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America is Great: just not right now
    #670558 -

Bad leadership with an unhealthy national agenda is threatening the status of our country as a great world leader right now.

The international community, as whole pretty much, looks down at us and falts us for so many wrongs....not signing the Kyoto Treaty. human rights violations, continued proliferation of meaningless wars, etc.

What can we do to stop this cycle? I am totally afraid that under Cheney we will desrtoy this country and everything that we, as a people, have fought for and paid for to help make us one of the greatest countries on the earth.

Where are we heading under this administration?

For one, I see us continuing these meaningless wars. If we go into Iraq, again, I fear that the end will be all too near. We have NO business there...NONE....yet, our leaders are pushing us there.......

what will you do, personally, as a citizen who is funding these meaningless wars, to STOP this insanity?


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***The Real Shroomery nigger

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: PGF]
    #670615 -

I think the problem is with our government's outright support of warlord leaders, expecially Sharon, the Middle East and surrounding area seem to be the brundt of the worlds' problem. So if protest is unified against supporting Sharon, a propagandized activist agenda can seem intelligent, since this is the easiest case to argue about, with the public, and against bush, it does'nt involve drugs, government structure, oil, it only involves how Sharon's policies are wrong. Hopefully after next friday I can have detailed information about the Israili/Palestinian conflict.

Expecially how Bush has not met with Arafat personally, it shows an arrogant ignorance, and bias, discrimination, while Bush meets with Sharon monthly, if Bush is the peaceful solution seeking person, he wants to appear to be, he needs to meet with Arafat, also,

maybe it's that Bush is afraid what Sharon will tell his Father!

Edited by nugsarenice (06/09/02 07:30 PM)

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: PGF]
    #670741 -

It is sad time indeed. I read up on foreing papers etc,and it is sad how our image has gone to hell literally. I love this country and it makes me sad that this is happening. It started with the elections. They started laughing then. Then the more our president spoke the more they laughed. Then there is the real ugly truths you bring up PGF. I don't see much option to the war on terrorist. We either take them on or they will continue to kill americans.However, this Iraq war that son wants to finish for dad is a diffeent story. And we have done other unjust things.Much of the world is starting to see the US as a Bully.It is really sad.

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: PGF]
    #670786 -

What part of destroying our remaining manufacturing industry is worth signing the kyoto pact? How do we have no business in Iraq? Are we fighting a war on terror or not? An attack on freedom anywhere is an attack on freedom everywhere. And we must protect Israel's freedom and interests in the middle east even more so than our own.

As a citizen, personally, I'm taking action. I'm working with the national republican congressional comittee to get congressman elected to office that are good pro-life republicans, that understand how important it is to protect our national interests and the freedom and soverignty if Israel.

What do you want PGF? Do you want the democrats to take control? Do you like them attacking the president on his plans to get the economy going? Do you like them blocking good judges? Do you like them attacking our president on his plans on national security and defence? Is your plan to be as obstructive as possible? Are your plans to rally and demonstrate for socialism? Is that what you're planning to do?


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: PGF]
    #670814 -

We shouldn't sign the Kyoto treaty. You should keep in mind that even the Senate wouldn't ratify that treaty. Australia declined to ratify. That treaty as it stands is unworkable in that it punishes countrys that have done well while allowing those that have not to continue polluting. While there are some things that should be done, this treaty is not the way to go. To blame Bush for failing to sign this treaty is foolish at best, dishonest at worst.

We don't belong in Iraq? So we should just let Saddam go on developing biological and chemical weapons? Then when they are smuggled into this country and used against us, I can envision your posts then. Bush knew and did nothing, is what i see you saying then.

We are the greatest country on this planet, as such we have a special duty to ensure we remain so. If accomplishing that means we do some things that some few whiners and whining countrys don't like.... too bad.

Frankly, the bad leadership ended when Bubba left office. Now there was a scumbag if I ever saw one.

Your post has inspired me to write yet again to my representitives and encourage them to support Bush and the actions he has been taking both domestically and internationally.

Too bad that asshole Jeffords turned out to be such a traitor to the people who elected him. Throwing control of the Senate to the Democrats has made it much more difficult to swing this country back in the direction it should be headed.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #670815 -

> And we must protect Israel's freedom and interests in the middle east even more so than our own.

I don't understand why do Israel's freedom and interests have priority over palestinian freedom and interests?
I think USA got attacked because it protects freedom of some while denying it to others.

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #670822 -

>We don't belong in Iraq? So we should just let Saddam go on developing biological and chemical weapons?

Why did USA support and help Saddam when he was using biolgical and chemical weapons against Iran and Kurds?
As I remember he was your best friend.

