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Offlinepcubmycol
flattiefisherman

Registered: 05/23/05
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A couple questions about genetics.
    #4354722 - 06/30/05 11:02 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Just have a couple questions about the genetics of any p. cubensis strain.

1. Does cloning a mushroom effect size? ex. take a mushroom from the wild that is 7" tall and has a cap 5" wide, clone it. Take a cap from the same field in the wild that is 2" tall with a cap 1" wide, clone it. Assuming that all variables in both cultures are the exact same will the larger mushroom's tissue produce myc that will fruit larger bodies than the smaller mushroom's clone?

2. Say im doing 10 PF cakes... I take a print from the one that colonized the fastest and had the best growth. Will the myc that grows when i knock up a new jar from the print have genetics that support faster growth? (or print the biggest cap... next run from that print > bigger mushrooms?)


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OfflineOnetwothree
This is MajorTom
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Registered: 02/25/05
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Re: A couple questions about genetics. [Re: pcubmycol]
    #4354793 - 06/30/05 11:38 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I believe so...

Also -- Is "cloning" a mushroom taking a print, or taking actually tissue material and continuing growth with it (w/ agar or LC)?


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Offlinepcubmycol
flattiefisherman

Registered: 05/23/05
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Re: A couple questions about genetics. [Re: Onetwothree]
    #4354818 - 06/30/05 11:46 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Cloning is a tissue clone...

I take a syringe pull the plunger back all the way and stab the stem a few times all the way through. Then press the plunger really hard into a sterile LC. (id think you'd need at least a 21g needle for this, i use a 18g)


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InvisibleEonTan
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Re: A couple questions about genetics. [Re: pcubmycol]
    #4354987 - 06/30/05 01:01 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

genetics + environment = final appearance of shroom

When multisporing you end up with 1 to many substrains in the jar/casing. Cloning the best fruit will gurantee that the gentics are the same as the Fruit you cloned. How well those fixed genetics result in a similar appearing mushroom is based on all the environmnetal parameters that direct the developement.

Size of shroom is genetic and environmental. It is dependent on the genetic makeup of the shroom, the substrate, the water content, the humidity, the amount of mycelium present at the time of fruit induction, etc... Lots of variables.

If you are asking if large mushrooms cloned result in only large mushrooms, NO they don't.

Everytime you return to spores, you get variation. If you knock up a thousand jars with spores, the majority should show good growth, some will show excellent growth, and some mediocre growth. The object is to clone fruits from the best casings, and test them in the same environmnetal parameters. After running multiple trials of multiple clones, you will find which ones are the best in your particulars.

STARTING with spores each time, you get variation, genetic and environmnetal variation.

Starting from Clones, you get variation based on the environmnetal parameters. IE, a clone grown in the exact same environment, will show the least variation.

The easiest route is to multispore as many jars as you can of each strain. Clone the best fruits from each casing in your EXACT environment. Then test each of your favorties in the same environmnet. Settle on 1 or more to keep for future use.

Or you can just shoot up jars everytime with spores, and result in some pretty damn good grows EVERYTIME. Cubensis is very easy to grow, it has a huge range of environmnetal parameters, and it is next to impossible to not select something Average. I get pretty uniform results Yield wise, from multispores. I get Mack daddy yields from vey carefully screened individual Dikaryons selected from a VERY LARGE poulation of substrains, grown in very narrow environmnetal parameters. IE test a thousand different dikaryons from a single strain in an exact environment. Keep the best five, and test them again and again, and end up with 1-2 that are EXTRA SPECIAL JUST FOR YOUR PARTICULARS.

Think of a typical poulation curve. You are going to have a whole shitload of dikaryons right smack in the middle, and a few out at either extreme. The place along that curve will vary for each Dikaryon, and the placement on the curve will be different for each dikaryon depending on the varialbe tested. Something that is exceptional at 80 F, might be mediocre at 70F. One that shows rapid growth through the substrate, might end up yielding lower then something that was slower growing. ETC>>>>>> Lots of variables can effect every Dikaryon differently. Just know that The majority are AVERAGE all around. They will perform GOOD under a wide range of variables.


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Offlinepcubmycol
flattiefisherman

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Re: A couple questions about genetics. [Re: EonTan]
    #4355028 - 06/30/05 01:18 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

that pretty much sums up my Qs. I wasnt asking if a clone of a large shroom would only produce large shrooms... Just if it would produce more large shrooms than a multispore inoculation with the same strain...

Ex.
You have a abnormally large mushie from a specific strain... you take a print from it and inoculate something (we'll say 5 PF jars)

you clone that same abnormally large mushie in LC and inoculate 5 pf jars with that LC... You have ALL the variables the exact same for all 10 cakes.

would the fruits from the cakes innoced by the LC tissue clone be generally larger than those from the cakes innoced by multispore (spores being from the same fruit that was cloned)????

from your above post, i would assume the answer is yes. They would not all nessesarily be larger, but the majority would be...

is this correct?

Eontan... your post was extremely helpful... 5 mushies for you!


