fruit at 60C.

Can you guess which one it was?



And regarding your statement about mushroom skin not being a barrier to oxygen which protects the alkaloids from degradation, what do you notice here?



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Edited by Dave Bennett (05/14/26 11:16 AM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett] * 1
    #29576374 -

Dave Bennett said:
CoolBreeze06 said:
Lots of testing by folks over the years here. Oxidation is what kills potency, not heat from a dehydrator. Dehydrator heat may cause slight loss. Oxidation by drying low and slow runs a higher risk.


Oxidation isn't what kills potency during the drying process. There's no oxygen for the alkaloids to react with inside the internal tissues of the fruits while the skin maintains its integrity.

Hydrolysis (reacting with water) is what kills potency during the drying process and hydrolysis increases with temperature. Which is why elevated temperatures cause the alkaloids to degrade faster.


Fair, that’s a distinction worth making. It still holds true that the faster you remove the water, the better off you are. Running at 165 cuts my dry times by a factor of 2x to 3x. If you can explain how that is bad, I’d genuinely love to know.

But at 165*F, you’re chasing a few % loss.

For 99% of people out there, it’s statistically irrelevant when you consider how much potency can vary between fruit bodies in the same flush or separate flushes.

You’d be doing a lot of testing to confirm this.

Look at ReverendMyc’s testing when it comes to heat and water, and his extensive objective measurements. The potency loss is minimal, even when powdered, exposed to air, over long periods of time.

ETA: there is a difference in action when running an oven without air movement and hot air passing through the fruits. I’ve never burnt a shroom in my dehydrator.

The math may math, but the point is, in practical terms, how much are people actually losing? Legit question.

Edited by CoolBreeze06 (05/14/26 11:48 AM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: CoolBreeze06]
    #29576388 -

We've agreed that oxidisation isn't a problem while the outer skin of the fruits retains its integrity as a barrier to atmospheric oxygen. So the first problem with elevated temperature drying is that the outer skin dries first allowing oxygen to penetrate into the internal tissues of the fruits where the alkaloids are stored. In low temperature dried fruits the integrity of the outer skin is maintained long into the drying process because fruits will naturally translocate water to maintain the integrity of the outer skin during periods of dry weather and low humidity.

So with oxygen and enzymatic degradation out of the picture, the main driver of potency loss during the drying process is via hydrolysis ie. psilocybin reacting with water. And we know like all chemical reactions hydrolysis and the reactiveness of the alkaloids increases with temperature. We also know that living, fresh and freeze dried fruits have higher amounts of psilocybin than dried fruits because it degrades during the drying process. And we can see that happening in the charts from two different research papers that have been posted that both show that the higher the temperature the fruits are exposed to the faster potency degrades.

As to your how much potency is lost during elevated temperature drying question we can extrapolate to get a rough idea from the results of the papers. One paper found that as a solid in powdered dried fungal material around 10% of the alkaloid content degraded in 30 minutes when exposed to temperatures of 75C. The other found that in solution at 70C, 3 to 4% of the psilocybin content degraded into psilocin per hour. So using the lower figure of 4% per hour to be conservative the maths goes like this.

Start with 100%

After hour 1: lose 4% of 100% → 96% remains

After hour 2: lose 4% of 96% (= 3.84%) → 92.16% remains

After hour 3: lose 4% of 92.16% (= 3.6864%) → 88.47% remains

After hour 4: lose 4% of 88.47% → 84.93% remains, etc.

So a ten hour drying time at 70C would result in only 66.48% of your starting psilocybin content remaining and a potency loss of 33.25%

As I've pointed out in a previous post that's the chemical equivalent of throwing a third of your harvest away.

I've pointed out that the Rev's findings conflict with the published research and fleshed out some the more subtle nuances involved in the drying process in the Rev's thread if you want more detail.


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Edited by Dave Bennett (05/14/26 12:26 PM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett] * 1
    #29576403 -

"The thing you keep missing about that chart is that it shows the loss of potency in just 30 minutes at those temperatures and we are talking about exposing the fruits to elevated temperatures during drying times of 10+ hours."

the whole point here is that with increased temperature you won't be dehydrating for 10+ hours, but for WAY LESS TIME.

if you dehydrate the shrooms at 100C(212F)how much time do you think it will take? at 100C water will become steam, and the fast air flow will make the shroom go to fresh from cracker dry in probably 30 minutes.


you only think that needs 10 hours because you always dried at lower temps.