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #670826 -

Countries that have done well have contributed the most to the problems the Kyoto Protocol addresses. The protocol also recognizes the need for developing countries to, well, develop, and so it attempts to distribute the inevitable damage humans currently inflict on their environment more evenly and fairly, in the interest of that progress.

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #670827 -

This sentence wasn't quite complete. Tell me if I'm on the right track...

"I'm working with the national republican congressional comittee to get congressman elected to office that are good pro-life republicans, that understand how important it is to protect our national interests and the freedom and soverignty if Israel..."


"...would just disappear from our international agenda."
"...somehow came to represent the opposite of our foreign policy."
"...says it's okay."

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: zeronio]
    #670828 -

"I don't understand ..."

That's completly obvious.

"why do Israel's freedom and interests have priority over palestinian freedom and interests"

It's just when it comes to their(Palestinians) freedom to attempt to kill innocent men, women, and children enters the picture that the prioritys change.

"I think USA got attacked because it protects freedom of some while denying it to others. "

Such a foolish statement deserves no response.






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"That is not dead which may eternal lie..and with strange eons even death may die."
Vote Great Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: zeronio]
    #670829 -

"Why did USA support and help Saddam when he was using biolgical and chemical weapons against Iran and Kurds?"

We didn't help him kill Iranians and Kurds. I'm SURE we didn't support his use of biological and chemical weapons. Do you suggest otherwise?

"As I remember he was your best friend. "

Your memory is faulty.


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"That is not dead which may eternal lie..and with strange eons even death may die."
Vote Great Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: hongomon]
    #670833 -

"This sentence wasn't quite complete. Tell me if I'm on the right track..."

Don't know about right, but you are on the left track.
Replace the "i" in "if" with an "o", Simple Simon.
Cthulhu promises if elected you will be one of the first 10000 people it drives insane and devours.



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"That is not dead which may eternal lie..and with strange eons even death may die."
Vote Great Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Great_Cthulhu]
    #670841 -

"It's just when it comes to their freedom to attempt to kill innocent men, women, and children enters the picture that the prioritys change."

That is not true. Your government does not change priorities because of that and never did. Israel can have concentration camps, occupy neighbouring countries, etc. but US priority will never change.
Remember that numerous UN resolutions demand from Izrael that they should leave occupied teritories and these resolutions are supported by entire world except USA and Israel.

"We didn't help him kill Iranians and Kurds. I'm SURE we didn't support his use of biological and chemical weapons. Do you suggest otherwise?"

Of course you are sure - It's obvious that you follow only establishment media and their propaganda.

Look here if you want to see the other side of truth:
http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/articles/z9804-rogue.html

Here is a quote from Noam Chomsky:
At the time, the "threats to our interests" could not be laid at Iraq?s door either. Saddam was then a favored friend and trading partner. His status changed only a few months later, when he misinterpreted U.S. willingness to allow him to modify the border with Kuwait by force as authorization to take the country over?or from the perspective of the Bush administration, to duplicate what the U.S. had just done in Panama. At a high-level meeting immediately after Saddam?s invasion of Kuwait, President Bush articulated the basic problem: "My worry about the Saudis is that they?re...going to bug out at the last minute and accept a puppet regime in Kuwait." Chair of the Joint Chiefs Colin Powell posed the problem sharply: "The next few days Iraq will withdraw," putting "his puppet in" and "Everyone in the Arab world will be happy."


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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: zeronio]
    #670845 -

"That is not true. Your government does not change priorities because of that and never did. Israel can have concentration camps, occupy neighbouring countries, etc. but US priority will never change.
Remember that numerous UN resolutions demand from Izrael that they should leave occupied teritories and these resolutions are supported by entire world except USA and Israel."

You didn't notice the little edit I did...look again. With "their" I am refering to Palestinians not Israel. Israel may have prisons but they do not have concentration camps. Israel occupied those "neighboring countries" because they were going to ATTACK them and personally I think they should have kept every GD bit of land they "occupied" after that little war.

"Of course you are sure - It's obvious that you follow only establishment media and their propaganda.

Look here if you want to see the other side of truth:
http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/articles/z9804-rogue.html "

The other side of the truth? More like the leftist wackjob side of the truth...which is whatever he makes it to be.
It's obvious you follow only far left WACK JOB extremists liberal FOOLS. Do not quote that pyscho babble B.S. Noam Chomsky blurts out of his gaping meat hole. Not a word that comes out of him is worthy of thought. He is a leftist wack job period(.)


