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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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RT vs. Last Week Tonight * 3
    #25913141 - 04/03/19 08:39 AM (4 years, 9 months ago)

This thread is for Falcon91Wovern03 and myself to have a agreed-upon neutral third party resolve a factual dispute that we have.  We have agreed upon strict rules under which we will operate.  As such, I have closed this thread to everyone except Falcon, myself, and Ballsalsa.

I ask that moderators and admins please respect these limitations by not posting in this thread.  I cannot lock you guys out, but I do ask that you will allow this experiment to continue unhindered.

Round 1 saw Falcon submit a story from Season 5, Episode 11 of Last Week Tonight, originally aired on May 13, 2017.  This story was found to not be fake news. 
After the above decision, some rule disputes arose which have been resolved.  As part of that process, the judge has ruled that Enlil is to be Petitioner for Round 2. 

Round 2 begins with a story from RT

The revised rules are below:

For each round, there is a Petitioner and Respondent.  The Petitioner selects a story from Respondent's chosen source from the last 5 years.  Enlil's chosen source is Last Week Tonight.  Falcon91Wolvrn03's chosen source is RT America.

Petitioner has the burden of proving that the story is more likely than not a "fake news story." This term is defined as a story that includes information that is more likely false than true.  Omission of relevant information does not constitute fake news.

Each round will consist of 5 turns as follows:

1. Petitioner presents evidence and argument demonstrating the falsity of any and all information presented in his chosen story.  There is no limit to the number of outside sources that may be used, and the turn can be as many posts as is necessary. 

2. Respondent presents any rebuttal evidence and argument necessary to rebut Petitioner's turn 1.

3. Petitioner presents any additional evidence and argument he desires to strengthen his position.

4. Respondent presents any evidence and argument to rebut Petitioner.

5. Petitioner presents a final argument which must rely solely on evidence already presented in turns 1-4 of the same round.

After Petitioner's final argument, the judge will render a decision of whether or not the chosen story is fake news.

Additional Rules

1. Neither party may interrupt another party's turn by posting. The judge may interrupt to ask a question at any time.

2. The judge may only consider argument and evidence presented within the round by the Petitioner and Respondent.

3. The Round begins with the first turn by Petitioner and ends with the decision by the judge.

4. Each party must announce if he wants to make additional posts before the next round begins, or it will be assumed that he has finished his turn after a post.

5. If a story has been deemed fake news, the Petitioner and Respondent switch roles, and the new Petitioner must choose another story.

6. If a story has been deemed not to be fake news, Petitioner must choose another story and begin another round.  If Petitioner cannot find another story to attack, Petitioner may concede a loss of the competition as a whole.

7. If a dispute arises as to the boundaries of a particular story (ie., episodes that may contain more than one story), the dispute must be settled by the judge.  If a party chooses to initiate the dispute process, it must be done PRIOR to that party starting his first turn of a round.  In other words, if the Petitioner wishes the judge to decide, he must identify the issue to be decided instead of taking his first turn.  Similarly, a Respondent would identify the issue to be decided immediately after Petitioner's first turn has completed.  Once an issue is raised before the judge, all turns are suspended while the judge decides the issue.  The process of deciding that issue is at the sole discretion of the judge.

8. During a round, posting in this thread will be limited to participants.  After each round is completed, the thread will be unlocked for discussion.








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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #25914288 - 04/03/19 07:41 PM (4 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

John Oliver said:
In the absence of solutions, Maduro has reached for the next best thing... blaming someone else....  Ok so, here's the thing there - America has undoubtedly done some awful things in Central and South America. We backed coup attempts, juntas and atrocities in Chile, Argentina and Guatemala.  But refreshingly, what's happening in Venezuela is actually not our fault.  Accusing America of creating Venezuela's crisis is about as fair as accusing OJ Simpson of murdering Princess Diana.




But the US does have blame in Venezuela's crisis.  We've had entire threads about US intervention in Venezuela, but I'll keep this to only one point to make that clear.

Trump passed sanctions in August 2017 that targeted Venezuela's oil and banking industries, critical components of Venezuela's economy.

Trump Imposes 'Strong, New Sanctions' on Venezuela
Quote:

The United States on Friday forbade any dealings in new Venezuela debt or equity in Washington's latest move to pressure the repressive government of President Nicolas Maduro.

An executive order, signed by President Donald Trump, bars U.S. transaction with Maduro's government and the PDVSA state oil company.