"The experiment was accidentally repeated by someone in the Shroomery FB group a few years ago when they or their partner closed their oven door while they were drying a fruit at 60C."

this only show how the shroom was cooked, as there's no air flow, thus not dehydrating. it was probably higher temps and the guy forget to check for a long time. of course it will burn, the guy is putting in the oven and baking it like chicken.

"And regarding your statement about mushroom skin not being a barrier to oxygen which protects the alkaloids from degradation, what do you notice here?"

this only shows how a trauma in a shroom works, not that the skin is a "oxygen armor".

you are saying that the interior are a "sponge" and the skin is a "armor" even though, if you cut then in half longitudinal, you will see they becoming blue. this means that they are NOT BLUE before.

the blue bruise happens when trauma on the shroom exists, no trauma, no blue. the skin are harder to have a trauma because is generally harder, thus easier to cut(doesn't crush and can maintain integrity), meanwhile the center is softer, thus the knife doesn't cut, it smashes the inside of the shroom, creating more trauma, and thus more blue.

this is easily explained as you probably know that shrooms are aerobic. if the skin was truly air proof, how would shrooms breathe?

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: B Traven] * 2
    #29576407 -

B Traven said:
2. What is it with this air fryer thing?


Wouldn't say I couldn't live without one now, but it's an absolute game changer for dino nuggies and mozzarella sticks. :lol:

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Chiron098]
    #29576509 -

I picked 10 hours because it was an easy calculation for everyone to follow. People regularly leave their fruits in the dehydrator for longer than that at elevated temperatures.

If you're correct that 60C fruit should still be highly potent but does it look potent to you? That's blueing and blacking caused by the alkaloid degradation from being exposed to 60C temperatures not charring from being roasted.

Mushroom skin forms a barrier to oxygen and water in all fungi species. It's how they protect their internal tissues from oxidisation and desiccation. What you should have noticed in that pic was that the layer of skin formed a barrier to oxygen, the alkaloids are stored beneath the skin to prevent them from degrading and the tissues only blue when they're injured or cut open and exposed to oxygen.

The blueing reaction is an injury triggered reaction because the enzymatic blueing reaction needs oxygen to degrade psilocin into its inactive oligomers that form the blue pigments. You can see that here under PsiL.



Causing a physical injury, which can be breaking the skin or crushing the hyphae, causes atmospheric oxygen to enter the internal tissues and react with the alkaloids and degradation enzymes which triggers the blueing reaction. If the skin is intact and uninjured there's no oxygen for the laccase step of the blueing reaction to occur. Which is why enzymatic degradation isn't a problem during the drying process.

Mushroom skin forms a barrier to external oxygen but it's not airtight so the fruits respire through passive diffusion and most of the gas exchange occurs through the gill surfaces. The majority of their water content evaporates from the gills during the drying process too. Most of the respiration and gas exchange occurs in the mycelium though rather than the fruits.

Some source material about the properties and functions of the pilepelis here.
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-88148-0


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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29576585 -

you can say 10 hours, but is not a realistic and practical time for higher temps.

the guy you said that let in the oven at 60C definitely screw up, people do that all the time with dehydrators, without that blacking, don't know why you are still insisting in this argument.

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/28319246/fpart/all

dehydration guide that the guy says to use 160F(71C) for 24 hours, and tons of trusted cultivators saying that is good. if the people tested and said it had turn black like the image you said, the post would probably be deleted or heavily criticized.

60C is a normal temperature for dehydration.

now about the porosity of the shroom:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33888795/

"The permeability of intact fungal fruit body skins (pileipelles) with respect to water and oxygen was determined for the first time"

"Oxygen permeability was much lower and ranged from 0.8 to 6.0 × 10-6 ms-1"

this means oxygen is constantly going through the skin of the shroom.

Edited by Chiron098 (05/14/26 04:58 PM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Chiron098]
    #29576911 -

The guy who wrote the dehydration guide got it completely wrong. He clearly hasn't done any research and where's the research and evidence to support what he's saying? He's just parroting other people's opinions on how to dry mushrooms he's read online.

And talking of research and evidence did you find any peer reviewed scientific research that supports what you're saying?