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"That is not dead which may eternal lie..and with strange eons even death may die."
Vote Great Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Great_Cthulhu]
    #670848 -

Have you read a Chomsky book Great Cthulthu? I still have'nt, however I am already reading about his work in linguistics, his studies proved to be the most useful in long use, compared to other linguists before, and after his old studies, (before 98), another linguist I am reading, who has published little political like, has reccomended his specific linguistic work as better then others who have critisized it. The linguist who reccomended has done linguist works from 1960.

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Great_Cthulhu]
    #670851 -

Political discussion FAQ:

Q: What do I do when I run out of arguments?
A:
- Say that your opponent is a communist and his sources are communist/leftish/extremist propaganda.
- Start bitching

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: nugsarenice]
    #670858 -

He may be a good linguist but he is a leftist wacko when it comes to political discussion. Being a good linguist doesn't make you good at politics.


--------------------
"That is not dead which may eternal lie..and with strange eons even death may die."
Vote Great Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: zeronio]
    #670879 -

Cthulhu's Political discussion FAQ for liberals:

Q: What do I do when a clear headed individual actually challenges my wacked out view of things?
A: Point him to some biased leftist material ...maybe some Chomsky.
Q: What do I do when the guy doesn't take Chomsky's wacko liberal anti-American views of the the United States seriously and doesn't want to argue with someone(Chomsky) that isn't even in the discussion?
A: Make a bad joke and tell him he's just bitching, name calling, and can't argue.

Chomsky's main argument is basically = America is bad bad bad and I don't like it. It takes little effort to shoot down his views on most subjects. I'm not going to argue about every little bit of pablem he's vomited forth over time and you decide to post. To do so would simply be a waste of time. He's just like so many other leftist/liberals. He enjoys in twisting things to support his own anti-american views and is no doubt boneheaded/unmoving even with facts shoved right in his face. Chomsky's view of events are NOT factual. They are his OPINIONS and THEORYS. Point me to true factual information if you want me to argue with you about something. Otherwise keep your meat hole shut.


--------------------
"That is not dead which may eternal lie..and with strange eons even death may die."
Vote Great Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Great_Cthulhu]
    #670942 -

"...keep your meat hole shut."

You convinced me, your arguments are too profound for me. You gave me so many proofs that I was wrong - I'm finally beginning to see the light. Thanks!

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Great_Cthulhu]
    #671154 -

Chomsky's is the bravest American I have ever seen, just because you don't want to admit the evil doings of our country does not mean we haven't done it.
First fact we complain about weapons of mass destruction in others countries (except Israel of course) but there is no other country in the world with more weapons of mass destruction like us.
Second we are the only country to ever use nuclear weapons against civilians, and we use mega amounts of chemical weapons against Vietnam, (In the name of democracy and freedom)
All the Latino American Dictators were sponsored by the US, why? because there elected candidate there were thinking of there countries interests and not ours.
Chomskys does prove you with facts but you are just in denial, wake up!


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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: zeronio]
    #671160 -

Eexuse me, the term these this days is "TERRORIST"
Same thing!


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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: LOBO]
    #671271 -

LOBO writes:

Chomsky's is the bravest American I have ever seen...

How does writing books critical of the US make one brave? And what criteria do you use to determine that Chomsky is braver than the rest of the authors publishing anti-US articles?

Chomsky is inevitably trotted out by anyone who disagrees with US policy, as if he is the ultimate authority, some sort of super guru. He is always referred to as a "brilliant" LINGUIST, as if this guarantees that his conclusions as a POLITICAL analyst are irrefutable. Not even his work in the field of linguistics is universally accepted as gospel -- he has as many detractors in the field as he does adherents. Accepting Chomsky's views on politics because he is a "brilliant" linguist is as absurd as accepting Shockley's (Nobel prize-winning physicist and inventor of the transistor) views on the superiority of the caucasian race.

Chomsky tries to legitimize his views by quoting (and misquoting, and inventing) passages from various government documents he claims to have uncovered through the Freedom of Information Act. Perhaps because his training is in the linguistic field, he is adept at misusing these quotes in various ways:

1) Quoting sections of memos authored by various low level employees as if they were official government policy.

2) Deliberately arranging and intermingling various quotes with his own conclusions in such a way that it appears the conclusions are actually part of the documents he is excerpting from. This is something he does repeatedly, and he is VERY adept at it... it takes a careful reading to detect what is going on. He is far too intelligent and accomplished a writer (he IS a linguist after all) for this to be accidental. He does it deliberately.

3) Quoting out of context, and dropping sections of the documents that don't support his conclusions. This is easy to check for yourself, since he at least DOES usually footnote his sources, many of which are available online these days (though such was not always the case at the time he wrote the book or article).