According to US News & World Report
Quote:

The Rubio/Trump strategy seems to be to try to worsen the economic situation and increase suffering to the point where either the military, or the insurrectionary elements of the opposition, rise up and overthrow the government.

These sanctions cut off Venezuela from billions of dollars of potential loans, as well as from revenue even from its own oil company in the U.S., Citgo. They have worsened shortages of medicine and food, in an economy that is already suffering from inflation of about 3,000 percent annually and a depression that has cost about 38 percent of GDP.





If you don't trust US News & World Report, Trump's own press secretary admitted
Quote:

These measures are carefully calibrated to deny the Maduro dictatorship a critical source of financing to maintain its illegitimate rule.




Yes, Maduro is also at fault for the crisis.  But for John Oliver to state the US is not to blame is a lie.


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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25914336 - 04/03/19 08:06 PM (4 years, 9 months ago)

Sorry to interrupt, but I just want to be clear about format.  To my knowledge, this is what you two have agreed upon.

Quote:

The first posts would be made by the person with the burden of proof.  For stories you claim to be fake, that would be you.  When we switch to an RT story, that would be me.  In this first step, which could take multiple posts, you would present everything that you believe to be relevant and probative to the issue of whether or not the story is fake.  You can link/quote outside sources to your heart's content.  When you have completed your argument, you simply let me know.  I will not interrupt in any way.

Step two would be rebuttal.  In this instance, that would be where I post a rebuttal to the evidence and argument you've provided.  I will follow the same rules you did. You will not interrupt until I have finished, and the judge has posted his opinion.  I will let you and the judge know when I'm done.

After that, the judge would decide based solely on what is in that thread.  He/she would not consider personal knowledge, bias, or anything outside of the evidence and argument we've presented.





Am I correct?


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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #25914341 - 04/03/19 08:08 PM (4 years, 9 months ago)

Falcon suggested two rounds each,  then the decision.  I believe that is the format.


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InvisibleballsalsaMDiscord
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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #25914356 - 04/03/19 08:15 PM (4 years, 9 months ago)

so,
argument
rebuttal
argument
rebuttal
decision

then repeat for the next topic if people still want to at that point

is that correct?


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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #25914359 - 04/03/19 08:16 PM (4 years, 9 months ago)

I believe so.


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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #25914360 - 04/03/19 08:16 PM (4 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, I agreed to that.


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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25914370 - 04/03/19 08:21 PM (4 years, 9 months ago)

excellent.
sorry for the derailment.
carry on.


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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: ballsalsa] * 2
    #25915145 - 04/04/19 08:48 AM (4 years, 9 months ago)

Falcon provides three links to outside sources. The first of these links is an article about sanctions being imposed in mid 2017.  The second is an opinion piece.  The third is a press release from the white house stating the intention and motives behind the sanctions.  I will address these first before moving on to my affirmative evidence.

The first source quotes the third source, so I'll take them together.  Both of these sources acknowledge the existing food shortages at the time of the sanctions:

Quote:

The Maduro dictatorship continues to deprive the Venezuelan people of food and medicine . . .



This is found in both of those sources, evidencing the fact that food shortages did indeed predate those sanctions.  Of course, this means that those sanctions did not cause those food shortages. 

The second source is an opinion piece by Mark Weisbrot.  Mr. Weisbrot has a long and sordid history with regard to Venezuelan politics and economy.  In 2013, Weisbrot claimed, against the prevailing opinion at the time, that the Venezuelan economy was not about to implode. 

Quote:

Hyperinflation is also a very remote possibility.




Of course, hyperinflation is exactly what happened in Venezuela.  So much so, that PanAm Post wrote a scathing article criticizing Mr. Weisbrot and his failed prediction.  Now, we can't read that article because Mr. Weisbrot's employer decided to sue to have it taken down, but we can still read the apology for that article

Quote:

As Venezuela descends further into a dictatorship of starvation with each passing day, Mark Weisbrot remains surprisingly silent on his support for the Venezuelan regime and their economic policies. No Mark. This is not the economy of Greece or Spain. It is far worse. The apocalypse that you assured us would never come, is here.




That's from April of 2017.  Months before Trump's sanctions.  By that time, at least one person characterized the situation in Venezuela as "a dictatorship of starvation" and an "apocalypse."

Having given Mr. Weisbrot as much attention as he deserves, I'll move on to the affirmative evidence.

