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Are genetics finite?
    #25903005 -

So I wasn't sure where to post this but I hear so often that genetics determines the size of the fruit body, but I feel that's a half truth, id say genetics determine it's strain variable limitations and it's not a set genetic size but a "range"

In The limits of that genetic "range" environmental conditions can vary the size to tip the scale to one side or the other.

For example the same isolation of genetics:
Sample A.) spawned as a pint sized whole brown rice pf cake or
sample B.) spawned as a 5 lb bag of the same isolation on whole brown rice, spawned to a bulk tub of coir with a deep substrate.

Which will produce larger fruit?

(Environmental factors like humidity, substrate depth, fae, etc etc)

Next example

Nutritional limitations, say we make bulk spawn bags with coir and 5% grain supplement and fruit as a block, compared to a higher grain ratio like traditional 1:1 grain/coir
Would you see any difference in the size of fruit bodies? (I know this isn't standard practice just using as a test control)

So my question is, are genetics really the set factor that every isolation will grow exactly the same or average the same size? And if not then why are people busting each other's balls saying it's genetics, when that's only half the battle?

Wouldn't the other half of that equation be optimal growth from nutritional values and environmental factors, genetics determin our potential to be a certain height. But it's proven that poor nutrition and adulterants like, cigarettes, coffee and other substances can stunt our potential if induced during critical developmental stages of our lives, this is logical and I believe it applies to all living cells


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since when can the weather man predict the weather yet alone the future
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Re: Are genetics finite? [Re: roxes_kh]
    #25903241 -

To oversimplify hugely: Genetics determine the maximums, conditions determine the minimums.

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Re: Are genetics finite? [Re: teladi]
    #25903303 -

Good genetics don't really matter if you cant get conditions right. Once you get condition dialed in and get reliable results you'll be able to reap the rewards of better genetics


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Re: Are genetics finite? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25904142 -

So genetics aren't critical unless you have constant and dialed in fruiting conditions. So your saying it should be more stressed to get that right before worrying about genetics. This is along the lines of what I was thinking, thanks for your responses, now how do we deprogram people from perpetuating this as solely genetics, when optimal conditions are also a key factor, I see a lot of hate preached saying it's all genetics and when you mention optimal fruiting conditions they refuse to look at it any other way and won't acknowledge conditions play a major part in fruit body development

Again thanks for the response and not force feeding me the bs I get from other members


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since when can the weather man predict the weather yet alone the future
-Dr Emmett Brown

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Edited by roxes_kh (03/29/19 03:24 PM)

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Re: Are genetics finite? [Re: roxes_kh]
    #25904176 -

Just don't listen to people who are just poorly repeating what they've heard. The only people saying stuff like that are people who haven't even started working with agar usually.


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Re: Are genetics finite? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25904259 -

I know better then to listen to that, it more so they don't listen, they just follow blindly and repeat what they've heard, usually being misquoted, but Also since we are on the topic,

do genetics determine yield?

I'm under the impression that yield is directly related to the amount of available nutritional value available to the mycelium, either from grain spawn, or nutrient dense substrate And optimal conditions for fruit to reach their genetic potential, along with strong isolates with desired genetics. Am I wrong?


--------------------
since when can the weather man predict the weather yet alone the future
-Dr Emmett Brown

:vaped:http://shroomotopia.net/index.php?showtopic=12561
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/8191476

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Re: Are genetics finite? [Re: roxes_kh]
    #25904266 -

if you know the amount of available nutrition you can calculate expected yield with reliable cultures. This is especially true for the gourmet growers


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Re: Are genetics finite? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25904323 -

Again this agrees with my thoughts on it, so yield is proportional to nutrition.

So my next question, I've seen a lot of contradicting info on coir, some swear it doesn't contam, others say they get trich with it, then more chime in saying if it contams it's because the spawn was already infected, and it's said with authority like it's a set fact, and I struggle to believe that it doesn't contaminate because it's an organic medium.

What's your thoughts?

Sorry for all the questions but I have a few more just trying to spread them out so I can get feedback and not over load you


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since when can the weather man predict the weather yet alone the future
-Dr Emmett Brown

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Re: Are genetics finite? [Re: roxes_kh]
    #25904362 -

Well some cultures yields are quite different depending on strain. Two different shiitake strains can perform wildly different on the same substrate

I think it takes bad spawn to make coir grows go bad that fast. Coir on its own takes forever to mold if it ever does. Weak spawn can vector contamination to coir. One popular theory is bacterial spawn may look fine but is an invitation to mold. So while spawn might not have the mold it is susceptible if it's not completely healthy


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Re: Are genetics finite? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25904625 -

Yes I've heard that theory, but I also thought bacteria reproduce faster then molds, and a lot tend to make the growing medium unfavorable for other organisms like for example yeast making alcohol,

I have seen in horticulture they treat coir with trich and other molds to break it down for plants, and it's essentially a wood base fiber, and that alone means it's susceptible, I've seen plain coir get trich but yes is agree it's not highly susceptible like manure but it's not impossible either, it's when people say it doesn't like it's a solid fact that it can't, that brings me to my next question, kind of tying it all together

