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OfflineThE_JafF
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Spawn Ratios-What matters more: mycelium or more nutrients ?
    #1702122 - 07/10/03 12:11 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Here is a question I have never really seen discussed. When dealing with a really good rich mushroom compost, what is the important factor in achieving quick colonization and a decent yield. The amount of mycelium you spawn the compost with, or is it the added nutrients from the spawn itself(from grain for example)?

What I am getting at, is this. Would a comparable amount of mycelium from say, colonized cardboard, or straw, or some other low nutrient substrate, leap off onto a rich compost with as much vigor, and produce a similar yield, as the same amount of mycelium introduced to the compost from grain spawn?

Meaning, is the compost the main substrate here, or is it mearly supplemental to the grain?

Just a thought

ThE JafF


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Spawn Ratios-What matters more: mycelium or more nutrients ? [Re: ThE_JafF]
    #1702231 - 07/10/03 01:03 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

The compost is the main substrate, and it is supplemented BY the grain.


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OfflineThE_JafF
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Re: Spawn Ratios-What matters more: mycelium or more nutrients ? [Re: Anno]
    #1702530 - 07/10/03 02:37 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Well thats part of my question, hmm.. I guess ultimately what I am wondering is if the compost has enough nutrition to support growth and fruiting on its own, provided it can get enough mycelluim to grow through it, or is it dependant on the grain as a supplement. Do you see what I am getting at?

I know its much harder for a small amount of mycelium to grow throughout a larger amount of bulk substrate and that a high spawn ratio is prefered.. But is it the grain supplementation that is making this possible, or just the higher amount of already grown mycelium.. I always looked at this situation as having a simple answer: both, but recently started wondering.. Wouldn't rich properly prepared compost containing all the good stuff (horse,cow, and poulty manures, cottonseed, etc.) have more than enough nutrients? Of course the grain supplementation helps, but is it necessary? As I illustrated, you could use something like grey cardboard, or straw, or other similar low nutrient substrate, to introduce a large amount of mycelium at once, which wouldn't have the extra nutrition that grain provides, but would keep a similar spawn ratio.

I ask because I have never heard this discussed, and know that sometimes just because it should work, doesn't mean it will. Sometimes its understanding these little intricacies that allows you to see a whole new line of questioning. i.e. liquid to cardboard to compost without much risk of contamination. It isn't quite straight liquid to bulk, but its close.


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Re: Spawn Ratios-What matters more: mycelium or more nutrients ? [Re: ThE_JafF]
    #1702732 - 07/10/03 03:25 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Straw will have enough nutrition by itself. People use it to spawn more straw, and use that colonized straw to spawn more straw (out of TMC) .... so on and so on....

The more mycelium and the better mixed, though, the faster the run, hence less chance of contam.

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OfflineThE_JafF
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Re: Spawn Ratios-What matters more: mycelium or more nutrients ? [Re: micro]
    #1702780 - 07/10/03 03:35 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Ya know.. I forgot all about that.. I guess perhaps straw was a bad example, but it also perhaps gives me my answer, as straw is a major portion of the compost, and thus much less nutricious with all those other goodies in there. Perhaps this is a possibility then.

Another thought though, with straw like you said, it can be done, but you really have a limited time in which you can work with straw, as it typically ends in contamination real quick... But I bet if the straw was resoaked in a mild bleach solution just before spawning a larger amount of lime/bleach soaked straw, you could expand it as much as you want. Maybe not..

Anyway.. thanks to both of you for your answers.


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Re: Spawn Ratios-What matters more: mycelium or more nutrients ? [Re: ThE_JafF]
    #1704767 - 07/11/03 03:15 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

>But I bet if the straw was resoaked in a mild bleach solution just before spawning a larger amount of lime/bleach soaked straw, you could expand it as much as you want. Maybe not..
<

so your planning on doing this to the straw that u transfer or the straw that you spawn to...

and what ratio would you go about without killing the straw.?


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Spawn Ratios-What matters more: mycelium or more nutrients ? [Re: pussycontrol]
    #1706165 - 07/11/03 04:12 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Are you THE JafF, of old, like back in 99?  If so, howdy man, been a long time since I've seen you around.  How'd you end up with only 3 posts?

Anyway, on the subject of nutrition, I have pondered this, discussed it and come to several pretty good conclusions.  To do this, I'll rely on the work of published authors as a benchmark to compare things against.

Let's look at stamets, I assume we all agree he probably makes as good compost as anybody, right?  And let's look specifically at agaricus, because the literature dealing with agaricus and compost is plentiful.  Minimum spawn rates of grain into compost are what, a quart per 8 sq. ft, with compost layers up to 12 in. deep?  I think I read that in TMC.  In this case, the grain is adding very little nutrition into the substrate and it still yields at a level which is economically feasible.

But then Stamet's goes on to talk about techniques for SASing and SACing (supplementing at spawning/casing) which increases yields, very noticably according to some studies.  This tells me that even though Stamet's is using arguably the best compost attainable, it still doesn't have enough nutrition for maximum yield.