When he can't find documentation to support his stance, he rewrites history casually. For example, I have pointed out twice already in other threads in this forum his absurd assertions that the US intervention in the Dominican Republic was to overthrow a democratically elected government, when in fact the exact reverse was true. Again, this is so easily checked that I have to admire the man's gall at trying to pull it off.

...we use mega amounts of chemical weapons against Vietnam...

Agent Orange was no more a "chemical weapon" than was DDT or thalidomide. It was not designed as an anti-personnel weapon, and was not deployed as one either. Before anyone starts accusing me of supporting US involvement in the Viet Nam war, let me state that I was opposed to it, demonstrated against it, and spent a night in jail for that opposition. I am merely pointing out that the US did NOT use chemical weapons in Viet Nam.

All the Latino American Dictators were sponsored by the US, why?

ALL? Bullshit. Most rose to power with no help from outside powers at all, and many were sponsored by the USSR.

Chomskys does prove you with facts...

SOME facts, yes. All accomplished propagandists recognize that it is easier to sell an agenda when it contains dollops of truth.

pinky



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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: LOBO]
    #671431 -

"Chomskys does prove you with facts but you are just in denial, wake up!"

Just facts that he(Chomsky) wants to use and twist to his own ends as I said before. If a bit of info doesn't support his wild wacko claims he just leaves it out.
The post above me answers you adequatly about Chomsky.


--------------------
"That is not dead which may eternal lie..and with strange eons even death may die."
Vote Great Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: zeronio]
    #671434 -

"You convinced me, your arguments are too profound for me. You gave me so many proofs that I was wrong - I'm finally beginning to see the light. Thanks! "

It wasn't hard. No problem.



--------------------
"That is not dead which may eternal lie..and with strange eons even death may die."
Vote Great Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: PGF]
    #671902 -

i dunno if you like eminem, but his new album carries many political and also this-is-whats-wrong-with-the-avg-american messages. its called "the eminem show" and is convieniantly found on most file sharing networks.

from White America:
"So to the parents of America
I am the damager aimed at little Erica
To attack her character
The ring leader of the circus of worthless pawns
Sent to lead the march right up to the steps of Congress
And piss on the lawns of the whitehouse
To burn the casket and replace it with a parental advisory sticker
To spit liquor in the faces of this democracy of hipocracy
Fuck you Ms Cheney
Fuck you Tipper Gore
Fuck you with the free-este of space this divided state of embarrasment will allow me to have
Fuck You

hahaha! im just playin america, you know i love you"

from Square Dance:
"Let your hair down to the track, yeh, keep goin back (BOO!)
The boogie-monster of rap, yeh, the man's back!
With a plan to ambush this bush administration
Moosh the senate's facin', push this generation
O' kids to stand and fight for the right to say somethin'
You might not like, this white hot light that i'm under
No wonder i look so sunburnt,
Oh no, i won't leave no stone unturned
Oh no, i won't leave one goin' nowhere
Doh-si-soh oh! yo! ho! hello there!
Oh yeh! don't think i won't go there
Go to Beirut and do a show there
Yeh you laugh till your motherfuckin' ass gets drafted
When you're in bed here thinkin' the draft can't happen
'Til you fuck around gettin anthrax napkin
Inside a package wrapped in sarandrap wrappin'
Open the plastic, and then you stand back gaspin'
Fuckin' assassins hijackin' anthrax crashin'
All this terror, america demands action
Next thing you know, you've got uncle sam's ass askin'
To join our army, or what you do for their navy
You just a baby gettin' recruited at 18
You're on a plane now eatin' that food and that baked beans
I'm 28, they gon take you 'fore they take me
Crazy insane or insane crazy?
When i say Hussein, you say shady!
My views ain't changed to lean humane way for
Rain 2 days late, the date's today
Hey team! "

theres more good shit on there, check it out. i'm glad a "role model" for the younger gen is starting shit about this


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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Eightball]
    #672384 -

no, I do not like eminem...and I think you should kill yourself for posting the lyrics to an eminem song in reference to a political topic, in the political forum.............DO IT NOW!


this is for OTD, but....

1) have you dyed your hair blonde??

2) do you own white tank tops or plain white t-shirtsyou wear in public?

3) Do you feel like you connect with black folk on a level "we" don't understand?

4) Do you say "moms"or pops" when refering to the people who share the same DNA as you?


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***The Real Shroomery nigger

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: PGF]
    #672759 -

hahaha no! i'm not one of those stereotypical eminem white boys, hell, i didn't even really like his music till this last album came out and heard the good politcal shit he's voicing.


