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altarego
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Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 130
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Super Spawn? Maybe. **UPDATED 1/4**
#492947 - 12/16/01 02:20 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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I apologize in advance for the excessive length of this one. I recently found this PATENT concerning a newly developed mushroom spawn formula, and intrigued, I thought I'd give it a go with PC varieties. I have long had bacterial problems with rye grain spawn, even after steeping periods and long cooking times, and liked this technique since it is designed to minimize contamination problems, and provide an equivalent (if not better) nutritional profile. The idea is a sort of ?super spawn recipe,? one that has a number of useful features: 1. High number of inoculation points (esp. useful for use as a bulk inoculant.) 2. High nutrient contents, including both readily available nutrients as well as time-release nutrients, for longevity. 3. Rapid colonization, to beat competitor organisms. 4. Ease of steam penetration, for complete sterilization. 5. Improved aeration for rapid and complete colonization. 6. Improved structure, to eliminate clumping. Here?s an excerpt with the important details:
In reply to:
SUMMARY OF THE INVENTION . . .to provide performance at least equivalent to existing mushroom spawn formulas in the time to full colonization of the substrate. . . . to provide the maximum number of points of inoculum in the mushroom substrate to reduce the time for full colonization of the substrate. . . . to provide a formulated mushroom spawn with a high content of nutrients to reduce or eliminate the need to separately add a mushroom nutrient supplement. . . . to provide supplementary nutrients to the mushroom substrate without a resultant detrimental increase in substrate temperature. . . . to provide supplementary nutrients to the mushroom substrate without the need to treat the nutrients with pesticides, denaturants, or other chemical or physical treatments to eliminate the growth of competing microorganisms. . . . to provide a formulated mushroom spawn that reduces the risks of sterilization failure and incomplete colonization of the mixtures by improving aeration of the mixtures and reducing the formation of clumps. . . .When prepared and used as disclosed herein, the mushroom spawn reduces the time to achieve full colonization of the substrate and provides unexpected increases in mushroom yield and production efficiency. . . The invention provides a fully functional formulated mushroom spawn and mushroom supplement in a single ingredient. Because the spawn as disclosed is heavily colonized with mushroom mycelium, most foreign microorganisms cannot grow well on the material. Therefore, the invention also provides a mushroom supplement containing no pesticides, denaturants, or other chemical or physical treatments to control the growth of competing microorganisms and avoids deleterious increases in the temperature of non-sterile substrates.
The patent gives a long list of various recipes (it?s worth obtaining for that reason alone) as well as a history of mushroom spawn development. This is the basic recipe: Formula 83 ______________________________________ Corn Gluten (60% protein) 30.2 g Paper Pellets 14.5 g Calcined Earth (8/16 mesh) 29.1 g Feather Meal (15.4% nitrogen) 17.4 g CaCO3 8.7 g Water 75.6 ml ______________________________________ The nitrogen content of this formula is 6.39%. Now you might ask, what are some of these ingredients and where might I find them? Well, it took me some time myself, but they are all available if you know where to look. CORN GLUTEN: This is the proteinaceous by product of the manufacture of corn syrup, and was a waste product until some smart person figured out that it was a potent and safe organic herbicide, useful on lawns and elsewhere to keep weeds down. Know why? Because fungi love the stuff, including the fungi that kill young plants by inhibiting proper root growth (it has no effect on healthy, fully grown plants). What?s cooler is that it breaks down slowly into a nice fertilizer (60% protein), so it even benefits the established plants. Turns out all these features make it an ideal slow-release mushroom nutrient source. It?s available under a number of brand names; the one I found is called ?CONCERN?. FEATHER MEAL: This is feather waste from the poultry industry. Chicken feathers are ground and heat treated, to make a high N fertilizer. This is the ?quick-release? N source. This can be found from well-stocked garden supply centers, or online. CALCINED EARTH This took awhile to locate. It is also known as Calcium Bentonite, and it is high calcium clay that has been super heated (like perlite), which expands its structure and chemical composition. It is used in industry for a number of things, including cat litter and spill absorbent, but the kind needed here is called ?Soil Conditioner? (it?s the same stuff they put on baseball fields to keep the rain from ruining the surface, and is also called ?TURFACE?). It is a granular material like course gravel, with water retention capability similar to vermiculite, but a more open structure (this is cited in the patent as one of the sources of high inoculation points.) PAPER PELLETS: I used 100% recycled paper pellet cat litter, the ?Good Mews? brand. Water and CaCO3 are available from a number of sources. So here are MY results so far, preliminary but promising. I sterilized (1h @ 15psi) 7 quart jars each of pre-soaked rye grain + 1/4 tsp. CaCo3 vs. Formula 83 (as above, multipled to fill jars 2/3), and inoculated each with a healthy strain of PC (Ecuador). Two jars of each succumbed to contamination, and were discarded (likely reason, my lazy sterile techniques), and 5 of each look good. Here are some photos after approx. 