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Re: Any libertarian minded larger cities in America? [Re: Gilgamesh18] * 1
    #19013354 -

Gilgamesh18 said:
viktor said:
Can I own slaves in libertarianism?


HA no you are interfering with a citizens autonomy and violating there rights. Your rights end when you start trying to curtail the rights of those around you.


exactly. You can do whatever you want as long as you are not coercing another individual against their will. Slavery is 100% in the opposite of libertarianism


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Re: Any libertarian minded larger cities in America? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19017569 -

Gilgamesh18 said:
viktor said:
Can I own slaves in libertarianism?


HA no you are interfering with a citizens autonomy and violating there rights. Your rights end when you start trying to curtail the rights of those around you.


Were the Founding Fathers libertarians?


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: Any libertarian minded larger cities in America? [Re: viktor]
    #19018016 -

viktor said:
Gilgamesh18 said:
viktor said:
Can I own slaves in libertarianism?


HA no you are interfering with a citizens autonomy and violating there rights. Your rights end when you start trying to curtail the rights of those around you.


Were the Founding Fathers libertarians?


Applying modern morality to 18th century Europeans is a terrible comparison since so much has changed. However the likes of Jefferson and Franklin did lay the foundation for modern libertarian movements namely in the idea that markets not government edicts produce prosperity. Pretty much every libertarian I know supports gay marriage well pretty much supports any activity as long as others are not harmed. The common ground is support for a smaller government that stays out of the social and economic lives of its citizens.


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Re: Any libertarian minded larger cities in America? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19020699 -

I believe that slavery is fine under libertarianism because anyone who would submit to slavery is incapable of governing themselves and therefore to enslave them is not an act of harm but one of stewardship.

Only a socialist would disagree.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: Any libertarian minded larger cities in America? [Re: viktor]
    #19020716 -

you do realize that if you submit to slavery its not slavery right? The very definition of slave means you are forced or coerced against your will. Two things which are the central pillars of what libertarians believe the government should protect against


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Re: Any libertarian minded larger cities in America? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19020838 -

psyconaught said:
you do realize that if you submit to slavery its not slavery right? The very definition of slave means you are forced or coerced against your will. Two things which are the central pillars of what libertarians believe the government should protect against


:lolsy:  Nice spanking.  Which I had gotten there first.


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Re: Any libertarian minded larger cities in America? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19021239 -

psyconaught said:
you do realize that if you submit to slavery its not slavery right? The very definition of slave means you are forced or coerced against your will. Two things which are the central pillars of what libertarians believe the government should protect against


My point is that you cannot be forced or coerced against your will. Even if your options are slavery or death, you are entirely free to choose death.

In much the same way that you are not forced or coerced to pay taxes, because you are entirely free to choose imprisonment (or death).

Therefore, it's entirely permissible to force someone to work in a cotton field at gunpoint, because they are always free to choose calling your bluff and maybe getting shot dead.

This is TRUE libertarianism. The Founding Fathers, such as George Washington, understood this when they kept slaves on their plantations.


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Re: Any libertarian minded larger cities in America? [Re: viktor]
    #19021288 -

you have no idea what you are talking about. Putting a gun to someones head is coercing them. Threatening someone with a life in a cage if you dont give them money is coercion. A threat of violence is still forcing/coercing them. The founding fathers were not libertarians either. Some of them held some beliefs that were similar, but to attach them to the libertarian movement falsely then use their faults as argument against libertarians is intellectually dishonest. and i believe your aware of this as well.


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Re: Any libertarian minded larger cities in America? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19021369 -

Everything the government does is at the point of a gun.  Libertarians are not anarchists


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Re: Any libertarian minded larger cities in America? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #19021560 -

zappaisgod said:
Everything the government does is at the point of a gun.  Libertarians are not anarchists


agreed. i was simply making a point that his examples were not free choices


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Re: Any libertarian minded larger cities in America? [Re: viktor]
    #19022764 -

viktor said:
psyconaught said:
you do realize that if you submit to slavery its not slavery right? The very definition of slave means you are forced or coerced against your will. Two things which are the central pillars of what libertarians believe the government should protect against


My point is that you cannot be forced or coerced against your will. Even if your options are slavery or death, you are entirely free to choose death.

