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Re: Is it worse being Agnostic than decisively religious or Atheist? [Re: Enlil]
    #25097397 -

Enlil said:
I have to disagree completely.  Agnosticism is not inconsistent with atheism or theism.  One can be agnostic Christian or agnostic atheist.  The belief that it's impossible to know doesn't preclude one from having faith or acknowledging that there is no evidence of god.


Seems like mental gymnastics.  I don't know, so therefore I also have this opinion or belief that directly contradicts the not knowing part.  :shrug:

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Re: Is it worse being Agnostic than decisively religious or Atheist? [Re: morrowasted] * 1
    #25097412 -

It's one thing to say that an overwhelming consensus reasonably undercuts your confidence in your hypothesis, but it's a completely different thing to say that an overwhelming consensus is evidence of the falsity of a hypothesis. you said both of these things in your post.

The former claim that consensus can undercut your confidence in a hypothesis makes complete sense to me . It is rational to consider the possibility that you have missed something that the overwhelming majority have not and that this has led you to a different, and possibly incorrect, conclusion.  The claim that consensus is evidence of the falsity of a hypothesis, however, is absurd on its face.


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Re: Is it worse being Agnostic than decisively religious or Atheist? [Re: unam sanctum]
    #25097417 -

unam sanctum said:
Seems like mental gymnastics.  I don't know, so therefore I also have this opinion or belief that directly contradicts the not knowing part.  :shrug:


You've never believed something without knowing it for sure?  Being Christian doesn't require that you know there is a god.  It only requires that you believe there is one.  Being an atheist doesn't require you to know there isn't a god.  It just requires that you believe, or perhaps conclude, that there isn't one.


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Re: Is it worse being Agnostic than decisively religious or Atheist? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #25097438 -

Quote:
The former claim that consensus can undercut your confidence in a hypothesis makes complete sense to me . It is rational to consider the possibility that you have missed something that the overwhelming majority have not and that this has led you to a different, and possibly incorrect, conclusion.  The claim that consensus is evidence of the falsity of a hypothesis, however, is absurd on its face.



I tend to agree- I don't usually use the word evidence to mean "anything that changes my level of confidence in a hypothesis"; I usually I mean something like "verifiable sensation" or "propositions that can be falsified by sensation". My point was mostly that some people might use the word evidence that way; whether or not that counts as evidence is not really the point, but that the level of consensus surrounding a given hypothesis is a relevant factor in the determination of belief systems.

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Re: Is it worse being Agnostic than decisively religious or Atheist? [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #25097456 -

Enlil said:
You've never believed something without knowing it for sure?  Being Christian doesn't require that you know there is a god.  It only requires that you believe there is one.  Being an atheist doesn't require you to know there isn't a god.  It just requires that you believe there isn't one.




yeah I understand.  I guess I always thought of agnosticism as a refuge from the smugness of theism and atheism, but I can't even have that :crankey:

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Re: Is it worse being Agnostic than decisively religious or Atheist? [Re: unam sanctum]
    #25097463 -

Enlil said:
You've never believed something without knowing it for sure?  Being Christian doesn't require that you know there is a god.  It only requires that you believe there is one.  Being an atheist doesn't require you to know there isn't a god.  It just requires that you believe there isn't one.


What if you believe there is one but you don't believe that it's possible for yourself to conceptualise it?


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Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe

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Re: Is it worse being Agnostic than decisively religious or Atheist? [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 1
    #25097528 -

unam sanctum said:
yeah I understand.  I guess I always thought of agnosticism as a refuge from the smugness of theism and atheism, but I can't even have that :crankey:


So, now we're really in agreement.  Agnosticism is the copout position when you don't really want to make waves or commit to anything.

Jokeshopbeard said:
What if you believe there is one but you don't believe that it's possible for yourself to conceptualise it?


Then you're a theist.  Anyone who truly believes in a god AND that he/she can conceptualize it is just crazy as fuck.


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Re: Is it worse being Agnostic than decisively religious or Atheist? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #25097582 -

Quote:
I'm only agreeing that certain individuals could be so arrogant as to not only believe that god does or does not for a fact exist, but also claim to not know at the same time.  That's the only cop out around here.


Neither atheism nor theism requires that someone know for sure.  That would make the terms apply to no one.  No one knows anything for sure.  Some people may believe they know something for sure, but that's just ignorance.


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Re: Is it worse being Agnostic than decisively religious or Atheist? [Re: Enlil]
    #25097639 -

Enlil said:
No one knows anything for sure.


How is that not an argument for agnosticism?

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Re: Is it worse being Agnostic than decisively religious or Atheist? [Re: unam sanctum] * 1
    #25097645 -

EXACTLY MY POINT!  Everyone is agnostic about everything, therefore it's a meaningless classification.  Saying, "I'm agnostic" is like saying "I'm a carbon based life form."  Yeah...so are the rest of us.

No one claimed that agnostics don't exist or that they are bad.  All Ecstatic and I have said is that it's a copout position that anyone can take at any time and it means nothing.  Either you've seen enough evidence to support a god theory or you haven't.  Either you believe in god based on faith or you do not.  Claiming agnosticism is just a more eloquent way of shrugging.

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Re: Is it worse being Agnostic than decisively religious or Atheist? [Re: Enlil]
    #25097657 -

Enlil said:
Agnosticism is an accommodation to all of the wackos out there that believe in mystical sky faeries so you don't hurt their feelings.


Undoubtedly this is true for at least some people who call themselves agnostic. I remember someone here giving pretty much this exact rationale for calling themselves agnostic in a recent conversation.

I don't think it applies to self-described agnostics universally though. Someone who finds the prospect of god(s) fairly plausible but isn't 100% convinced is not really in the same boat as someone who finds the prospect absurd and vanishingly unlikely, but pretends otherwise to try to be diplomatic. Yet both might call themselves agnostic.

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Re: Is it worse being Agnostic than decisively religious or Atheist? [Re: psi]
    #25097866 -

A karma ran over my dogma.:rimshot:


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