3 weeks: RYE GRAIN: ?SUPER SPAWN? Notice that the rye grain, while healthy, is not fully colonized (the mycelium is ?wispy?), while the SS is dense and thick. The rye jars required at least one additional shaking, while the SS jars were shaken only once. I thought these results were promising, hence this posting. What to do next is three-fold: 1. I will use a jar or two to inoculate a bulk substrate to see how easily it colonizes (This is usually where my bacterial problems get out of hand. Jars of rye that seem totally healthy often prove contaminated with bacteria when I use them to inoculate bulk substrates.) 2. I will also fruit one of each of these to compare yields (I don?t yet know whether the SS will fruit, but given its vigor, I think it likely.) 3. I will also try other mushroom strains and species, to see if this would make universal bulk spawn substrate (?Ultra Spawn?) Anyway, I thought I?d share this to see what others thought and to encourage further experimentation. Lobster, AE
Edited by altarego (01/04/02 01:11 PM)
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Larrythescaryrex
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: altarego]
#493138 - 12/16/01 06:06 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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what would the cost comparision be to more traditional substrates? larry
-------------------- RIP Acidic_Sloth Sunset_Mission said: "larry the scary rex verily scary when thoroughly vexed invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex mercifully massacring memories masterfully relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs" April 24th 2011
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XxMuSHRooMHeaDxX
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: altarego]
#493288 - 12/16/01 09:17 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Verry interesting , keep us posted on results.Peace
-------------------- "Put the past at rest , Live your life to please" Mushroomheads Official Site Free Spore Ring Myco-Elite All above are lie's.
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altarego
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Larry - I meant to work that one out; thanks for the reminder. I'll get back to you, gotta check my figures. - AE
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Olgualion
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: altarego]
#493364 - 12/16/01 10:33 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Sounds like a wonderful idea! IMO it would be best suited for spawning straw or bags of grain. I think it would also be a great idea for spawning woodchips for azures. I'd bet that if you try to fruit directly, yield would not be as high as with other substrates though. Oq
-------------------- Study the past... See the future...
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aka
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: altarego]
#493540 - 12/17/01 04:25 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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what made u choose that particular formula out of the lot? or is formula 83 supposedly the highest yeild, w/highest particle lvl? also, would anyone like to comment on the importance of the Nitrogen lvl in this or any other tek, as i'm curious to know if that may make any diff to the out come of the final product in potency or taste
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altarego
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: aka]
#493563 - 12/17/01 05:36 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Form. 83 was the "representative" recipe, and I suspect it was the best they found. As for N levels and thier effect on various quantities/qualities, I don't know yet, but will pay attention. - AE
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altarego
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: altarego]
#493805 - 12/17/01 01:39 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Oh, one other interesting detail: The Super Spawn jars generate a lot of heat, (they are warm to the touch) while the rye jars don't. Hmmm . . . - AE
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altarego
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Ok, I worked out the cost of this spawn recipe. It works out to around $1.25/lb, estimating on the high end (the prices of the various elements vary depending on where you get them.) Rye grain is anywhere from $0.50 to $1.50/lb. The question remains whether the SS will fruit on its own; if so, the relative value of rye vs. ss can be determined. If not, then it is only a qualitative difference it provides (faster colonization, lower contamination rates, etc.). Rye probably costs me more in the long run, given the number of containers I chuck due to contams. - AE
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Dung_Lord
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: altarego]
#493855 - 12/17/01 02:51 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Why is rye so widly used if it contamiates so much, I have never really had any luck with rye for that reason even though I sterilized it for an hour at 15-20 psi.