In much the same way that you are not forced or coerced to pay taxes, because you are entirely free to choose imprisonment (or death).

Therefore, it's entirely permissible to force someone to work in a cotton field at gunpoint, because they are always free to choose calling your bluff and maybe getting shot dead.

This is TRUE libertarianism. The Founding Fathers, such as George Washington, understood this when they kept slaves on their plantations.


Expecting 18th century humans to have a 21st century moral code is asinine.


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Re: Any libertarian minded larger cities in America? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19023101 -

Maybe people in the 24th century will look back and think libertarianism is asinine :shrug:


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: Any libertarian minded larger cities in America? [Re: viktor]
    #19023398 -

viktor said:
Maybe people in the 24th century will look back and think libertarianism is asinine :shrug:


then i would feel very bad for a society that looks down upon freedom and personal responsibility


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Re: Any libertarian minded larger cities in America? [Re: psyconaught]
    #19024068 -

They might have freedom and personal responsibility without the letting-sick-people-die-in-the-gutters sadism of 21st century libertarians.

Personally I think this combination of freedom and compassion is what's necessary.


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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Re: Any libertarian minded larger cities in America? [Re: viktor]
    #19024451 -

viktor said:
They might have freedom and personal responsibility without the letting-sick-people-die-in-the-gutters sadism of 21st century libertarians.

Personally I think this combination of freedom and compassion is what's necessary.


See what you don't understand is that life will never be fair to all citizens ever under any political system libertarianism is simply the best and most equitable way for all citizens to achieve there goals without the state fucking them over.


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Re: Any libertarian minded larger cities in America? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19026176 -

Paying a bit of tax isn't getting fucked over. Dying in the street because your fellow humans have had their natural empathy ripped out of them by a culture of greed and violence is getting fucked over.


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Re: Any libertarian minded larger cities in America? [Re: viktor]
    #19026649 -

viktor said:
Paying a bit of tax isn't getting fucked over. Dying in the street because your fellow humans have had their natural empathy ripped out of them by a culture of greed and violence is getting fucked over.


So no private charities or religious institutions exist in your world even in the US today everyone is treated no one is turned away. With total privatization of healthcare costs will drop to bad the socialists want to keep there iron grip on power so it will never happen.


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Re: Any libertarian minded larger cities in America? [Re: viktor] * 1
    #19026946 -

viktor said:
My point is that you cannot be forced or coerced against your will. Even if your options are slavery or death, you are entirely free to choose death.




This might well be the single most ridiculous post I have ever seen on the Shroomery and I have seen a fucking bunch of stupidity.  Get a fucking dictionary


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Re: Any libertarian minded larger cities in America? [Re: viktor]
    #19026956 -

viktor said:
Paying a bit of tax isn't getting fucked over. Dying in the street because your fellow humans have had their natural empathy ripped out of them by a culture of greed and violence is getting fucked over.


Let me guess how much tax you pay.  I believe the Brits have an excellent descriptor.  It is called "fuck all".  Get your fucking gun out of my face.


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Re: Any libertarian minded larger cities in America? [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #19026994 -

Gilgamesh18 said:
viktor said:
Paying a bit of tax isn't getting fucked over. Dying in the street because your fellow humans have had their natural empathy ripped out of them by a culture of greed and violence is getting fucked over.


So no private charities or religious institutions exist in your world even in the US today everyone is treated no one is turned away. With total privatization of healthcare costs will drop to bad the socialists want to keep there iron grip on power so it will never happen.


Are you aware that US healthcare is more private, more expensive and lower quality than in every Western European country?


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"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

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