By September of 2013, Venezuela already had rampant food shortages.  One year later, The Economist called Venezuela "Probably the world's worst-managed economy," stating that its issues were the result of "colossal economic mismanagement".  In 2015, the inflation was 270%. By the end of 2016, Venezuela was already in economic collapse.

Quote:

Inflation will hit nearly 500 percent this year and a mind-boggling 1,600 percent next year."




All of this BEFORE the sanctions.

So, this brings us to the question that your honor really has to decide.  You're not here to decide whether the U.S. sanctions exacerbated an existing situation.  You're here to decide whether the Last Week Tonight piece on Venezuela is a "fake news story."  That is, after all, what Falcon and I have agreed to do.  We are to alternate pointing out fake news stories from each other's sources until one of us fails to find one.

In that vein, is the story a fake news story?  Falcon says it is, and he bases that argument on a statement made in the piece.  Specifically, that statement is:

Quote:

what's happening in Venezuela is actually not our fault.  Accusing America of creating Venezuela's crisis is about as fair as accusing OJ Simpson of murdering Princess Diana.




Falcon calls this a "lie."  Strong word.  Let's look at this quote and see if it rises to the level of a lie. 

The first part has some ambiguities in the use of the words "our fault."  Those words can mean several things.  Does it mean completely our fault?  Primarily our fault?  Partially our fault?  And who's fault?  Last Week Tonight Staff?  The world?  America?

The ambiguities can be cleared up by the second sentence.  "Accusing America of creating Venezuela's crisis is about as fair as accusing OJ Simpson of murdering Princess Diana."  This second sentence tells us what the first sentence means when it says the crisis is not "our fault."  He means that America didn't CREATE the crisis. 

So, did America create the crisis?  Did America cause hyperinflation and food shortages starting in 2013?  That's for your honor to decide, of course, but it seems that your honor will have to move firmly away from the established facts to make such a finding.

At this time, I'll relinquish the podium to my colleague Falcon91Wolvrn03.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #25916431 - 04/04/19 10:06 PM (4 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

John Oliver said:
Ok so, here's the thing there - America has undoubtedly done some awful things in Central and South America. We backed coup attempts, juntas and atrocities in Chile, Argentina and Guatemala.  But refreshingly, what's happening in Venezuela is actually not our fault.  Accusing America of creating Venezuela's crisis is about as fair as accusing OJ Simpson of murdering Princess Diana.



Falcon calls this a "lie."  Strong word.  Let's look at this quote and see if it rises to the level of a lie. 

The first part has some ambiguities in the use of the words "our fault."  Those words can mean several things.  Does it mean completely our fault?  Primarily our fault?  Partially our fault?



Yes, the word "fault" could be ambiguous.  Unless you watch the video from about 13:58 to 14:28 (or watch more of the video), and listen to the way John Oliver says the above.



What's your takeaway of "fault" after watching?  It sounds to me like he's saying we have no fault in the crisis.  "America has undoubtedly done some awful things in Central and South America... but REFRESHINGLY, what's happening in Venezuela is actually NOT our fault".

What's "happening in Venezuela" is US sanctions created a crisis worse than what they had before, with the express intent "to deny the Maduro dictatorship a critical source of financing to maintain its illegitimate rule."

John Oliver completely ignores this.


Quote:

Enlil said:
So, did America create the crisis?  Did America cause hyperinflation and food shortages starting in 2013?  That's for your honor to decide, of course, but it seems that your honor will have to move firmly away from the established facts to make such a finding.



You don't have to decide.  Though I could make a case that we played a role in what happened before the sanctions of 2017, let's just assume that wasn't our fault.

John Oliver made his show after the sanctions of 2017, and he COMPLETELY ignored that we tried to make things so bad in Venezuela that Maduro would be forced out.

Saying we're not at fault for what's "happening in Venezuela" and saying it's not fair to accuse America is a lie.


Since I'm giving Enlil the last word, I'll ask that you reread this post before making your final decision.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25917062 - 04/05/19 07:53 AM (4 years, 9 months ago)

Before we started this little competition, Falcon and I had a discussion about what constitutes a "fake news story."  I posed a question which he answered:

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
So, in order to qualify as a "fake news story," it need only have some false information and/or omissions of relevant facts?  I just want to make sure we have consistent rules in this thing.



This could go on forever if it included omission of relevant facts.  I recommend we go with false information.


- Link

Now, it appears that Falcon is inviting your honor to find the piece a fake news story based on omission of relevant facts:

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
John Oliver made his show after the sanctions of 2017, and he COMPLETELY ignored that we tried to make things so bad in Venezuela that Maduro would be forced out.