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altarego
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Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 130
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: Dung_Lord]
#493942 - 12/17/01 04:27 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well, despite its contamination problems, rye is a good substrate for a number of reasons: 1. It holds up nicely on cooking, so it doesn't clump or get gooey, making shaking and separation easy. 2. It has a good nutritional profile, higher in carbs and N than most other grains. 3. When cooked, it has a favorable moisture content (other grains are too dry or too wet for optimum mycelial growth.) The bacterial problem is apparently endemic to rye, and, according to my friend who works with large scale growers, bacterial counts in rye have gone up over the years, requiring double the cooking times they used to see. Another reason rye is not good is that the mycelium does not readily penetrate the outer coat, so the inside remains essentially uncolonized, leaving it for other organisms. The advantage of ss is its very open porous structure, which allows the mycelium to penetrate all of it quickly. A good way to minimize bacterial problems on grain is to soak it in hot water (pour the water hot, no need to keep it so) for 24h, then drain. It should be at the right moisture level, and have a slightly fermented smell (that's good, cause it means the spores have germinated, making them susceptible to sterilization.) In most situations rye is used as a bulk innoculate for some other fruiting substrate. It's really only cubensis growers who fruit directly from rye. - AE
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newbiegrower
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: altarego]
#494348 - 12/17/01 11:10 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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I went and read the patent because I was having trouble finding calcined earth. It seems to me according to this sentence, "The selection of the appropriate particulate material for the specialty mushroom spawn formula is based on desired final product density, particle sizes, desired number of particles (points of inoculum), cost, ease of handling and use, and other characteristics. The spawn application equipment used by most mushroom growers is designed and optimized to deliver specific weights and volumes of grain spawn. High density materials such as calcined earth can be mixed with low density materials such as vermiculite and perlite to closely approximate the density of grain spawn in the finished spawn formula," that there is no reason to prefer calcined earth to perlit or vermiculite other than the fact that it works well with the equipment currently being used by large scale growers. Thus I suggest that rather than trying to find this calcined earth perlite could be substituted. This would definitely make the ingredients easier to find since all shroomerites know where to get perlite. In addition another promising source of calcium bentonite may be your local homebrewing store. It is used in the production of wine. also homebrew stores can be good sources of sterilizing equipment. On another note I found a site that sells both corn gluten and feather meal. http://www.extremelygreen.com/
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Joshua
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: altarego]
#494380 - 12/17/01 11:34 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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You sound like you've got your shrooms all in a row. Great work. Have you noticed a difference in contamination rates when soaking rye and when not? I'm looking for a rye tech. I've looked around, all I find are brief references to the use of rye. I've purchased rolled rye. Do you think it will work as a substitute for whole rye? Joshua
-------------------- The Shroomery Bookstore Great books for inquiring minds! "Life After Death is Saprophytic!"
