Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

It seems that questioning 9-11 10 years ago is all you have against rt.com (even though rt now makes fun of people who question 9-11), but prove me wrong.  I'm sure rt.com has made at least a few mistakes.

Let's play a game.  Tell me a news source that you trust more than rt.com, and I'll find a fake news story from them.  Then you do the same for rt.com.  We go back and forth until someone can't find a fake news story, and loses.  Ready?

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Enlil said:

I have found no source I trust, but this still could be fun.  I'll pick Last Week Tonight as my source. Have at it.

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The Ecstatic said:

LWT’s story on Venezuela a few months (a year?) back was chock full of blatant lies, for example that the US played no role in the current situation in Venezuela, despite crippling sanctions and the outright funding of right wing opposition groups.

Around 13:30 mark

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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

On my computer he said it at 14:15 - "Refreshingly, what's happening in Venezuela is actually not our fault.  Accusing America of creating Venezuala's crisis is about as fair as fair as accusing OJ Simpson of murdering Princess Diana."

There's one hell of a lie right there.

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The Ecstatic said:

It’s 46 minutes long and the guy’s voice is annoying but I found this video to be a decent rebuttal to the picture LWT tonight paints of the situation in Venezuela:

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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Holy cow, that was a great video.    After watching that I've lost ALL my remaining respect for John Oliver because he is clearly one hell of a bullshit artist.  Enlil picked the wrong show - that video alone should win me this contest.

But prove us wrong.  Tell us about an rt.com lie.  Anyone here can play.   

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Enlil said:

I'll go with this story:

https://www.rt.com/news/426953-opcw-chlorine-saraqeb-attack/

Debunked here:

https://www.polygraph.info/a/rt-calls-white-helmets-jihadists/29233019.html

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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Ok, let's go with that.  Your second link states the following:

Quote:

"A former British ambassador to Syria told RT the OPCW ‘s claim that chlorine was "likely used" in Saraqeb, Syria, in February is "seriously misleading" because it is based on evidence provided by “jihadists.”

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Peter Ford, the former British ambassador actually DID say that - he said it in your first link.  So it is true.  And rt.com very clearly attributed that statement to him.

Nonetheless, I've always argued that news media have an obligation to verify their news before they print it, but this was an interview done with a high ranking Westerner; it's not a printed news story.

Nonetheless again, the only 'debunking' done by your article was a claim that the white helmets are not, in fact, jihadists.  That's debatable, but it turns out irrelevant.  RT itself pointed out that the 'jihadists' were "Belgium-based Same Justice/Chemical Violations Documentation Center of Syria (CVDCS), the notorious Syrian Civil Defence (SCD) – better known as White Helmets – and the US-based Syrian American Medical Society (SAMS)."

So they were completely transparent about who it was - and the reader can decide for themselves whether they trust the white helmets or not.

Try again?

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Enlil said:

I'm sorry, Falcon.  You don't get to decide what is and isn't true or misleading.  If I decided, you would not have been allowed to use that LWT episode, because I believe the episode to be accurate.

RT printed this without any attribution to a source:

Quote:

"In fact, the entire OPCW account is based on witness testimonies and material evidence provided by selected NGOs as well as medical records offered by the same questionable sources, including Belgium-based Same Justice/Chemical Violations Documentation Center of Syria (CVDCS), the notorious Syrian Civil Defense (SCD) – better known as White Helmets – and the US-based Syrian American Medical Society (SAMS)."

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If you aren't willing to play using the same standards on both sides, I'm not interested.  If you want the bar to be any statement that the other thinks is false, that's fine.  That's the bar that you hit with LWT so far.  If you want the standard to be a verifiably false statement, then you didn't meet that standard with the Venezuela piece.

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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

What are you talking about Enlil?  It says it right in the OPCW report:

Quote:

"Through liaison with representatives of several NGOs, including Same Justice/Chemical Violations Documentation Center of Syria (CVDCS), the Syrian Civil Defence - also known as White Helmets - (SCD) and the Syrian American Medical Society (SAMS), the FFM contacted witnesses and confirmed their willingness to provide testimony and potential evidence."

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Again, rt is proven correct (unless you're saying you don't believe the OPCW report, but that's not on rt)

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The Ecstatic said:

Enlil said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Are you saying you don't believe US sanctions hurt Venezuela?

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No. I don't think they have much of anything to do with the situation reported upon in that piece. In addition, I don't think sanctions themselves are our fault.

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We just unilaterally impose them is all.

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koods said:

You have any evidence that the US is behind them?

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SirTripAlot said:

koods said:

You keep taking about sanctions. The sanctions until last year were against select individuals. Only 7 people were sanctioned until Trump sanctioned dozens more. The sanctions against the state oil company are barely two months old. The Venezuelan economic crisis predates all these measures.

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Its not just the US....The Bank of England is not allowing Maduro to withdrawal 1.2 billion in gold.

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/01/26/uk/venezuela-maduro-bank-of-england-gold-withdrawal-gbr-intl/index.html

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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

The Ecstatic said:

Enlil said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Are you saying you don't believe US sanctions hurt Venezuela?