Stamets also argues somewhere, don't remember where, that IHO, the best supplement for a bulk substrate is more spawn as opposed to spawnmate, cottonseed meal or the like, because with spawn, the supplement is already encapsulated in mycelium, protecting it from contamination.  He also points out in several other places that spawn needs to be taken into consideration as a supplement when figure B.E and other measures of yield or comparrison.

Add to that personal experience that home cultivators typically use very high spawn rates (compared to commercial growers), and yields in excess of stamets averages (cubes 4-5 wet pounds per sq. ft over 5 weeks of cropping) are easily surpassed by home cultivators using these high spawn rates even when their environments aren't as optimized as his.  And my personal experience that additional supplements to straw (flax seed SACing or SASing, corn meal SACing etc) offer little yield increase when used in conjunction with high spawn rates.

So, my conclusion is that although even the best compost (and straw in most people's cases) may be great bulk substrates, they are lacking in the nutrition needed for optimal yields and the best way to supply these missing nutrients is through colonized spawn (as opposed to SACing, SASing or other forms of supplementation)  As always in cultivation however, heed the caveat that "chasing the optimum" may not really be the best utilization of ones resources, be they time, money, space etc.

Also bear in mind, although the jury is still out in my mind, that studies have shown vast differences in potency from substrate to substrate, often with the most nutritionally deprived cultures yielding the least potent specimens.  For reference on this I offer Stamet's PMOTW, where he comments that wild specimens varry much more in potency than cultivated specimens, with cultivated specimens typically being consistently much more potent (10X variation in naturally grown specimens, 4X variation in cultivated, but both with similar maxima)  He speculates this is due to available nutrition from substrates such as grain/bran vs. unsupplemented substrates in nature such as manure or woodchips, often diluted further still through non-nutritious soil.

Now, back to pragmatism.  Look at OldTimer's straw tek.  He uses very little spawn to straw, by grinding PF cakes to powder he gets many innocuation points which allows the colonization of massive amounts of straw.  His flushes were great, and he never complained of potency.

So, I think your question doesn't have a straight answer, like so much in cultivation.  This isn't a traditional newtonian science we are dealing with, it's quantum by nature.  We rarely talk of clear cut and dries, but more often of varrying degrees of probability.  I think you are searching for the balance between the two effects of spawn, innoculation points for colonization and nutrients for supplementation.

Each person will need to decide their specific needs from their specific goals to meet both requirements (innoc points and supplementation) in the most efficient manner.

Personally, I think that both can easily be maximized by the home cultivator by using large amounts of spawn.  If using BRFV, I'd use a little more by volume than if using a grain.  Probably the same if dealing with a sawdust/bran mix.  Spawn is cheap and easy to make.  Most people should have no trouble making enough for at least a quart per sq. ft.  And on deep beds, why not use 2 qts?  Nutrient base is supplemented so you know you won't have problems from that, and the number of innoculation points will have your bulk substrate colonized before you could re-read this post. :wink: 


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I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Spawn Ratios-What matters more: mycelium or more nutrients ? [Re: mycofile]
    #1720924 - 07/16/03 10:09 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

well said, mycofile.


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OfflineThE_JafF
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Re: Spawn Ratios-What matters more: mycelium or more nutrients ? [Re: mycofile]
    #1721050 - 07/16/03 11:23 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

It is the same old jaff from way back. I am pretty sure I remembed my old password, but was unable to log in that way.. I'm not really that concerned about the number of posts, although it is nice to be remembered 8^).

I've moved on from this hobby quite some time ago as I have a family now, but the academic interest is still there, and I pop in from time to time to read a few posts, and see what the latest crazes are.. See if any of the strange ideas I posted ever amounted to anything. I did also post for a while a few years ago as Opi. Looking around a little, I am quite proud of the amount that dunking has taken hold. It wasn't really a tek or invention or anything, as commercial growers have done it for years, but I did introduce it to this community way back when. Its too bad no one ever got my corbcob tek to work out though. I had some success, but now attribute it to just a remarkably clean batch or some other strange fluke. Its a great substrate though if you do actually sterilize it. Worthy of further study.

I think there are plenty of good teks and books on doing things the standard way, and plenty of help availible for people having trouble with those things, but I have always wanted to explore different methods of doing things (the mad scientist mentality). Its not necessarily for better yeild, and its not always for making things easier, but more just to see what is possible. Frequently you notice patterns and behaviors that spark ideas that do in fact lead to higher yields, or easier methods, but you need to take the long route around and look at it from the other side to even know what to shoot for. My unfortunate problem seems to be that I know what I know extremely well but its not a consistant path of knowledge.. There are huge gaps. This very thread points one of those things out.. Not understanding the parameters of spawning ratios and how they affect yield and growth.. But then again.. I think even the experts sometimes tend to skip over or avoid this kind of lack of understanding, and simply know that it does work, so they do it. So I try to push for understanding the small aspects of things that in themselves don't necessarily add up to the big prize, but when you put a few of these little things together, maybe you arrive at a picture that is more complete. Another aspect of having gaps in your knowledge that is actually positive, and the newbies here should look at as an advantage rather than a shortfall, is that you don't make assumptions about what is possible. Some of my greatest discoveries of my life have been "in the face" of common knowledge. Hopefully I will have time to post once in a while with other wacky ideas or food for thought.