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aka
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: newbiegrower]
#494410 - 12/18/01 12:11 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Newbiegrower, thanks for the link!!! thats a badass site, it's got just about everything one might need for the cultivation of any type of plant and fungal life. everything!! hehe HOWEVER, to answer to your post on the Calcined Earth subject. I believe that the reason to use that as opposed to Perlite, is because of its small particle size as opposed to the chunky perlite, i know its not huge, but when u consider that the idea is to provide the maximum particles per mass of mixture that is where the choice is made. for example, if u read the entire Patent article, u would've noticed that they mentioned that the optimum formula provided for 40,000+ particles per 100 grams of mixture, where as Rye would give apprx 1500 particles per 100 grams of mixture. If u consider that SURFACE area is what gets colonized, and colonized quicker when it's all closer together, that would explain why SS fully colonized MUCH quicker than Rye. Also, Rye doesn't fully colonize on the inside of the seeds because of the protective coating. AND the average rye berry is 3-5 mm in diameter. As opposed to SS, which is based on exponentially more particles that are much smaller in diameter, and have no protective coating. To get back to the point, PERLITE is not necessarily as big as Rye berries, but i would imagine it is on the average larger than calcined earth. so.... in my untrained yet somewhat scientific eye, this still leads to the conclusion that Formula 83 is OFF DA HOOK! =] peace out
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altarego
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: aka]
#494564 - 12/18/01 05:12 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yes, Aka, that's right. Calcium Bentonite is very porous, much more so than verm or perlite (you can tell just looking at it. I thought I'd have to find a substitute myself, but it turned out my local garden center had tons of the stuff, under the brand name I mentioned earier. Also another source is from aquaculture suppliers; apparently it makes a good "soil" for underwater plant life. Oh, and another thing I forgot to mention. Feather meal smells awful, like what you'd expect a chicken slaughterhouse to smell like, esp. after pressure cooking (leaving the pc closed until cooled helps some.) That's one ingredient that you might substitute if you're having trouble finding it. - AE
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azurescen
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: Dung_Lord]
#494741 - 12/18/01 10:56 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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do you use filter disks in your jars? with out the vermiculite layer, a filter disk would definitely reduce your bacterial contams. also, as soon as the jars look colonized, give them 2 more days to really work their way through the substrate. I will be marking this thread so I can watch your results. I wonder how easy it will be to break up at the end.
-------------------- if the sign says dont pick the mushrooms, you should probably pick them
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Joshua
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: azurescen]
#494808 - 12/18/01 12:20 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think the reason for contamination is that the rye has contaminants inside of it (endospores). A filter disk would not help if contaminants are already in. Joshua
-------------------- The Shroomery Bookstore Great books for inquiring minds! "Life After Death is Saprophytic!"
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aka
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: altarego]
#494839 - 12/18/01 01:03 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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AlterEgo, and everyone else for that matter. check out that site www.extremelygreen.com they've got just about everything! with pretty good descriptions of their supplies as well. i checked out a few things, and found possible substitutes for CalciumCarbonate and mebbe vermiculite and others. there's something called Blood Feed too, with nigh Nitrogen content, which is only second best to Feather Meal and can probably be used in the same formula instead of FM. this place can prolly provide for just about any experiment u might want to run, including the growing of green plants as well as fungal :) aka
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altarego
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: aka]
#495270 - 12/18/01 08:00 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Aka - Thanks for the tip. The corn gluten they sell lists as "primarily" CG, whereas CONCERN is 100% CG. Probably not an issue, but being a control freak, I'd want to know what else is in there. Oh, and today I innoculated 6 more jars, this time with Hypsizigus Ulmarius (Elm Oyster) agar wedges. They should do great. I used less substrate per jar (the others were a little too full for my taste), multiplying the basic recipe by 10, and getting 6 (dry) cups, 1 per jar, with 125ml H20 each. When fully hydrated, the jars were 1/2 full. - AE
Edited by altarego (12/18/01 08:04 PM)
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aka
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: altarego]
#495477 - 12/18/01 11:16 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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well, i didn't actually realise that there would be any additives in a product they sold as Corn Gluten :) which basically means that i'm now lookin to find Concern brand somewhere, or other source of corn gluten. (altho it seems that Concern(R) sponsored Iowa U for this study in the 80's just for the rights to produce it right away and corner the market for pest control :) now to only track down a store that carries it or website that delivers thanks for the clarification, and if u can recommend any places of obtaining calcined earth, that would be greatly appreciated aka
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aka
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Re: Corn Gluten [Re: altarego]