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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Eightball]
    #672818 -

Enima...eminem..whatever... has about as much knowledge of politics as a box of rocks.




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"That is not dead which may eternal lie..and with strange eons even death may die."
Vote Great Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Great_Cthulhu]
    #673863 -

Yes, we supported Iraq when it was a good idea to do that. It's no longer a good idea so we don't do it anymore. See how that works? Pretty simple.


What about the fact that he's been doin God knows what in his underground labaratories? What about the fact that the man hasn't an ounce of compassion for anyone including his own people?

It's easy to point at the US and say that somehow it is our fault that this man is in charge over there but it just ain't so. And as long as his regime is in place, his people will continue to starve.

It's easy to sit back as a casual observer and point at mistakes made in the past, but I'm sure whatever country you are from, Smiley, has committed its fair share of atrocities in the past.

But people crying because we have nuclear weapons and have intervened in the natural course of events that would have otherwise transpired in South/Central America conveniantly miss the major factor in those decisions...

Namely stopping the spread of USSR style communism.

Remember the Cold War?

It was um...real.

Did the Cuban missile crisis really happen or is that the result of some Right wing propaganda?



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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #674079 -

"Yes, we supported Iraq when it was a good idea to do that. It's no longer a good idea so we don't do it anymore. See how that works? Pretty simple."

Saddam was crazy from the beginning. It's just that whatever he was doing to his own people was OK as long as he was attacking Iran. The shit came out only when he became an enemy.

"It's easy to sit back as a casual observer and point at mistakes made in the past, but I'm sure whatever country you are from, Smiley, has committed its fair share of atrocities in the past. "

Even if the USA is still one of the best countries to live in, you should never trust your government! I lived in a country that has been turned into a slaughterhouse by democratically elected politicians. I was tought that our country is the best in the world and I believed it.
You should see what kind of information were released in our media before and during the war - those who looked at it from outside had much better picture. I can see that similar things are happening in so called "civilized world" now.
I don't know whether Chomsky is right or not in details but I belive that you should never trust any kind of information that has been influenced by those who are in power (all mass media). That's basically what he is saying.


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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #674117 -

Very eazy to say if you lived all your life here in the US, but I lived in South America, and had family missing , just because they didn't like the represive goverment, and yea they were no communist, but they lable them as such, comunist werering taking ove, people wanted to free them self's from abuse, just because you see it in cnn does not mean is true!


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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: PGF]
    #674397 -

Lets' put political parties aside for a minute. I love this country, but I have an honest question for those of you that think the US is not guilty of the same things we accuse others of. When the US dropped two nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians died.The US did not target a large military area.. just civilians..I know in Nagasaki alone over 80,000 died instantly. The number would rise to over 150,000. In Hiroshima over 200,000 died.My figures may be a bit off, but generally I think you get the point. Hundreds of thousands of civilians died instantly or within days of the attack. Many many died later of cancer, radiation sickness,etc... .
How dare we call the Palestinians Terrorist for killing 10 with a simple bomb. I'm not saying I in anyway shape or form support their tactics. I just want to look at reality here. If are going to use our own standards that would make the US a super super terrorist state. They kill ten....we kill 300,000+ in one shot( two actually).
The US calls Sadam a terrorist for killing his own people with chemical weapons. The US tested chemical weapons and biological agents on its own people before it was made illegal sometime in the 60's. They use diluted weapons, but in one case of the coast of San Francisco the gov sprayed some biological agent that made people sick and a few died.Just recently our government admitted to testing out chemical agents on soldiers and it took them this long to say yes we hurt you so we will pay you benefits. They hid it up to recently.......Those poor soldiers didn't even now why they were getting sick.
I understand that we were fighting a war, and the atomic attack ended that war. I understand we must defend our freedom and our nation. However, we are guilty of the same crimes we accuse others of.
The Palestinian people are also fighting a war against Israel. That is how we justify the dropping of the nuclear bombs,right. Iam an Israel supporter, but they are at war.We as a Nation used every means necessary to win, but when others do the same thing, it is a crime. So, I do see a huge double standard.We are guilty of greater crimes than them. We have the nuclear weapons ..We have the biological agents,we have the chemical agents....(we say we don't ,but I bet you we do) And we would use them if necessary to defend our country. How can we then look at the Palestinians people and say you are a terrorist state if you use a simple bomb to kill a few. We have killed hundreds of thousands with one blast.Aren't we then also guilty of the same crimes or worse.
Don't get me wrong we need to defend ourselves. Israel needs to defend itself.
It is one thing to say the US is a mightier nation.It has better weapons, and it will use them if necessary to defend it self. It is another to pretend we are somehow not guilty of larger atrocities than most of the terrorist states.
To imply that someone is unpatriotic because they see this the way I do, is not right. Iam very patriotic. I just don't understand how we are somehow more rightous than them...