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OfflineOnetwothree
This is MajorTom
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Re: A couple questions about genetics. [Re: pcubmycol]
    #4355157 - 06/30/05 01:58 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I believe the term multi-spore comes from well, exactly what it is... Multiple spores from different mushrooms within a casing.  Making a syringe out of a print isn't a multi-spore syringe...

However I could be wrong, but this is what I've been lead to believe.

When you take a print from a specific mushroom, that fruits genetics are in the spores... And when you clone a fruitbody, yes, you will get a genetic clone of the fruit, however, when you case the spawn made from that cloning material, there will be no new genetic information in all of the casing... it will ALL match the genetics of that one fruit... and as time goes on, say you clone one of those... genetic integrity begins to deteriorate, as no new "ju-ju" is added into the mix.

Say you wanted to make some spawn of a fast pinning mushroom, because you want your spawn to colonize fast or whatever you're lookin for hehe.  You take a print of that fast pinner, and put some spores onto an agar dish.  As the different spores germinate, you isolate the fasted colonizing section and put that wedge into an LC or directly into some spawn.  This way genetic integrity is held and you get the desired isolation from your fast pinning fruit. :smile:

------------------

If I'm wrong here, someone lemme know.  I'd really like to know the facts on this one.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
EDIT:
Okay I was way off with all that, my bad... but yah I thought I kind of knew, and I didn't.  I just read this post a few threads down, you should check it out it kinda anwsers both of our questions :smile:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4339518/an/0/page/0

Take care,
123


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Edited by Onetwothree (06/30/05 02:11 PM)


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Offlinepcubmycol
flattiefisherman

Registered: 05/23/05
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Re: A couple questions about genetics. [Re: Onetwothree]
    #4355215 - 06/30/05 02:11 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I am about 95% sure that you are wrong... a multispore syringe, just means a bunch of spores in a syringe.

I am 100% sure of this..
spores do not carry the exact genetics of the fruit that produces them, only a tissue clone will. Spores just carry over the same strain's genetics.


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OfflineOnetwothree
This is MajorTom
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Re: A couple questions about genetics. [Re: pcubmycol]
    #4355322 - 06/30/05 02:39 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah you're definately right.  After I read that post I linked it all became clear.  It's explained very well in there. :smile:


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Offlinepcubmycol
flattiefisherman

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Re: A couple questions about genetics. [Re: Onetwothree]
    #4355376 - 06/30/05 02:52 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

That is a good post, but it doesnt exactly answer my Q in post #5... still wondering if thats right or not..


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OfflineOnetwothree
This is MajorTom
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Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 168
Last seen: 7 years, 13 days
Re: A couple questions about genetics. [Re: pcubmycol]
    #4355459 - 06/30/05 03:18 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I'm pretty sure that statement is true. The spores would be a new spread of genetics ranging all sizes and speeds and whatnots of mushrooms, whole new variations... while a clone would be growth from just one fruits genetics... no variation or change. So yes I believe you are correct.


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InvisibleEonTan
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Re: A couple questions about genetics. [Re: pcubmycol]
    #4355495 - 06/30/05 03:31 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Clones offer known results in known conditions. Typically the size of the pin set dictates the size of the shrooms.

Spores offer unpredictability. Typically the size of the pin set dictates the size of the shrooms.

Both can yield wall to wall flushes that are very uniform, the clones just do it consistently in your particulars that you selected for.

To answer your question. NO, fruits may not be typically larger from clones then multispores. Fruit size is the last thing I would be cloning for. Clone for uniform results in a known system of culture.

Remember a clone of a large mushroom from a sporadic pin set, might yiled small mushrooms in a wall to wall flush resulting from having a single dikaryon run through the substrate and casing evenly.


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Offlinescatmanrav
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Re: A couple questions about genetics. [Re: EonTan]
    #4357848 - 07/01/05 02:33 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I wish I could give you so many more shrooms EonTan...I get the whole basic process but every time I read a post of yours on the subject, I get just a little more of it..thanks...

I think an ok example..

The big shroom to the middle (on the left casing) here is a decent shroom size for this substrate and conditions...



Another such casing, with a large shroom:



but would probably make a worse clone then a shroom from this casing might make, even though all the shrooms are smaller...



Pretty much, when you clone a mushroom, you get genetics of the mushroom, but also of the mycelium of the casing that it came off of..


--------------------
"life is like a drop of rain getting closer and closer to falling into a lake, and then when you hit the lake there is no more rain drop, only the lake."

Growing with bags, start to finish (including my new grain and substrate prep)
Anyone looking to start bulk tubs/mono tubs/shotgun hybrids? Good tubs to use..
How I do grain (old still good tips)
Turn your closet into a fruiting chamber
Casing layer colonization and overlay


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Offlinepcubmycol
flattiefisherman

Registered: 05/23/05
Posts: 747
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Last seen: 8 years, 7 months
Re: A couple questions about genetics. [Re: scatmanrav]
    #4358661 - 07/01/05 08:48 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

thanx for the help guys... now things are all really clearing up for me.


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