#495489 - 12/18/01 11:24 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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just something i found just now to clarify what can be in the other 3.5% of that corn gluten in question :) "Corn gluten is a fine yellow powder, usually pelletized for easier application. It comes in 5 lb bags, but a 25 lb bag (blended with bone meal and potassium sulfate from the organically certified Idaho mine) will be available this fall from Necessary Organics" bone meal is also a good source of N, but i'm not sure what the potassium sulfate is good for (or bad for that matter) tell me what u think
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altarego
member
Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 130
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Re: Corn Gluten [Re: aka]
#495611 - 12/19/01 02:52 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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I would think that K2SO4 in that quantity would be fine. Its probably there as an anit-caking ingredient (it is the potassium equivalent to gypsum). The only potential problem (again, probably small) is that high levels of K are known to inhibit phosphorylation of psilocin to psilocybin, making for a less stable alkaloid profile. I don't have the numbers handy, but I think they were much higher than 3.5%. - AE - AE
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aka
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Re: Corn Gluten [Re: altarego]
#495644 - 12/19/01 04:29 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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that kinda bursts my bubble a lil bit, but i dont think it should have a high content of k2so4. the filler would mostly be Bone Meal, i'm certain of that. however, i've just spent several hours tryin to track down a good source of this stuff, and the best i could do at this time of night, was leave messages for the ppl that work there. as far as Calcined Earth, i've found mostly references to it as Diatomaceous Earth which is : It is a non-toxic, safe substance made up from crushed fossils of freshwater organisms and marine life. Crushed to a fine powder and observed through a microscope, the particles resemble bits of broken glass. Deadly to any insect and completely harmless to animals, fish, fowl or food. Most insects have a waxy outer shell covering their bodies, INSECT STOP scratches through this shell causing the insect to dehydrate leading to eventual death. INSECT STOP has a list of attractants on its label enabling you to attract a wider range of insects which may not be otherwise attracted to a specific bait already added to prepackaged products. For example, ants desire sweet baits while certain cockroaches tend to be more attracted to starch products. INSECT STOP gives you the choice. However, 90 percent of applications do not require attractants. i'm not certain that this is what i'm looking for. as u've mentioned b4, it's used in animal feed, so i'm tryin to look up places that sell feed in my area, but so far no luck. i'll resume my search some time tomorow cause its definitely time to sleep (6:30 am) thanks for continued support :) aka
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altarego
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Re: Corn Gluten [Re: aka]
#495679 - 12/19/01 05:40 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Aka - Thia is the stuff I used: http://www.schultz.com/procc.htm Try the store finder link . . . - AE
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aka
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Re: Corn Gluten [Re: altarego]
#496704 - 12/20/01 05:01 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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thanks again, i think i've found just about everything i need so far. now to just order it and make the substrate. by the time it gets delivered, there should be some spore prints ready to use for all the other different things. aka =)
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Anonymous
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Re: Corn Gluten [Re: aka]
#498574 - 12/22/01 12:12 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well how is it going?
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altarego
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Shaken not stirred [Re: ]
#498680 - 12/22/01 03:02 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Not much yet to report, except that everything is proceeding fine. The pic above was for whoever wondered about the relative ease of shaking of SS vs. rye. The answer is that it takes a bit more muscle, but it is doable (banging against a firm but cushioned object like a dense pillow is effective). I think if the jars were less full it would be easier, and I have cut back my recipe accordingly. What I find interesting/hopeful about this image is that the spawn is still white with mycelium even after shaking, unlike rye, on which the mycelium tends to get lost after breaking up. This is one of the advantages stated in the patent, that the mycelial matrix is protected within the structure of the substrate, so that it is more resilient. What this probably means is that the "leaping off" time (the time it takes an innoculant to start colonizing the new substrate) is lessened. I have two new experiments underway, one that will test this. In the first I innoculated SS with Hypsizygus Ulmarius agar wedges, which after three days are beginning to colonize happily. The second is that yesterday I innoculated three 3L bags of pasteurized straw with the jar above (and two others like it). Too early to say how quickly it will colonize, but I'll post updates soon. Lobster, AE
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newbiegrower
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: altarego]
#501954 - 12/26/01 10:57 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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my friend cooked up some SS today and I wanted to report some measurements that I took that might make this easier for others to do. I measured how much of the SS ingredients it took to make a 20X size batch which is enough for eight 1quart jars or i large spawn bag. 4 cups corn gluten 2 cups paper pellets 3 cups calcined earth 2.25 cups dried blood (couldn't find feather meal should work OK) 1.75 cups CaCO3 1.5L (~60 oz?) water This is easier than weighing every time IMHO. Also, I checked the concern brand corn gluten and in the little box on the back on the right column it said that their was potassium sulfate in it which is I believe is K2SO4 but I got a "C" in organic chemistry 3 years ago so I may be wrong.