Edited by artemis (06/12/02 06:52 AM)

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: zeronio]
    #674401 -

What country are you from, out of curiosity..

Italy?

"Saddam was crazy from the beginning. It's just that whatever he was doing to his own people was OK as long as he was attacking Iran. The shit came out only when he became an enemy."

I'm not going to pretend that our government is the least bit humane, especially when dealing in foriegn affairs, but please instruct me as to what recourse we now have in dealing with Iraq?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: artemis]
    #674418 -

The bloodiest of the campaigns during WWII were against Japan. We were getting killed on those little islands. This was coupled with the fact that we were in a race with Germany to build the bomb. We needed the world to see that we were very serious about having won the arms race and we also very much needed to end the war with Japan.

Your numbers are padded because we at the time did not know about the ghastly results of nuclear radiation, as proven by the fact that we continued the testing of nuclear weapons in Nevada well into the 1950's with people watching from a nearby hillside.

As far as testing biological agents on civilians, I doubt that is substantiated. Where's the lawsuit?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #674424 -

Umm...why are you directing your reply to me? I agree with most of what you said. I am no liberal. I am not one of the whinners bitching about the United States. I live here(U.S.). Your preaching to the choir.



--------------------
"That is not dead which may eternal lie..and with strange eons even death may die."
Vote Great Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Great_Cthulhu]
    #674435 -

Just a mistake


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #675517 -

Auto-Summary
The post discusses U.S. biowarfare tests conducted between 1949 and 1969, where the government secretly exposed millions of Americans to bacteria and other potentially harmful substances for biological research. These tests resulted in at least one death and multiple infections. The post emphasizes that while the U.S. government used atomic power strategically and won the war, it has been hypocritical in its actions, lying to the public and conducting similar experiments. The Libertarian Party highlights these tests as a reminder of the potential dangers of government "protection" and the need for a balance between security and civil liberties.

Senor I originally read about this in a medical journal. I don't remember the name of the journal at this point in time. I went searching on the net to see if I could find the same info I read a few years ago. I didn't find that specifc source but I did find this on the libertarian web site. Iam not a libertarian, but they have stated the facts on their website so I will use that here.Like I said I have read about this in medical journals, and just two weeks ago there were News articles about the gov testing stuff on soldiers. I completely understand why the US used its atomic power. Stratigically it was brilliant, and we won the war. My point is that we are sorta hypocritical. All I'm saying is that we have done the same things. Like I said I love this country, but I realize the government has lied to us repeatly. I do not trust our government. Many people are not aware of the facts, and they think the Us doesn't do these thigns. The fact is we do.We did, and I wouldn't doubt it if they are still doing it though it is now illegal. You will have to do further senate hearing research if you want more info. The info is not easy to find, and the gov doesn't talk about it much. I'm glad I found this because the writer makes his point better than I ever could. Ok, here's the civilian info:


Libertarian Party Press Releases

October 26, 2001

U.S. biowarfare tests remind us of the danger of government 'protection'



WASHINGTON, DC -- For Americans terrified by the anthrax crisis, here's some surprising news: This isn't the first time we've been the victims of a biological hazard.

And here's even more surprising news: The last time, it was the U.S. government that was secretly blasting American cities with bacteria, experimenting with different microbe delivery systems, and killing unsuspecting people.

In fact, the U.S. government conducted a total of 239 open-air tests of biological agents between 1949 and 1969, exposing millions of Americans from Florida to California to potentially dangerous bacteria and cancer-causing materials.

At least one person died from the top-secret tests, and at least a dozen other Americans were infected, according to the Wall Street Journal.

Details about the experiments finally came to light in 1977, after news of the tests were leaked to the press. That year, in testimony before a U.S. Senate subcommittee on health, the U.S. government admitted to:

* Blasting a bacterial fog over the entire 49-square-mile area of San Francisco from September 20-27, 1950. The bacteria, Serratia marcesens and Bacillus globiggi, was sprayed via giant hoses from U.S. Navy ships in San Francisco harbor.

While both bacteria were believed to be safe, 11 people checked into local hospitals in the weeks following the secret attacks, all with cases of pneumonia caused by Serratia marcesens. One person, a 75-year-old retired pipe fitter named Edward J. Nevin, died. Doctors were baffled by the unexplained outbreak.

* Releasing Bacillus globiggi bacteria in Washington, DC's National Airport and a Greyhound bus terminal in May 1956. At least 130 passengers -- who then traveled to 39 cities in seven states -- were exposed to the bacteria.