That, your honor, is NOT relevant to this discussion.  Falcon specifically limited the definition of "fake news story" to include only stories with "false information."  The only reason he brings up omissions in the story now is because he knows that his argument is weak as to false information.

Further, while Falcon claims that he "could make a case that we played a role in what happened before the sanctions of 2017," he most certainly DIDN'T make that case.  Why not?  Is there a better time/place than right here and now to make that case? 

Simply put, Falcon had the burden of proving that the Last Week Tonight piece contained false information.  He offered two sentences which he claims are false.  He's offered virtually nothing in the way of evidence to show that they are false, and in fact, his own sources confirm that the crisis in Venezuela predates U.S. Sanctions.  My sources show that this crisis started four years before those sanctions. 

And then he argues that the sanctions made the crisis worse.  First, does that even matter here?  Given the actual statement made by John Oliver, would that even make his statement false?  And if it would, how do we know it made the crisis worse?

Falcon tells us that sanctions made the crisis worse, and gives us zero evidence of that.  We know that in 2016, they were already predicting 1600% inflation for 2017.  How much worse can it get?

Venezuela's economy is like a dying man on the street.  America's sanctions are, at most, a stomp on the hand.  Does that make it our fault that he's dying?

In the end, you're not here to decide the culpability of America.  You're here to decide whether the following statement is a fair representation of the facts as they were in May of 2018:

Quote:


what's happening in Venezuela is actually not our fault.  Accusing America of creating Venezuela's crisis is about as fair as accusing OJ Simpson of murdering Princess Diana.




Taking into consideration only the facts presented in this thread, there's only one possible verdict here, and that is to find that the Last Week Tonight piece is not a fake news story.

Thank you.


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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #25917116 - 04/05/19 08:36 AM (4 years, 9 months ago)

This court would like to thank both of the gentlemen for their arguments.  At this time court will recess for 24 hours in order to ponder the evidence of the case and come to a decision.


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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: ballsalsa]
    #25919064 - 04/06/19 08:28 AM (4 years, 9 months ago)

The question we have come together to decide is whether or not a satirical, news-based comedy series is "fake news".
The question seems almost absurd on it's face, yet here we are.  The following is the specific language in question:
Quote:

John Oliver said:
In the absence of solutions, Maduro has reached for the next best thing... blaming someone else....  Ok so, here's the thing there - America has undoubtedly done some awful things in Central and South America. We backed coup attempts, juntas and atrocities in Chile, Argentina and Guatemala.  But refreshingly, what's happening in Venezuela is actually not our fault.  Accusing America of creating Venezuela's crisis is about as fair as accusing OJ Simpson of murdering Princess Diana.



It is the belief of this court, that there are some circumstances under which this would qualify as fake news.  Were we considering lies of omission, there would be no question.  However, the narrow scope of this investigation and the strict definition of what constitutes a lie that has been agreed upon by all parties involved have rendered the outcome less clear.  One question that has arisen during the course of these proceedings is how to interpret the word "created".  The plaintiff would have us accept that exacerbating an existing issue is a form of creation in that it "creates" an even more harrowing set of conditions which are fundamentally different from initial conditions that led to the issue in the first place.  Imagine you've come upon a man hanging from a cliff.  He's put himself in that position, you had nothing to do with it, having seen him, you decide to step on his fingers and watch him fall into the abyss.  Did you create the falling into the abyss crisis?  Some would say no.  After all, the man put himself in such a precarious position without your help.  Others would say yes.  After all, the man had a chance to extricate himself before you directly influenced to outcome with the intent of deciding it.  The defendant would have us believe that only direct actions that can be traced causally to the situation at hand and predate the crisis can be said to have created it.  This, of course, begs the question of how far back into the mists of time to peer when determining the genesis of a crisis.  It may well be possible to make the case that U.S. policy decisions at some time in the past did, in fact, create the current economic and political issues at hand in Venezuela according to this strict definition of the word "create".  However, that case has not been made during the course of these proceedings.  It is the opinion of this court that the piece by Last Week Tonight, was disingenuous and potentially misleading.  It omitted contextual information with the intent to lead the viewers to a specific conclusion, namely, that the U.S. is not at fault for the current woes in Venezuela.  However, given the agreed upon definition of "fake news" and the use of the word "create" in the phrase under scrutiny, it is the duty of this court to find the defendant not guilty of being fake news at this time.