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altarego
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Registered: 10/25/01
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: newbiegrower]
#502181 - 12/27/01 06:36 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Sounds good. I've been shooting for around 1 cup of dried ingredients/qt. jar, so that seems a little high, but it should be fine. Also, I like to divide it up dry, adding a specified amount of water to each jar, because the wet mix is kind of hard to work with (a bit like wet sand or gravelly cement). As for the dried blood: Eeuww! Yuck!! That's human blood, right? - AE
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Anonymous
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: altarego]
#502637 - 12/27/01 05:57 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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going ok? how much spawn do you use per gallon of straw?
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altarego
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Registered: 10/25/01
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: ]
#502667 - 12/27/01 06:43 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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It's going pretty good so far. I used I jar (1 qt, 3/4 full) per filter patch bag, which I filled about halfway and heat sealed (I used the bags because they were convenient, can be sealed, and I can be sure that the container is closed after innoculation). The straw was pasteurized for 1h at 160. 1 of the bags is nearly fully colonized, 1 is most of the way there and 1 is slow and probably not going to make it. No explanation for the difference except if I had to say I'd think it was my pasteurization tek and not the spawn, because I picked the healthiest, cleanest looking and smelling 3 jars to work with. I'll post pix in a few days. - AE
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newbiegrower
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: altarego]
#502797 - 12/27/01 09:44 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Is this spawn supposed to smell like cat pee? Because mine sure does I would say it's contaminated but it smelled like that the whole time I was cooking it and preparing it
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altarego
member
Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 130
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: newbiegrower]
#502889 - 12/27/01 11:46 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well if you are using feather meal it doesn't smell like cat pee, but its still bad (think hot slaughterhouse), but "pee" in general is urea, i.e. nitrogen, so I'd bet that's from your blood meal. Plug your nose, AE
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altarego
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Registered: 10/25/01
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: altarego]
#504054 - 12/29/01 11:55 AM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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FP Bags with SS and Past. Straw, after only 1 week: I said I'd post pics and here they are: 1: The best: 2: Ok, and catching up nicely with#1: 3. Not promising: Also, I have several jars each of SS with PC Cambo liquid innoculant, and P. Cyan liquid innoculant that have yet to show growth, but its only been two days. - AE
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Anonymous
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: altarego]
#510074 - 01/04/02 12:43 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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hope all is going well any new updates? potomac
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altarego
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Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 130
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: ]
#510101 - 01/04/02 01:10 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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UPDATES: The two healthy SS bags are nearly fully colonized, and I will case them soon. The Hypsizygus spawn is wispy and difficult to read, esp. with the dark color of the SS, but it appears healthy. I will use these to innoculate bulk sawdust/bran spawn soon. I also have 3 jars of Ps. Cyanescens and 4 jars of Ps. Cub var. Cambodian innoculants. Both were multispore MEA liquid cultures, and healthy, and all jars have healthy white mycelial growth. That is the state of things right now, and beacuse I will be away from home for a few weeks, don't expect updates until at least the beginning of Feb. I promise full details then. In the meantime, has anyone else done work with SS? HNY- AE
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Anonymous
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: altarego]
#517467 - 01/11/02 01:38 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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WELL is it super or what?
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altarego
member
Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 130
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: ]
#517522 - 01/11/02 02:36 PM (22 years, 8 months ago) |
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Potomac, read the post above before you ask again. - AE
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SixTango
Mycota
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 1,996
Loc: A little North of Paradis...
