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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Panoramix]
    #2828137 -

I don't know about you, Swami, but I still consider that to be a remarkable feat.

I considered it a remarkable feat when I dead-lifted 445 pounds @ 148 pounds bodyweight as I was born a physically weak specimen. It was through training using scientific principles. There is, however, a BIG difference between something remarkable and something that defies physical laws.

So you agree with me then that these people cannot stand on steel plate over red-hot coals? That they cannot stop their skin from absorbing excess heat and frying? That it is, in essence, a parlor trick?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Swami]
    #2828420 -

I have witnessed a friend of mine, who is a martial arts expert, break three 2x4s held together by me and I never felt his fist hit the boards they seemed to come apart in my hand. Another friend witnessed this and tried to break one 2x4 with his fist and it nearly knocked me down when he hit it, but it did not break. His hand did though. I know some of these things are tricks, but I can't explain that one.

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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Swami]
    #2828439 -

I havent heard that before, so i cant know, the reports i read talked about people doing the walk in a variety of ways though, some would dance across, others walk slowly. Also, many of the devotees who attempted this feat failed, being horribly burned or dieing, so if its a parlour trick its not an easy one. Also, in that recorded lab test incident, one of the scientists actually took the firewalkers hand and succesfully walked with him across the coals.

How did he know the technique? i guess maybe the firewalker could have been able to guide the scientists speed or steps or something but... hard to imagine.

Also, i dont quite understand the ash insulation theory, if i were to hold my foot even lets say 6 inches above glowing coals, the pain and heat would be intolerable even there. So how would it be tolerable when walking across a whole bed of these? and this is a huge bed of coals were talking about, i would think the heat would scald your legs right up to the knees. Even if i soaked my feet in water i think i would be burned after a few stepss.

Interesting story: when a christian missionary can across this pagan ritual in honour of some island god, he vowed to walk the coals himself, to prove that faith in yahweh was as powerfull as the local god. Amazingly, he succesfully walked the whole coal bed.

He was jsut so badly burned he never walked again.

Also, some of these techniques, like the monks who can raise their body temperatures, do break scientific laws. For a long time it was believed that process regulated by the autonomic nervous system, like heart rate and body temperature, could not be conciously controlled. The monks proved that wrong, and medical science had to change its rules to accomadate that.

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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2828559 -

Also, some of these techniques, like the monks who can raise their body temperatures, do break scientific laws.

then:

science had to change its rules to accomadate that.
hmmm


well, all it means to break a scientific law is that the law was wrong.

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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2828835 -

exactly mixamatosis, thats the whole point. People who are so set on saying that physical laws can never be broken dont realize that those laws are really just theories, expressing the way things are to the best of our knowledge. Than along comes some monk or something doing something that doesnt fit in the accepted parameters, and so those 'laws' are changed. It happened with the medical theory of autonomic processes and someday maybe it will happen with the physical theory of gravity, who knows?

the point is we are still learning and expanding our capabilities, and so it isnt wise to believe that we KNOW for sure what is and isnt possible, as that would effectively mean the end of all human advancement.

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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #2829071 -

Watch ANY of the martial arts championships; whether it be K1, boxing, kick-boxing, Muy-thai (sp?), UFC or whatever. These guys are ALL well-muscled and superb physical specimens (even if some heavyweights have a little excess body fat).

If it was a mental power thingie and NOT a trained coordination of explosive physical power and muscular and speed development, then the fighters bodies would have as much in common as champion dart players. Of course, we know this to not be true.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2829106 -

the reports i read
For the 500th time, the fallacy of anecote rears it's ugly head yet again. Seems impossible to kill the dreaded beast.

some would dance across, others walk
But ALL lifted their feet in semi-regular intervals to allow cooling of the soles.

so if its a parlour trick its not an easy one.
Anthony Robbins started his phenomenal climb by "teaching" tens of thousands to do this in America's backyards in a few hours time. Apparently he only taught highly-trained monks or people with pre-existing abilities to warp physical laws.  :rolleyes:

i would think the heat would scald your legs right up to the knees
No offense, but your thought process tells us nothing of what is actually transpiring. Ever listen to Magnepan speakers? Unlike cone speakers, the sound is quieter the closer you get to the source.

