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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25908598 -

To keep this thread going, why don't you (or anyone else) also post an RT article to discuss?

There's still many more John Oliver whoppers to come in video The Ecstatic posted.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25908601 -

That's evidence of an investigation. We just had an investigation of Russian collusion. That doesn't mean collusion happened. An investigation doesn't mean Heinz did anything wrong.

Also, is it your position that if any American citizen or company is at fault,  then the U.S. is at fault?  Or are you operating under a theory that Heinz was being used as a tool of the American government?


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25908602 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
To keep this thread going, why don't you (or anyone else) also post an RT article to discuss?

There's still many more John Oliver whoppers to come in video The Ecstatic posted.


I posted a 9/11 video already. Do you dispute that it was fake news?


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil]
    #25908607 -

Why would Heinz even want to do business in Venezuela?

Heinz isn’t a charity. If they can’t selm their products for a profit then they won’t make them.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: koods] * 1
    #25908633 -

That article is from 2015.  Still no charges against Heinz?  Doesn't Falcon have a word for long investigations without results?  Oh yeah...NOTHING BURGER.  This time, with Ketchup, though.

RT was calling 9/11 an inside job as recently as 2013:



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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil]
    #25908850 -

Enlil said:
I posted a 9/11 video already. Do you dispute that it was fake news?


I said this:  "It seems that questioning 9-11 10 years ago is all you have against rt.com (even though they now make fun of poeple who question it), but prove me wrong.  I'm sure rt.com has made at least a few mistakes."

Enlil said:
RT was calling 9/11 an inside job as recently as 2013


Ok, over 5 years ago.  One reply on that video said[/url] "Props for reposting this! It's been scrubbed from RT" showing RT is far better now than they used to be before they became mainstream.


By the way, I just reread John Oliver's statement:  "what's happening in Venezuela is actually not our fault.  Accusing America of creating Venezuela's crisis..."

So he actually said this was about "Venezuela's crisis".  Congrats for almost making this only about the food situaion.

What do you think the purpose of the US sanctions on Venezuela was?


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25909100 -

Is this how it's going to go?  Are you going to keep asking me questions instead of just presenting evidence that the statement was false?  The purpose of any U.S. Sanctions are always clearly stated in the order issuing those sanctions.  Which particular sanctions are you speaking of this time?  Sanctions have been ordered against Venezuela several times.

And please enlighten us: Other than food shortages and hyperinflation, what other crisis was Venezuela enduring in May of 2018? 

I wasn't trying to make his statement about anything.  I interpreted it one way and invited you to argue otherwise:

Enlil said:
Context.  The show was talking about food shortages. Then it went on to discuss "the Maduro diet."  Immediately thereafter, they went to Maduro blaming the U.S., followed by Oliver's statement.  To me, it seems like he's talking about the food shortages. 

If you think it's about the protests, make your case for that.   





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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil]
    #25909441 -

Enlil said:
is it your position that if any American citizen or company is at fault,  then the U.S. is at fault?  Or are you operating under a theory that Heinz was being used as a tool of the American government?


The opposite actually.  Big corporations contribute a lot to political candidates who they believe will help them profit.  Big oil and Heinz clearly have an interest in working with the US Government to overthrow Maduro.

Enlil said:
Are you going to keep asking me questions instead of just presenting evidence that the statement was false?


I provided plenty of evidence that the US has been meddling in Venezuela to make the situation worse.  I also provided a reputable source saying that "the sanctions Trump signed by executive order are bound to dramatically escalate tensions between Venezuela and the U.S. and exacerbate the country's economic crisis."

Enlil said:
The purpose of any U.S. Sanctions are always clearly stated in the order issuing those sanctions.  Which particular sanctions are you speaking of this time?  Sanctions have been ordered against Venezuela several times.


I'm talking about the sanctions issued before the John Oliver episode.



I'm ready to take this to a vote.

Enlil said:
Where would this vote be held?  Should we pick a neutral forum where neither of us are known?


That'd be great for you to take it where people haven't had the benefit of this lengthy discussion.  We should do it right here where people have heard both sides.

I think John Oliver is lying for saying the Venezuelan crisis is "not our fault".  Make your closing argument and let's take this to a vote.

Then we'll get into the other 45 minutes of the video.  :smirk:


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25909492 -

Anything you posted in another thread isn't being considered.  Please post your evidence that the U.S. caused the food shortages.  If you believe the statement was about something other than the food shortages, post your argument and your evidence of U.S. fault in that.