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: altarego]
#527027 - 01/21/02 12:25 AM (22 years, 7 months ago) |
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Noticed up this thread - others looking for "calcined earth". This can be had at any good garden supply, in couple pound boxs. Often called "Diatomite". For bulk (20-25lb bags - or bigger). They can be had @ almost any large swimming pool supply store. It is used as a water filter medium. Bulk is cheap per pound. Best O Luck ~ SixTango
-------------------- ~whiskey river rafting, hot tubbing, dirty dancing & spending money on - wild women - having fun & just gonna waste the rest~
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altarego
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Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 130
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: SixTango]
#535134 - 01/29/02 04:35 PM (22 years, 7 months ago) |
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Been away for awhile (Hawaii), and am just beginning to catch up here, but I thought I'd just let those interested in this experiment know that I'll have news real soon, after I pick up the pieces from being away from my lab for so long. As for the above post, from SixTango, calcined earth and diatomaceous earth are related but NOT the same. DE is a very fine powder, whereas, CE (which is made by super heating DE) comes in various granule sizes, and the kind wanted here has a crushed gravel appearance. See my earlier posts on how to find it, under the name "soil conditioner" or "turface". More soon, AE
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SixTango
Mycota
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 1,996
Loc: A little North of Paradis...
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: altarego] 2
#535588 - 01/30/02 02:21 AM (22 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yo, altarego; Re: your above post. Not to get technical, but your sort of WRONG and so is the Patent you refer to. Here is why. Calcined Earth is an VERY ambigious term. Calcined = heat treated. For instance, calcined gypsum means - - gypsum dehydrated by heat. Earth = any dirt, soil, sand, gravel or rock substance. So, Calcined Earth means = heat treated earth. The above patent ambigiously refers to "Calcined Earth", and goes on to describe it as " clay based material subjected to a calcination process". Then, the patent refers to products such as "Turface" & "Oil Dri" as being "calcined earth". Oil Dri is a liquid spill absorbent. (Psst, on the side they also sell Kitty Litter) I happen to know -- LOL-- a guy who's girlfreinds brothers uncles next door neighbor's raccoon --LOL-- knows the owner of one of those products & has stood on his property, watched it mined & inside his plant while it was being processed, bagged & shipped. What he mines with road graders from a dry lake bottom deposit is a combination of low grade absorbent clay & diatomacous earth mix, then heat treats it to remove any moisture content. That makes for lower shipping costs & more effective product. Diatiomacious earth is low grade Diatomite (DE). Actual pure Diatomite is a light colored soft friable rock composed of Diatoms. Check below -- if you doubt that. http://imcg.wr.usgs.gov/dmmrt/ I happen to know a -- LOL -- guy -- who knows a guy -- who's mother's brother's racoon --LOL -- owns a Diatomite deposit of 30 million tons of demonstrated reserves. I have seen mountains of it & pieces as big as cars bulldozed out of that mountain. Which is a little bigger than fine white powder, don't you think? It comes in all sizes. Whatever you want. The DE sold in garden stores is ground to powder. The best & cheapest source of Calcined Earth (CE) is actualy the cheapest CAT LITTER you can buy. Sort of looks like gray dusty small sand & pea gravel sized pieces of funky clay. Of course, you can pay a much higher price & buy it under a differing name, if you want. Up to you? After all, it's just clay based Kitty Litter. Pure Calcined Diatomite used in water and/or food grade liquid filtation -- is much better than CE. It is sterile, lighter, more absorbent, hollow & inert. Once it has absorbed it's capacity of water, it holds it better & releases it slower. It also serves as an INERT nontoxic insecticide. It works, mark my words. Mycelium love 1.5 to 2 percent DE in substrate & casing. It acts like tiny micron sized self contained drinking fountains for it. Once the DE is empty of water, the mycelium inhabit it. So, it serves as protective housing for the little white goodies. .5 to 1% DE in inoculated grain jars used to start other jars with, spread much faster than without it. Try DE. It's better -- for all the reasons stated above. Of course, clay can serve as a binder in substrate or casing. However, if you mix clay with DE, it defeats 50% of the effectiveness of DE. Because it clogs the pores in DE. Do a search on Diatoms. That will explain what DE consists of & their individual tiny micron size equal to a hollow spore. FYI, you eat DE every day. It is in all US grains & cerial products. It is placed there when harvested to stop infestations & kill larva or insects in grain storage & shipment. It doesnt get removed in the milling. If you doubt that? Check with USDA. The big chemical companies that manufactor chemical insecticides, would patent DE & sell it as an insecticide. Except you can't patent a rock substance from nature. The big chemical boys usualy buy up any little guy patent that contains DE as an insecticide. They want to keep it's insecticide properties under their thumb & sell their toxic poisions instead, because of the huge profit margins involved. They do however use it to hold some liquid chemical insecticides, because it releases that liquid very slowly. Then, the DE hangs around after the liquid is gone, killing insects all the while. Okay, I'm done jabbering. SixTango