Also, some of these techniques, like the monks who can raise their body temperatures, do break scientific laws.
You keep going here as apparently your case for firewalking is not strong enough without dragging in a totally unrelated activity, but the Swam will play along with your meandering as he is nothing, if not a good sport.

Please state and show documentation of which of the three Laws of Thermodynamics was broken and had to be rewritten, so that I may either go back to school to update my learning and credentials or turn in my Masters in Physics.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Swami]
    #2829171 -

In truth he did not claim any supernatural power he just said he trained hard. It just SEEMED supernatural to me because the speed of the blow was such that I could not feel it. To think of myself doing such a thing is beyond my comprehension so I was impressed.

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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Swami]
    #2829754 -

?For the 500th time, the fallacy of anecote rears it's ugly head yet again. Seems impossible to kill the dreaded beast?

As I understand it, your ?fallacy of anecdotes? was when someone arbitrarily believes a second hand story without solid evidence. The reports I read were in a published book that cited its sources and named specific studies. Of course I can?t entirely discount the possibility that the author is lieing or fabricating these accounts, but the source is fairly credible, its not just an ?anecdote?

?But ALL lifted their feet in semi-regular intervals to allow cooling of the soles.?

All I know is, if I stepped on a glowing hot coal, even for a fraction of a second, my foot would be badly burned, and if I lifted my feet at semi-regular intervals that would hardly be sufficient to ?cool the soles? which would be severely blisterd and scarred. I cant discount the possibility that a technique exists that allows someone to perform this feat simply by utilizing a millimeter thick layer of ash, but I certainly don?t understand how that could be possible. (although that obviously doesn?t mean it isn?t true)

?No offense, but your thought process tells us nothing of what is actually transpiring. Ever listen to Magnepan speakers? Unlike cone speakers, the sound is quieter the closer you get to the source?

What do magnepan speakers have to do with the topic at hand? Are you equating sound with heat?

?You keep going here as apparently your case for fire walking is not strong enough without dragging in a totally unrelated activity?

well I certainly don?t claim to be ?making a case? for firewalking, I haven?t done any tests or even seen it done first hand. However, my intention was never to prove the existence of firewalking, I was just using it as an example of a phenomenal feat that, supposedly, is achieved through mental control and the power of belief. I don?t know for sure one way or another if it?s genuine, a trick, or some combination of the two.

As for dragging in a totally unrelated activity, I relate it in the sense that they are both incidences of humans doing things that are inexplicable to western science, and someone else brought it up.



?but the Swam will play along with your meandering as he is nothing, if not a good sport.?

Wanna talk about meandering? This thread is originally about the benefits of spirituality that don?t require a particular faith or belief, now were arguing about firewalking. I?m just following where the flow of responses takes me, and I don?t have a list of sources and stuff on hand, so don?t act like I?m claiming I know to know what I?m talking about.



?Please state and show documentation of which of the three Laws of Thermodynamics was broken and had to be rewritten, so that I may either go back to school to update my learning and credentials or turn in my Masters in Physics.?

I don?t know about thermodynamics, but I know that the understanding of western medical science was that things like body temperature and heart rate were part of an autonomic nervous system that could not be subjected to any conscious control.

Then one day some eastern monks came over and showed us, in a laboratory environment, that they could indeed raise and lower their body temperature, quicken and slow their heart beats, and totally suppress the normal sympathetic nervous reactions that usually follow physical stress and pain.

As a result, the text books had to be edited, and western medicine had to reevaluate its understanding of the mind-body connection.

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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2829840 -

well I certainly don?t claim to be ?making a case? for firewalking, I haven?t done any tests or even seen it done first hand. However, my intention was never to prove the existence of firewalking, I was just using it as an example...
Why would you use an example of mind power that you are unsure of to make a point?