As of now, I don't think you've established anything except that Maduro wanted an investigation of Heinz.  There's nothing to vote on, and I certainly wouldn't have the vote on this website.  That's just inviting a popularity contest.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil]
    #25909574 -

Enlil said:
Anything you posted in another thread isn't being considered.


I posted links to those other threads in this thread; people are free to consider that or not.

Enlil said:
Please post your evidence that the U.S. caused the food shortages.  If you believe the statement was about something other than the food shortages, post your argument and your evidence of U.S. fault in that.


Again, per John Oliver himself, it's about "Venezuela's crisis".  People can decide for themselves what they believe that means.

Enlil said:
As of now, I don't think you've established anything except that Maduro wanted an investigation of Heinz.


I think a lot more has been established.  But we'll let the forum decide.

Enlil said:
There's nothing to vote on, and I certainly wouldn't have the vote on this website.  That's just inviting a popularity contest.


The Russia collusion issue proves you wrong.  I was arguing alone on that one two and a half years ago.  Eventually, starfire_xes, qman, and wooof joined me, but that's about it until we got closer to the end of the investigation (and starfire and qman usually argue against me - so it's certainly not about popularity).



I'm ready for a vote.

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25909618 -

You don't make up the rules, and we never agreed to any vote on this site.  If you want a popularity contest, have at it...I won't participate, though.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #25909660 -

an impartial judge could be agreed upon between you perhaps?  There has to be someone on this forum that you both trust (insofar as anyone trusts anyone else on the internet). 

maybe a single post for each side in the following format just for clarity's sake.

Statement in question
evidence supporting or refuting statement
explanation of any further nuance or context not explicitly contained in evidence

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25909690 -

That sounds like a better option than a vote.  The judge would only consider what is in the single post.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil]
    #25910231 -

that makes sense to me.  I got an upvote from Fal on the idea and you seem to concur, so now one of you just needs to nominate a judge the other can agree to.

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25910241 -

I nominate you.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25910264 -

You do it bal.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #25910276 -

it's not a vote, the two of them have to agree first.  Fal can veto and make another nomination if he wants.

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil]
    #25910536 -

Enlil said:
You don't make up the rules, and we never agreed to any vote on this site.  If you want a popularity contest, have at it...I won't participate, though.


You've been pushing for your own rules too though.

- You wanted the evidence to be limited to this thread only.  I wanted the evidence to be all available information, including other threads, articles, google searches, etc.
- You wanted a judge from another forum where people are much less uniformed about Venezuela.  I wanted a judge from here where people are much more likely to know what's going on
          (I know you stated a different reason, but I showed you people aren't always on my side - see Russian collusion)
- You think this should be about a specific thing that happened in Venezuela, like food shortages.  I think it should be anything related to "Venezuela's crisis" per John Oliver's statement.
- Balls followed your lead and suggested we simply look at the evidence from a single post.  I'm more interested in knowing who's right without any limits on the source of information.

I'm definitely ok with balls being the judge though.  Now the question is whether we limit the source of his information to a single post, to one thread, to any thread, or to all available information he has access to?  Again, I'm not trying to win this in court, I'm just trying to find out who's right.

Tonight's my drinking night, so I shouldn't play until tomorrow night, but I'll let Enlil choose the source of the information from my last paragraph and I'll go with that.


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25910547 -

I think the only fair way to do it is to limit the thread to three participants.

The first posts would be made by the person with the burden of proof.  For stories you claim to be fake, that would be you.  When we switch to an RT story, that would be me.  In this first step, which could take multiple posts, you would present everything that you believe to be relevant and probative to the issue of whether or not the story is fake.  You can link/quote outside sources to your heart's content.  When you have completed your argument, you simply let me know.  I will not interrupt in any way.

Step two would be rebuttal.  In this instance, that would be where I post a rebuttal to the evidence and argument you've provided.  I will follow the same rules you did. You will not interrupt until I have finished, and the judge has posted his opinion.  I will let you and the judge know when I'm done.

After that, the judge would decide based solely on what is in that thread.  He/she would not consider personal knowledge, bias, or anything outside of the evidence and argument we've presented.

No one else would post in the thread except you, me, and the judge, until the decision is posted.  I can enforce this by making the thread have specific permissions and then removing those limitations after the judge has rendered his opinion.


Fair?  I'm just trying to come up with what I think is the best way to do this.  If you guys have other ideas, I'm open.  We could also go back and forth a set number of times and then let the judge decide.  In any case, I think it has to be just two of us arguing, though. 


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: RT America vs Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #25910580 -

i think it sounds like a fun break from the usual shit-tier immigration debates we have in every other thread around here

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Political Discussion
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