-------------------- ~whiskey river rafting, hot tubbing, dirty dancing & spending money on - wild women - having fun & just gonna waste the rest~
Edited by SixTango (01/30/02 03:37 AM)
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altarego
member
Registered: 10/25/01
Posts: 130
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: SixTango]
#535648 - 01/30/02 05:38 AM (22 years, 7 months ago) |
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Six - Thanks for the lesson on calcined earth. You obviously have much experience with it. But not to get technical, but it is not WRONG per se to use a general (yet appropriate) term in the way that I and the patent have. As you yourself state, the term "calcined earth" itself is ambiguous, and therefore it can refer to any number of different products or forms, and the FORM of CE I have found most useful (and the FORM suggested by the patent) is called "turface", and it is still the kind I recommend. I bought kitty litter, knowing it was CE, and it absorbed water very well, and then formed a gooey sticky mush that made the substrate impossible to shake (ie, useless.) DE itself is fine, but I find turface to have a granule size better for MY purposes, more course and heavier, again facilitating shaking. You may use whatever form of CE you want. I was merely recommending one form, and will continue to do so. And if you read the posts and patent closely you will find that CE is hardly the most important ingredient (hint: corn gluten), and common vermiculite will substitute for it just fine. Later - AE
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SixTango
Mycota
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 1,996
Loc: A little North of Paradis...
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: altarego]
#535657 - 01/30/02 06:29 AM (22 years, 7 months ago) |
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AE, My buddy doesnt use the cat litter either. To many clay fines. Besides that, the racoon would take a dump in it. Check your EM here. SixTango -- out.
-------------------- ~whiskey river rafting, hot tubbing, dirty dancing & spending money on - wild women - having fun & just gonna waste the rest~
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ranonar
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Registered: 07/27/06
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Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: aka] 1
#16203272 - 05/09/12 02:28 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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It can be very interesting & valuable to go back to old threads (like this one)
I arrived here because I wanted to learn more about vermiculite broth spawn (page 141 GGMM). It appears that Amycel uses it to inoculate grain (millet) spawn. I guess it is a refinement of the classic grain to grain tek.
Things I have learned:
formula 80 of this patent looks very similar to pf substrate. I can imagine a veriety pf substrate which is very high in water an low in flour, which breaks up very easy, and which then is a better inoculum for millet or rye than grains because of the high number of mycelial fragments. Kind of liquid inoculation without the liquid.
(perhaps more important to know) the production process of agaricus mushrooms (white button, crimini, portabella) may not be a vegetarian process. Not because of the horse manure compost (which makes agaricus mushrooms unsuitable for vegans), but because of the blood- and feather meal in the vermiculite broth spawn which industry leader amycel uses to inoculate the grain spawn.
vegetarians should grow their own mushrooms.
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CheeWiz
Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 276
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Re: Super Spawn? Maybe. [Re: ranonar]
#16222640 - 05/13/12 12:52 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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Hi ranonar; it is refreshing to know that you have taken the time to look in the archives to read old post. There is a wealth of useful information in it, like the early Spawn Mate patent from Pen State among others.
Next time would you please start a new post and link to it instead of bumping an eleven year old post! I am going to give you five stars for doing your home work and study. It is just a pain to have to read page after page to get to your post/point; I want to know what your point is first (your view point has just as much validity as any ones) then do the entire supporting reading when needed.
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