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Edited by Dave Bennett (05/15/26 02:54 AM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett] * 1
    #29577298 -

the point is, you said that some guy on FB had let their shrooms in the oven at 60C for 24 hours, and when he take out it was black. if this guide was so trash, then why people dehydrate shrooms at this temperature and time? this is a standard temperature and time to dehydrate shrooms, you can ask several trusted cultivators here. if always had got out of the dehydrator black, no one would be dehydrating this way anymore, right?

the paper that said about the skin permeability to oxygen is above.

And i couldn't find your paper at all.

your paper is also worth nothing, as the freeze dried has 3x more psylocibyn and basically the same amount of psilocin as the fresh shroom. this doesn't make any sense, the data is totally screw up, which means the methods are trash.

this paper probably is some old paper, with poor methods, where the guy dehydrated the shroom in a bad dehydrator and cooked the shroom, like the FB guy you showed the example.

don't always blindly trust any paper, there's studies where the scientists are super dumb, not only with shrooms, but overall.

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Chiron098] * 2
    #29577628 -

Real dehydrator, 165F, 24 hours, directly into jars that have a tight seal. 

:bongload:


--------------------
🅃🄴🄰🄼 🄸🄷🄾🄿


New to cultivation or the shroomery?  Observe the hitchhiker's guide

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Shroomery



Smellyhobbit said:
"Wiping a needle with isopropyl after flame sterilization is like shitting after you wipe your ass."

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Mr Piggy]
    #29577643 -

Why air fryer don't work? Air fryer is like a more potent dehydrator.

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Chiron098] * 2
    #29577646 -

No it's not.  It's a tiny convection oven.

But hey, they're your shrooms.  You can ruin them however you like.


--------------------
🅃🄴🄰🄼 🄸🄷🄾🄿


New to cultivation or the shroomery?  Observe the hitchhiker's guide

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Shroomery



Smellyhobbit said:
"Wiping a needle with isopropyl after flame sterilization is like shitting after you wipe your ass."

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Mr Piggy]
    #29577722 -

lol. I'm asking it genuinely, not joking or trolling.

the way i see it the mechanisms are the same. high airflow with hot air. why is it worse? can you explain it?

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Chiron098] * 2
    #29577859 -

Convection ovens recirculate air in a small closed area, dehydrators are designed to have a continuous high volume flow of air going through them.  One is designed to cook, the other is designed to dry.


--------------------
🅃🄴🄰🄼 🄸🄷🄾🄿


New to cultivation or the shroomery?  Observe the hitchhiker's guide

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Shroomery



Smellyhobbit said:
"Wiping a needle with isopropyl after flame sterilization is like shitting after you wipe your ass."

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Chiron098]
    #29577931 -

You couldn't find any research that states that elevated temperature drying is best for preserving potency because every research paper that's ever been published on the subject over the last fifty years proved that heat degrades potency.

Who do you think is likely to be correct? Bros on the internet's best guesses or the world's most eminent Psilocybe and psilocybin scientists and mycologists and five decades of research using state of the art analytical laboratory equipment?

It's not some arcane mycological secret. Anyone can google or ask an AI "What is the optimum temperature to dry psilocybin mushrooms to maintain potency according to the published research" and get the correct answer.


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Edited by Dave Bennett (05/16/26 03:21 AM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett]
    #29578005 -

Just love how a newcomer to the forum likes to tell all the old timers they doing it wrong. Dude has 15 posts and they all in this thread and claiming to know better than everyone here.

Starting to think he's just a troll.

Dehydrator at 165F for 24 hours is best way. PERIOD

Edited by RockinRobot (05/16/26 06:40 AM)

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Re: Why is air fryer not better than dehydrator? [Re: Dave Bennett] * 1
    #29578083 -

the research of 2021 i just sent you says that heat does not degrade potency in a significant amount until 125C. you saying that for long times it can degrade is a valid logic, but you ignore that more heat=less time dehydrating.

this means that if a person takes 12 hours dehydrating in 50C degrees, he could probably dehydrate at 100 degree celsius in 4-6 hours easily, as at 100C water evaporates and transforms easily into steam.

you also say absurd stuff like the skin of the shrooms are immune to oxygen even though shrooms are aerobic.


Edited by Chiron098 (05/16/26 09:29 AM)

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