* Spreading Bacillus subtilis bacteria in the New York City subway in 1966. Military researchers dropped lightbulbs filled with bacteria onto subway tracks in midtown Manhattan, and then traced its spread throughout the subway system.

* Scattering zinc-cadmium-sulfide particles -- now recognized as a cancer-causing agent -- in the air over Minnesota and other Midwestern states. Researchers then tracked the fluorescent compounds as they spread more than 1,000 miles.

* Dispensing Serratia marcesens bacteria on Key West and Panama City, Florida, and releasing Bacillus globiggi along the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

At the 1977 Senate hearings, government spokespeople said the tests were conducted because of concerns that the country might come under biological attack during the Cold War.

While the U.S. government released bacteria for very different reasons than the terrorists who are today mailing deadly anthrax spores, there is one important lesson to be learned from those two decades of secret bioterrorism tests, said Libertarian Party National Director Steve Dasbach.

"As U.S. politicians pledge to track down the terrorists responsible for this current deadly outbreak of anthrax, Americans need to remember that government protection can sometimes be dangerous," he said.

"In the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s, the U.S. government's secret biological experiments infected and killed Americans in the name of protecting us from a biological attack. Last week, the U.S. House and Senate passed an anti-terrorism bill that attacks the U.S. Constitution in the name of protecting us from terrorist attacks.

"While the government may have a fundamental role to play in protecting this nation from attack, it also has a fundamental obligation to not protect us to death -- as it did when it secretly blasted San Francisco with bacteria in 1950. And the government has an equal obligation not to deprive us of fundamental civil liberties -- as it did when it publicly passed the new anti-terrorism

This info is not made up. It is true. Like I said all you have to do is some serious research into what the senate hearing were all about during that time. It would take some time, but you can prove to yourself that it is indeed and sadly true.

Edited by artemis (06/12/02 05:34 PM)

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: artemis]
    #675585 -

Here's more info on one lawsuit.
1950 Spraying San Francisco:
The first large-scale, aerosol test was conducted in San Francisco Bay in September 1950, using two species of bacteria (Bacillus globigii and Serratia marcescens). Many experiments used various Bacillus species because of their similarities to B. anthracis.3
On September 26 and 27, 1950, the U.S. Army sprayed S. marcescens from a boat off the coast. On September 29, patients at San Francisco's Stanford University Hospital began appearing with S. marcescens infections.4 Many residents came down with pneumonia-like symptoms and one died. A military, follow-up study showed that nearly every single exposed person became infected with the test organism.5
The death of Edward J. Nevin was associated with this release of S. marcescens.4 (The first lawsuit against the U.S. government was filed by his family [in 1981]. The court decided that the U.S. government could not be sued, under the Federal Tort Claims Act, since the decision to spray S. marcescens was a part of national defense planning.)3

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #675734 -

"What country are you from, out of curiosity.."

I don't care. My grandfather never left his home town but he lived in this countries during his life time:
Austria,
Italy,
Germany (occupation - 2 years),
USA jurisdicion (border zone between Italy and Yugoslavia - 2 years),
Yugoslavia,
Slovenia.
Next to come: European union

This shows that patriotizm is out of line here.

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: zeronio]
    #676152 -

Patriotism yes.
Overexposure to anti-US propaganda no.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: artemis]
    #677645 -

The problem is that we don't want to admit, that we are not the good guys like they made us believe, fighters of freedom saviors of the world etc.
I am not anti American, I am just pointing out that we are no different that any other country in the world, just remember, that the same DNA make up of a taliban fighter is the same as any American, humans are very nasty animals.
Nothing is going to change as long we all believe that we are better than some one else, no matter were you are from, nobody is right we are all wrong, as long as we justify violence.
I have little faith in the human race, if we continue like this.


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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: LOBO]
    #678763 -

LOBO, I think you're right. Hey, I remember you mentioning the glacier Perito Moreno in another post. Man, I've been to that glacier twice, it's mind-blowing. My friend and I jumped over the fence and hiked down to the shore, a stone's throw from the huge glacier face. Insane.

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: hongomon]
    #679812 -

To compare our dropping of nukes on Japan in WW2 to palestinian homocide bombers is a bit of a stretch don't you think?

Palestinian homicide bombers follow no code of war, they are using terrorist tactics and subversion in order to strike at mainly civilian targets, they don't war uniforms and melt into the crowds in order to reach their objective. In our case, we followed the generally accepted tactics of war, we struck openly and aggressively on valid targets under the pretenses of a true "war", not a cowardly guerrilla style of attack, and we accepted the risk of losing attacks to a viable defense. There is no real defense against the cowardly tactics employed by palestinian terrorists, except "preemptive" defense that is .