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No. I don't think they have much of anything to do with the situation reported upon in that piece. In addition, I don't think sanctions themselves are our fault.

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We just unilaterally impose them is all.

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So Enlil, you don't believe sanctions have much of anything to do with the situation in Venezuela?  Billions of dollars being withheld while freezing loans isn't hurting them?  Why do you think the sanctions were passed?  Do you think the sanctions are helping Venezuela?

Edit:  By the way, here's the full text of what John Oliver said above "America has undoubtedly done some awful things in Central and South America. We backed coup attempts, juntas and atrocities in Chile, Argentina and Guatemala but refreshingly, what's happening in Venezuela is actually not our fault", clearly implying there were/are no coup attempts in Venezuela.

Did you find any fake news from rt.com?  I provided evidence definitively proving your first rt story was not fake after all.

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Enlil said:

Before we get to that, you have to establish that the statement was false.  Let's see your evidence.

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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

there's this:

Quote:

And The White House’s measures to freeze PDVSA’s U.S. assets, including proceeds from oil exports, and limit the company’s transactions are an attempt to largely cut off Maduro’s access to oil revenue that accounts for most of the country’s income in hard currency.

U.S. national security adviser John Bolton said the sanctions would block $7 billion in PDVSA’s assets “plus over $11 billion in lost export proceeds over the next year.”

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Enlil said:

The quote you posted is about sanctions levied in the last couple months.  How did sanctions levied this year cause the troubles in Venezuela last year???

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Quote:

The sanctions Trump signed by executive order are bound to dramatically escalate tensions between Venezuela and the U.S. and exacerbate the country's economic crisis.

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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

John Oliver claimed "what's happening in Venezuela is actually not our fault".  If we exacerbated a crisis, however that crisis came into existence, that is our fault.

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Enlil said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

John Oliver claimed "what's happening in Venezuela is actually not our fault".  If we exacerbated a crisis, however that crisis came into existence, that is our fault.

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That's a weak argument. So weak that I don't see how you can characterize the story as "fake." Is that the best you have?

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Quote:

So if you broke your leg, and then I hammered your broken leg with a baseball bat, you wouldn't say your new condition is my fault?

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koods said:

Quote:

So if you broke your leg, and then I hammered your broken leg with a baseball bat, you wouldn't say your new condition is my fault?

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Your analogy game is weak.

If your leg breaks due to your own actions, then you are the person responsible for your injury. If someone compounds those injuries, that doesn’t mean you are absolved of the original damage.

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Enlil said:

There's nothing to argue yet.  You have not established how any of it is our fault.  You haven't made any nexus between sanctions and the problems in Venezuela in May of 2018.  You haven't even begun to show how the statement is false.  You just keep asking questions.  I've answered questions.  Now make your case or admit that you can't.

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Enlil said:

If he says sanctions caused the thing, he needs to show how sanctions caused it and show how the sanctions were unjustified.  If the sanctions were justified, it's not our fault any more than it's the police's fault when a bank robber goes to jail.

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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Enlil said:

If he says sanctions caused the thing, he needs to show how sanctions caused it and show how the sanctions were unjustified.  If the sanctions were justified, it's not our fault any more than it's the police's fault when a bank robber goes to jail.

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Who gets to decide if imposing sanctions to oust a foreign country's president is justified?  You, or the Venezuelan people?  Because it's clear what the majority of Venezuelan people think about US intervention.

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koods said:

The oil sanctions are two months old. The rest of the sanctions were on individuals.

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Quote:

The Trump administration on Friday slapped sweeping financial sanctions on Venezuela, barring banks from any new financial deals with the government or state-run oil giant PDVSA.

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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

koods said:

The oil sanctions are two months old. The rest of the sanctions were on individuals.

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Every article on the original sanctions says you're make believing again:

U.S. imposes tough economic sanctions on Venezuela
Aug. 25, 2017, 9:03 a.m.
By Associated Press

Quote:

The Trump administration on Friday slapped sweeping financial sanctions on Venezuela, barring banks from any new financial deals with the government or state-run oil giant PDVSA.

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koods said:

Interesting how you think a economically independent socialist paradise crumbles without access to the epitome of capitalism: US banks. 🤪

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koods said:

He rattles off statistics about poverty, healthcare, homelessness and literacy and how it’s all improved. He says Chavez is beloved. He says millions of homes have been built despite the economic crisis. These things may all be true. I doubt it.

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koods said:

But that leads to the question, how does a country that has seen a near compete economic collapse afford that kind of spending?

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koods said:

The reporting in mainstream media is very negative about the situation. Is that because there is an agenda or because the facts in the ground are dire?

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koods said:

Media organizations have biases, but they don’t have the same biases, yet almost every major news gathering organization reports the same thing about Venezuela: it’s a failed state. Across the political spectrum, the narrative from professional journalists and outlets is in stark disagreement with what some of the alternative media - such as empire files - are saying. These places have biases as well, and from what I can see their bias is undeniably agenda driven. They have a niche audience of anti-interventionists and anti-capitalists. They are not journalists. They are activists.