If yield is based on nutritional intake,
optimal fruiting conditions are more critical then genetics,
And coir can still contaminate, and coir requires a heavy spawn to coir ratio because it is lean on available nutrients, why do people use coir over manure these days? And why do they shun people that still use and believe in traditional manure teks? They say that it's outdated, and say it contams easier, which i understand that part but I have always gotten contam with coir and hardly ever with manure, and I spawn to manure at a thin ratio of 1:10 with great results, and yes it takes longer to colonize but it rarely contams and I can get 3-4 flushes

I've been out of the loop for a while and the new info seems contrived and contradictory


--------------------
since when can the weather man predict the weather yet alone the future
-Dr Emmett Brown

:vaped:http://shroomotopia.net/index.php?showtopic=12561
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Re: Are genetics finite? [Re: roxes_kh]
    #25904695 -

Who's saying it's outdated? Most people just don't want to have to pasteurize for a couple tubs of cubes when boiling coir works


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Re: Are genetics finite? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25905834 -

Yea that's what I figured, nobody wants to mess with manure anymore, I prefer it because I can make more sub then spawn and it really allows you to expand


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since when can the weather man predict the weather yet alone the future
-Dr Emmett Brown

:vaped:http://shroomotopia.net/index.php?showtopic=12561
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Re: Are genetics finite? [Re: roxes_kh]
    #25906049 -

On top of that your yield is pretty reliably measured by amount of spawn used irregardless of substrate composition. So manure doesn't offer a real benefit for the extra work in most people's opinions. There's some diehards out there


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Re: Are genetics finite? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25906555 -

That's what I beg to differ though, I don't believe that is accurate, I can put 10 quarts of spawn in 100 quarters of manure a 1:10 ratio and pull more then the B.E of 1-2 oz per quart of spawn
Coir is 1:1 or 1:2 and pulls all the energy from the spawn and so your yield comes from spawn
Manure can be spawned thin and can yield more with less spawn


--------------------
since when can the weather man predict the weather yet alone the future
-Dr Emmett Brown

:vaped:http://shroomotopia.net/index.php?showtopic=12561
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/8191476

new items for sell pm for information and requests starting 5/20/12

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Re: Are genetics finite? [Re: roxes_kh]
    #25907315 -

roxes_kh said:
That's what I beg to differ though, I don't believe that is accurate, I can put 10 quarts of spawn in 100 quarters of manure a 1:10 ratio and pull more then the B.E of 1-2 oz per quart of spawn
Coir is 1:1 or 1:2 and pulls all the energy from the spawn and so your yield comes from spawn
Manure can be spawned thin and can yield more with less spawn


What are the BE differences? What evidence do you have that cubensis derives no energy from coir? If you say you get BE differences I assume you have some compelling evidence and calculations to show me

Ive yet to see anyone report a BE that substantially better. I can put 5oz of spawn in a monotub with a brick of coir and get 8-10 oz first flush. That's the same best ive seen with any substrate.

Of course no one that has that feeling/opinion and says the BE is better has ever proved it or even attempted to make a comparison and document it. But just going off what people's best results are there's really no difference to be seen between substrates imo. And that's after 6 years of watching thousands of people grow on this site and comparing their results

You say you pull more BE but don't even know your BE numbers off the top of your head as well you don't have your own comparison thread nor do you have grow threads of both substrates with calculated BE. So I'm just going to say RED FLAG.


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Re: Are genetics finite? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #25908294 -

I'll have to do a comparison thread and document everything, but yea I understand if there's no proof then it didn't happen


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since when can the weather man predict the weather yet alone the future
-Dr Emmett Brown

:vaped:http://shroomotopia.net/index.php?showtopic=12561
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/8191476

new items for sell pm for information and requests starting 5/20/12

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Re: Are genetics finite? [Re: roxes_kh]
    #25908937 -

I'm not a very experienced grower, but I have quite a lot of experience with coir from my tarantula keeping pursuit I had a few years ago.

With more tropical species, you will often have quite moist enclosure for your tarantula and very rarely will anything grow on it. In a few years of keeping tarantulas, I only had one instance when I got some mycelium growing on coir. Never have I seen anyone on tarantula forums having trich growing on coir.

My completely uneducated guess is that if you get trich on your coir, you had bacterial infection in your spawn, which will partially metabolise coir and make it more favorable to trich. Before spreading this out of my ass statement, wait for some TCs to confirm or deny this theory.


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Re: Are genetics finite? [Re: poisoned]
    #25914221 -

Poisoned, your obviously a troll tc, you start off saying your not experienced but then offer details that someone with experience would say, glad you have multiple accounts


--------------------
since when can the weather man predict the weather yet alone the future
-Dr Emmett Brown

:vaped:http://shroomotopia.net/index.php?showtopic=12561
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/8191476

new items for sell pm for information and requests starting 5/20/12

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Re: Are genetics finite? [Re: roxes_kh] * 1
    #25914277 -

:rolleyes:


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Re: Are genetics finite? [Re: roxes_kh]
    #25914762 -

Sounding smart is easy. Being smart requires some work that I haven't done yet.


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