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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #25919081 - 04/06/19 08:39 AM (4 years, 9 months ago)

Thank you for your considered opinion. I particularly like the way you decided to make your paragraph a huge monolith to make it harder to read.  Reminds me of reading an actual opinion.


I have opened this thread to all posters.


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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #25919117 - 04/06/19 09:10 AM (4 years, 9 months ago)

Should have made a signature bet.


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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25919174 - 04/06/19 09:57 AM (4 years, 9 months ago)

Given this decision, I believe Falcon still needs to present a fake news story from Last Week Tonight.  In the alternative, he can concede that it is a more reliable source than RT.


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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #25919218 - 04/06/19 10:35 AM (4 years, 9 months ago)

Good form on all sides....this format should come back from time to time.

Thunderdome.


--------------------
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Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: SirTripAlot] * 1
    #25919226 - 04/06/19 10:39 AM (4 years, 9 months ago)

I agree, and I am more than willing to set access restrictions for any members who would like to have private debates.  It's refreshing to do this without the vitriolic rhetoric that often accompanies debates in this forum.


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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil]
    #25919243 - 04/06/19 10:52 AM (4 years, 9 months ago)

I really meant to put more time into it and getting my jargon right, but i got into it with the old lady last night and had to write it up before work this morning.  The thing is full of typos.


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Re: RT vs. Last Week Tonight [Re: Enlil]
    #25919253 - 04/06/19 11:02 AM (4 years, 9 months ago)

I figured whoever got the last word would win.  I accept the judge's decision, but I'd still like to address Enlil's last post for the record.

Quote:

Enlil said:
Before we started this little competition, Falcon and I had a discussion about what constitutes a "fake news story."  I posed a question which he answered:

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
So, in order to qualify as a "fake news story," it need only have some false information and/or omissions of relevant facts?  I just want to make sure we have consistent rules in this thing.



This could go on forever if it included omission of relevant facts.  I recommend we go with false information.


- Link

Now, it appears that Falcon is inviting your honor to find the piece a fake news story based on omission of relevant facts:

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
John Oliver made his show after the sanctions of 2017, and he COMPLETELY ignored that we tried to make things so bad in Venezuela that Maduro would be forced out.




That, your honor, is NOT relevant to this discussion.  Falcon specifically limited the definition of "fake news story" to include only stories with "false information."  The only reason he brings up omissions in the story now is because he knows that his argument is weak as to false information.



John Oliver has every right not to talk about the US sanctions if he doesn't want to.  But for Enlil to claim "The only reason he brings up omissions in the story now is because he knows that his argument is weak as to false information" is false, becuase John Oliver said " what's happening in Venezuela is actually not our fault."  Had John Oliver said "What's happening in Venezuela, if you ONLY take into account what I've talked to you about, is not our fault", THEN he would have been truthful.


Enlil and I also had another important agreement:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
We have to set the threshold of proof that we're willing to accept.  If you want to set the burden at "more likely than not," that's one thing.  If you want to set it at "mere scintilla of proof," that's another.  I don't care where the threshold is, as long as we're held to the same standard.



Let's go with 'more likely than not'.



Is it more likely than not that sanctions targeting Venezuela's oil and banking industries, which were implemented specifically to force Maduro out, were our fault?

Quote:

Enlil said:
Further, while Falcon claims that he "could make a case that we played a role in what happened before the sanctions of 2017," he most certainly DIDN'T make that case.  Why not?  Is there a better time/place than right here and now to make that case?



The reason I didn't make that case because I thought my other point was sufficient to win.


Regardless, the reason this whole thread even started had nothing to do with discrediting John Oliver.  It was to point out that NO ONE has been able to find a SINGLE lie from rt.com from the last 5 years, and that STILL holds true.  I'm sure there's a few out there, but the fact that no one has found any gives them a great deal of credit.

Hence my point that rt.com appears to be a very reliable source of information still appears true.  Unless Enlil would like to present any fake news for another discussion?  :smirk:


Edit:  Enlil posted this as I wrote my reply:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Given this decision, I believe Falcon still needs to present a fake news story from Last Week Tonight.  In the alternative, he can concede that it is a more reliable source than RT.



No one has provided a single fake news story from rt.com.  How does that make John Oliver MORE reliable?


How about this?  I'll bring up another John Oliver lie, and you bring up an rt.com lie.  We can discuss these in parallel.  You can't claim rt.com is unreliable if you can't find any unreliable news.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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