I cant discount the possibility that a technique exists...
Yet still you argue against it.

Also, some of these techniques ... do break scientific laws.

I don?t know about thermodynamics...
That much is true. Progress.

...but I know that the understanding of western medical science...
I will repeat the question s-l-o-w-l-y. What scientific law was broken by these monks?

I know that the understanding of western medical science was that things like body temperature and heart rate were part of an autonomic nervous system that could not be subjected to any conscious control.
Anyone can change their heart rate consciously with zero training. Would you like me to demonstrate?

As a result, the text books had to be edited..
The text books? Oh, you meant THE text books!


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Moonshoe]
    #2832168 -

"I don?t know about thermodynamics"

Come on you don't know the second law???!!!

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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Swami]
    #2832791 -

And also, Swami, no-one's saying these monks are breaking a law of physics.  They aren't spontaeniously generating any energy, they're just increasing the rate at which their body breaks down energy-rich compounds like, um, say... lunch?  What they are doing is contradicting previously concieved medical models, requiring a change in the Offical Version of How and Why Things Happen, Medical Edition.  But, these things happen all the time.

But somehow, a thread about spiritual truths has turned into a thread about scientific truths.  I think there's been a hijacking...  :borg: :borg: :borg:


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Panoramix]
    #2833101 -

Moonshoe: "Also, some of these techniques, like the monks who can raise their body temperatures, do break scientific laws."

Pan: "...no one's saying these monks are breaking a law of physics."

Guess I need new bifocals or my alzheimers is kicking in...


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Swami]
    #2833971 -

The obvious flaw in that would be Moonshoe's post mentioned breaking scientific laws, such as 'Humans have no control over automatic body functions like pulse rate, metabolic rate or body temperature.  My post says no-one's claiming the monks are breaking any laws of physics, laws of physics being a specific group of scientific laws such as 'A body at rest blah blah blah...'.  The difference is pretty obvious, but if you're having a hard time then maybe some bifocals would be a good idea.

:bored: A shame that this thread got appropriated  :captain: :pirate: by more mechanistic  :borg: :borg: :borg: viewpoints.

Maybe a spiritual 'truth' that could be draw from the examples of those monks and firewalkers would be "Confidence makes it easier to achieve your aims in most circumstances"?  Maybe not...


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Panoramix]
    #2833983 -

I'd like to know just what scientific "laws" are broken by bio-feedback (a scientific concept itself)...


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Panoramix]
    #2834056 -

Moonshoe: On the other hand, people have been known to break laws of physics...

Pan: My post says no-one's claiming the monks are breaking any laws of physics,

You are sounding a lot like Bush. (Is that considered a flame, Trendal?) Any actions having to do with heat transference are most certainly governed by the laws of physics.

A shame that this thread got appropriated ...
I know how hard it is to have one's fantasy ideas laid to rest. Note that truly open-minded thinkers do not try to limit who posts as they do NOT fear others ideas and opinions; only those holding on to their beliefs afraid that the entire structure might crack would protest.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Swami]
    #2834187 -

:lol:

Not a flame...but certainly an insult :wink:


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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free.
But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.

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Re: spiritual truths [Re: Swami]
    #2841679 -

Yeah, ouch.  :oogle: :crying: :crying:

But hey, I never claimed I was right.  Note the sig.

I wasn't really keeping track of what Moonshoe was saying ( :eek: the horror!) but I wouldn't say people can break physical laws in any sense the Swamster would ever understand.  People are certainly capable of feats that defy coventional wisdom and exceed reasonable expectations.  But I don't plan on flying to work tomorrow.  But a human being could still perform some reamarkable stuff while staying within the bounds of conventional physical laws.  If you wanna call firewalking a sweaty-footed fast-walking parlour trick, that's your loss.  :shake:


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.

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North Spore Shop: Cultivation Supplies

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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