Before I end this.. I do have one more question though about this compost/spawn issue.. What do you think may be missing in the compost that grain provides? I wonder if this is the same issue with why sclerotia don't form as copiously in manure/compost. At first I suspected the size of the individual pieces of substrate, but then read that they formed well on PF mix, just smaller. Again I would have thought that manure or compost would have more nutrition than PF mix, especially considering the ratio of BRF to V, so something must be missing.. trace elements or something...

anyway..
ThE JafF


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Spawn Ratios-What matters more: mycelium or more nutrients ? [Re: ThE_JafF]
    #1721260 - 07/16/03 12:47 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Commercial supplements are moistly protein, so I?d think the answer could be: protein


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OfflineRaadt
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Re: Spawn Ratios-What matters more: mycelium or more nutrients ? [Re: Anno]
    #1721310 - 07/16/03 01:07 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Oh no! the growers have put the mushrooms on the atkins diet too!?!?? It's taking over the world!


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OfflineMarley
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Re: Spawn Ratios-What matters more: mycelium or more nutrients ? [Re: Raadt]
    #1729718 - 07/19/03 08:14 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

If you were to put a colonized myco bag in a giant compost heap outside? That would work?


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Spawn Ratios-What matters more: mycelium or more nutrients ? [Re: ThE_JafF]
    #1732138 - 07/20/03 01:21 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I did also post for a while a few years ago as Opi. Looking around a little, I am quite proud of the amount that dunking has taken hold. It wasn't really a tek or invention or anything, as commercial growers have done it for years, but I did introduce it to this community way back when.



OPI !!!!
ah yes, you're the fellow who suggested to me that i just toss my cakes in a bucket and soak them. i never heard from you again after that but i ran with the idea, published it every where to show the results and now it's become standard. could not remember your name though until just now when you mentioned it. since i never got a chance to thank you, please allow me to do so now. thank you.
i'll now be able to amend the dunk tek page to give you the credit you deserved.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Spawn Ratios-What matters more: mycelium or more nutrients ? [Re: Hippie3]
    #1735243 - 07/21/03 04:22 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Sweet, it's cool that JaFf finally gets the credit he deserves!

BTW, HighRoller at nansnook uses cob as an ingredient in his spawn, and you should see his results! Also, a dude at capt max's spore lab says he's having great success using straight cob as a spawn.

The JaFf will never be forgotten!


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PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Invisiblepussycontrol
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Re: Spawn Ratios-What matters more: mycelium or more nutrients ? [Re: mycofile]
    #1735537 - 07/21/03 05:55 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

mycofile>

cob referring to corn corb. cracked corn or?
confused yet intrested.


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: Spawn Ratios-What matters more: mycelium or more nutrients ? [Re: pussycontrol]
    #1735578 - 07/21/03 06:07 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

yeah, i've heard it does ok as spawn but fruits poorly by itself.
corn cob, ground.


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OfflineThE_JafF
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Re: Spawn Ratios-What matters more: mycelium or more nutrients ? [Re: Hippie3]
    #1741237 - 07/23/03 03:12 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

No need for the ammended credit thing.. I am just happy its working so well for everyone.. hippie3, you have done a fantastic job with and I'd like to thank you as well.

Well I guess I can disappear now for another 3 years.. heheheh just kidding.

One point though, is that I have yet to see anyone prove (to themselves most importantly) that corncob doesn't fruit, or fruits poorly.. That was something that was "ASS umed" by someone because I mentioned that I hadn't ever attempted to fruit it by itself, only used it as a spawn. Somehow that kept getting carried over, and I have seen countless people saying "It will colonise, but not fruit", who have never tried it. So I think that one is still up in the air.. People just can't resist playing operator apparantly. But I will say this.. I have never seen a substrate that colonises so fully, NOT fruit. So give it a try..


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Spawn Ratios-What matters more: mycelium or more nutrients ? [Re: ThE_JafF]
    #1743688 - 07/24/03 04:12 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I have used soaked shredded corncobs as substrate, and mushrooms fruited from it.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Spawn Ratios-What matters more: mycelium or more nutrients ? [Re: Anno]
    #1748927 - 07/25/03 06:47 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Hey JafF, If I could find the original thread, I'd update it. Well, I know I can find it in print form, in my book of "mycofiles", anyway. I was around when you first posted it, and tested it several times myself. I'm not sure what anno did different, or how WELL his fruited, but I only got one or two fruits off of several tubs of the stuff. I thought I had posted that back then....
Anyway, I would imagine that like all relatively nutrient poor bulk substrates, it depends a lot on your spawn rate (and the nutrition supplied by it).

I did use colonized cob as spawn into dung based substrates, and got plenty of fruits, although not quite as many as when using similar amounts of more nutritiuos (damn it! why can't I spell that f*cker!!) spawns (back to the whole supplementation thing again).

Don't disappear again! I've missed you. I can't think of anything right now, but there must have been several dozens of times that I thought, "I'd love to know what Jaff thinks about this"


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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