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koods said:

Sometimes the mainstream media gets it wrong. (The aide bus wasn’t burned by maduro troops, but we also know this because of the New York Times) But there doesn’t appear to be deliberate attempts to mislead the public.

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koods said:

Fal posted a Wikileaks document from the state department that seemed to be unconcerned with the current human suffering taking place. He never mentioned the document was 45 years old.

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You think the US is suddenly concerned about human suffering abroad?  Jesus koods. 

koods said:

Fal posted a video by a guy who went to Venezuela to report that grocery stores were well stocked and the rumors of shortages were immaculate. It was only mentioned in passing in the video, and not by fal, that the store didn’t accept Venezuelan currency and you had to have American cash or a credit card to buy anything. Nearly the entire population would have no ability to shop there.

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koods said:

It comes down to this. The mainstream media is motivated by maintaining credibility. Reporters lose jobs when they make up stories or lie.

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koods said:

On the other hand, the ideological true believers have every reason to discredit anyone whose makes the Chavez revolution look like a failure. In the end it’s just clear to me that one side is driven by an agenda and the other isn’t.

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Quote:

Venezuela had the richest economy in all of South America before the United States stepped in.  Even Enlil has acknowledged many times that Socialism cannot succeed because the the United States will never allow it.

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Quote:

You've told us many times about how as a youngster, you've travelled to Russia, Venezuela, and places the rest of us could only have dreamed of visiting.  This makes me believe you come from a wealthy family.  Which may be why you support establishment stories that bolster the rich?

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koods said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Venezuela had the richest economy in all of South America before the United States stepped in.  Even Enlil has acknowledged many times that Socialism cannot succeed because the the United States will never allow it.

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Stop with this bullshit. Your entire argument requires that everyone agree that US action is responsible for the current situation. You have not provided sufficient evidence to even consider this proposition. You keep blaming sanctions but the sanctions came long after Venezuela’s economy began to crater. If you’re gonna talk about make believe, I think claiming that the cause of events can occur after those events qualifies. You aren’t just making politcal claims, you are challenging our understanding of a fundamental property of the universe: that time only moves in one direction.

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koods said:

I voted for Bernie. Do you have any other fake news?

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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

koods said:

Fal posted a Wikileaks document from the state department that seemed to be unconcerned with the current human suffering taking place. He never mentioned the document was 45 years old.

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You think the US is suddenly concerned about human suffering abroad?  Jesus koods. 

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SirTripAlot said:

We need to stop meddling; by not giving them money/aid, it reduces the chances of  US meddling. You agree?

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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

When I told you there's no proof of Russian Government intervention, you insisted proof only needs to be the smallest amount of evidence, like the FBIs' belief Russia did it based on past Russian behavior (whatever that means).

Now, when I say the sanctions exacerbated the situation in Venezuela and provide an article backing that up, you not only dismiss it, but you say it doesn't count if a reasonable person believes the sanctions were justified. 

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Enlil said:

We have to set the threshold of proof that we're willing to accept.  If you want to set the burden at "more likely than not," that's one thing.  If you want to set it at "mere scintilla of proof," that's another.  I don't care where the threshold is, as long as we're held to the same standard.

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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

At 13:55 John Oliver said "He (Maduro) chalked up protests against him to this: (shows video of Maduro saying "this is part of scheme of non-conventional war that the US has perfected throughout recent decades"), then John Oliver immediately says "Ok so, here's the thing there - America has undoubtedly done some awful things in Central and South America. We backed coup attempts, juntas and atrocities in Chile, Argentina and Guatemala.  But refreshingly, what's happening in Venezuela is actually not our fault.  Accusing America of creating Venezuela's crisis is about as fair as accusing OJ Simpson of murdering Princess Diana."

I have no idea how you concluded that means US sanctions caused the food 'shortages'.

John Oliver believes America is not responsible for the protests in Venezuela against Maduro, nor many other things happening in Venezuela.  Are you looking for evidence that the US is behind the protests?

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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Enlil said:

We have to set the threshold of proof that we're willing to accept.  If you want to set the burden at "more likely than not," that's one thing.  If you want to set it at "mere scintilla of proof," that's another.  I don't care where the threshold is, as long as we're held to the same standard.

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Let's go with 'more likely than not'.  If we disagree, we put it to a vote.

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Enlil said:

The show was talking about food shortages. Then it went on to discuss "the Maduro diet."  Immediately thereafter, they went to Maduro blaming the U.S., followed by Oliver's statement.  To me, it seems like he's talking about the food shortages. 

If you think it's about the protests, make your case for that.

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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Venezuela to Investigate Food Giant Kraft Heinz for 'Sabotage'

Quote:

...Heinz employees reportedly claimed the company’s factories are capable of operating at full capacity to meet the country’s shortage of certain food items—but that the owners do not want that to happen.

The Venezuelan government claims private corporations are deliberately hoarding food items to manufacture shortages ahead of parliamentary elections

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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

To keep this thread going, why don't you (or anyone else) also post an RT article to discuss?

There's still many more John Oliver whoppers to come in video The Ecstatic posted.

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