I'm in no way justifying the atomic drop on Japan, but lets get real here, we could have turned that entire island into an ash pile starting with Tokyo if we wanted. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were horrific events but hardly up to what we truly could have done.

And as far as the rest of the drivel posted here Cthulu answered most replies quite well for me.

I make a prediction, we will be at war with Saudia Arabia and hence almost every Muslim nation by the end of this decade. We will not stand by and let nukes and missle tech get into the hands of terrorist nations via China (and Bill Clinton, btw).

Either we seriously start a non-proliferation type treaty and dialouge NOW with China or there is going to be a shitload of trouble in the next 10 years. Stuff that makes 9-11 looks like a picnic.

Just watch.


--------------------

If I had a clever, introspective, or spiritual signature line, it would go here.

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: ramuk]
    #681052 -

homicide bombers.

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: hongomon]
    #681801 -

Yea that place is amazing did you hiked the glaciar? with spike shoes? The coolest thing I ever did well one of the coolest things anyway
Were else did you visit in Argentina?


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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: LOBO]
    #682148 -

I didn't actually get on the glacier. Next time.... I lived in a small town called Pico Truncado, about two hours inland from Comodoro Rivadavia. The best thing about Pico Truncado was its water tower, which looked like a giant mushroom. It was "El Hongo" and my friend and I revered it, especially when it stood against the amazing Patagonian sunrises and sunsets.

paz,

hongomon

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Phred]
    #691200 -

Chomsky tries to legitimize his views by quoting (and misquoting, and inventing) passages from various government documents he claims to have uncovered through the Freedom of Information Act.

Prove it. Please provide an example, oh wise one. Your severe lack of examples makes me wonder if you just parroted that Chomsky analysis from some idiotic right-winger like David Horowitz.

All the Latino American Dictators were sponsored by the US, why?

ALL? Bullshit. Most rose to power with no help from outside powers at all, and many were sponsored by the USSR.

Well, certainly the worst Latin American dictator award goest to General Pinochet, whom the United States (Kissinger and the CIA specifically) propped up and supported him and his military junta via terrorism, assassination, coup attempts, intervening and ruining democratic elections, overthrowing democratically elected leaders (Allende), mass propaganda campaigns, torture of hundreds of civilians, etc. etc. We supported him whole-heartedly. Why? One reason was that the Americans wanted to experiment with free-market capitalism ala the Chicago School/Milton Friedman in the newly created laboratory conditions of right-wing Chile. What a disaster that turned out to be - matched only in human misery by State Socalism ala USSR (which I find to be tragically ironic...)

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: iglou]
    #691283 -

Well, certainly the worst Latin American dictator award goest to General Pinochet
I know of quite a few Cubans who would disagree with you. But what do they know?


We supported him whole-heartedly. Why? One reason was that the Americans wanted to experiment with free-market capitalism ala the Chicago School/Milton Friedman in the newly created laboratory conditions of right-wing Chile.
Looks like that experiment never fully got off the ground. A dictatorship creates conditions that are in direct opposition to a free-market economy such as championed by the Chicago School and Milton Friedman. I suggest that you read "Capitalism and Freedom" by Milton and Rose Friedman to gain some insight into the man's views.

Edited by evolving (06/20/02 06:28 PM)

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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: ]
    #691767 -

I know of quite a few Cubans who would disagree with you. But what do they know?

Of course Castro and his regime has been pretty ruthless -no argument there my friend- but in a comparison of the number of those murdered/tortured per capita, Cuba pales in comparsion to right-wing Chile or other regimes propped up by the United States (63,000 Salvadorans murdered between 1979 and 1992 by right-wing, US-financed death squads for example). This is empirical fact, not political bias.

Looks like that experiment never fully got off the ground.

Sounds like you arent very familiar with what happened in Chile...so go check a search engine with the proper keywords, briefly scan through one or two documents/commentaries that might randomly come up, pick a few lines that caters to your argument, and then spit it back up on these boards to that you appear knowledgeable.

A dictatorship creates conditions that are in direct opposition to a free-market economy such as championed by the Chicago School and Milton Friedman.

Very true in and of itself. But how do you get from point A to point B when a majority of the population democratically chooses some form of socialism but the elite proponents of capitalism have another vision in mind (such as the case with Allende)? Historically the answer has been experiments like Pinochet/Chile and IMF structural adjustment programs (yet another disaster).

I suggest that you read "Capitalism and Freedom" by Milton and Rose Friedman to gain some insight into the man's views.

I already read that book.

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