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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01 Happy 23rd Shroomiversary!
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: zeronio]
    #671160 - 06/10/02 05:24 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Eexuse me, the term these this days is "TERRORIST"
Same thing!


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: LOBO]
    #671271 - 06/10/02 06:33 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

LOBO writes:

Chomsky's is the bravest American I have ever seen...

How does writing books critical of the US make one brave? And what criteria do you use to determine that Chomsky is braver than the rest of the authors publishing anti-US articles?

Chomsky is inevitably trotted out by anyone who disagrees with US policy, as if he is the ultimate authority, some sort of super guru. He is always referred to as a "brilliant" LINGUIST, as if this guarantees that his conclusions as a POLITICAL analyst are irrefutable. Not even his work in the field of linguistics is universally accepted as gospel -- he has as many detractors in the field as he does adherents. Accepting Chomsky's views on politics because he is a "brilliant" linguist is as absurd as accepting Shockley's (Nobel prize-winning physicist and inventor of the transistor) views on the superiority of the caucasian race.

Chomsky tries to legitimize his views by quoting (and misquoting, and inventing) passages from various government documents he claims to have uncovered through the Freedom of Information Act. Perhaps because his training is in the linguistic field, he is adept at misusing these quotes in various ways:

1) Quoting sections of memos authored by various low level employees as if they were official government policy.

2) Deliberately arranging and intermingling various quotes with his own conclusions in such a way that it appears the conclusions are actually part of the documents he is excerpting from. This is something he does repeatedly, and he is VERY adept at it... it takes a careful reading to detect what is going on. He is far too intelligent and accomplished a writer (he IS a linguist after all) for this to be accidental. He does it deliberately.

3) Quoting out of context, and dropping sections of the documents that don't support his conclusions. This is easy to check for yourself, since he at least DOES usually footnote his sources, many of which are available online these days (though such was not always the case at the time he wrote the book or article).

When he can't find documentation to support his stance, he rewrites history casually. For example, I have pointed out twice already in other threads in this forum his absurd assertions that the US intervention in the Dominican Republic was to overthrow a democratically elected government, when in fact the exact reverse was true. Again, this is so easily checked that I have to admire the man's gall at trying to pull it off.

...we use mega amounts of chemical weapons against Vietnam...

Agent Orange was no more a "chemical weapon" than was DDT or thalidomide. It was not designed as an anti-personnel weapon, and was not deployed as one either. Before anyone starts accusing me of supporting US involvement in the Viet Nam war, let me state that I was opposed to it, demonstrated against it, and spent a night in jail for that opposition. I am merely pointing out that the US did NOT use chemical weapons in Viet Nam.

All the Latino American Dictators were sponsored by the US, why?

ALL? Bullshit. Most rose to power with no help from outside powers at all, and many were sponsored by the USSR.

Chomskys does prove you with facts...

SOME facts, yes. All accomplished propagandists recognize that it is easier to sell an agenda when it contains dollops of truth.

pinky



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InvisibleGreat_Cthulhu
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Registered: 05/21/01
Posts: 311
Loc: R'lyeh
Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: LOBO]
    #671431 - 06/10/02 08:22 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

"Chomskys does prove you with facts but you are just in denial, wake up!"

Just facts that he(Chomsky) wants to use and twist to his own ends as I said before. If a bit of info doesn't support his wild wacko claims he just leaves it out.
The post above me answers you adequatly about Chomsky.


--------------------
"That is not dead which may eternal lie..and with strange eons even death may die."
Vote Great Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?

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InvisibleGreat_Cthulhu
enthusiast

Registered: 05/21/01
Posts: 311
Loc: R'lyeh
Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: zeronio]
    #671434 - 06/10/02 08:24 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

"You convinced me, your arguments are too profound for me. You gave me so many proofs that I was wrong - I'm finally beginning to see the light. Thanks! "

It wasn't hard. No problem.



--------------------
"That is not dead which may eternal lie..and with strange eons even death may die."
Vote Great Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?

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OfflineEightball
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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: PGF]
    #671902 - 06/10/02 01:55 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

i dunno if you like eminem, but his new album carries many political and also this-is-whats-wrong-with-the-avg-american messages. its called "the eminem show" and is convieniantly found on most file sharing networks.

from White America:
"So to the parents of America
I am the damager aimed at little Erica
To attack her character
The ring leader of the circus of worthless pawns
Sent to lead the march right up to the steps of Congress
And piss on the lawns of the whitehouse
To burn the casket and replace it with a parental advisory sticker
To spit liquor in the faces of this democracy of hipocracy
Fuck you Ms Cheney
Fuck you Tipper Gore
Fuck you with the free-este of space this divided state of embarrasment will allow me to have
Fuck You

hahaha! im just playin america, you know i love you"

from Square Dance:
"Let your hair down to the track, yeh, keep goin back (BOO!)
The boogie-monster of rap, yeh, the man's back!
With a plan to ambush this bush administration
Moosh the senate's facin', push this generation
O' kids to stand and fight for the right to say somethin'
You might not like, this white hot light that i'm under
No wonder i look so sunburnt,
Oh no, i won't leave no stone unturned
Oh no, i won't leave one goin' nowhere
Doh-si-soh oh! yo! ho! hello there!
Oh yeh! don't think i won't go there
Go to Beirut and do a show there
Yeh you laugh till your motherfuckin' ass gets drafted
When you're in bed here thinkin' the draft can't happen
'Til you fuck around gettin anthrax napkin
Inside a package wrapped in sarandrap wrappin'
Open the plastic, and then you stand back gaspin'
Fuckin' assassins hijackin' anthrax crashin'
All this terror, america demands action
Next thing you know, you've got uncle sam's ass askin'
To join our army, or what you do for their navy
You just a baby gettin' recruited at 18
You're on a plane now eatin' that food and that baked beans
I'm 28, they gon take you 'fore they take me
Crazy insane or insane crazy?
When i say Hussein, you say shady!
My views ain't changed to lean humane way for
Rain 2 days late, the date's today
Hey team! "

theres more good shit on there, check it out. i'm glad a "role model" for the younger gen is starting shit about this


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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.

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InvisiblePGF
square

Registered: 07/20/00
Posts: 8,642
Loc: Malaysia
Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Eightball]
    #672384 - 06/10/02 08:27 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

no, I do not like eminem...and I think you should kill yourself for posting the lyrics to an eminem song in reference to a political topic, in the political forum.............DO IT NOW!


this is for OTD, but....

1) have you dyed your hair blonde??

2) do you own white tank tops or plain white t-shirtsyou wear in public?

3) Do you feel like you connect with black folk on a level "we" don't understand?

4) Do you say "moms"or pops" when refering to the people who share the same DNA as you?


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***The Real Shroomery nigger

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OfflineEightball
whore consumer
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Registered: 07/21/01
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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: PGF]
    #672759 - 06/11/02 06:10 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

hahaha no! i'm not one of those stereotypical eminem white boys, hell, i didn't even really like his music till this last album came out and heard the good politcal shit he's voicing.


--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.

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InvisibleGreat_Cthulhu
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Registered: 05/21/01
Posts: 311
Loc: R'lyeh
Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Eightball]
    #672818 - 06/11/02 07:07 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Enima...eminem..whatever... has about as much knowledge of politics as a box of rocks.




--------------------
"That is not dead which may eternal lie..and with strange eons even death may die."
Vote Great Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?

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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
Snake Pit Champion
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Registered: 08/11/99
Posts: 22,678
Loc: Trump Train
Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Great_Cthulhu]
    #673863 - 06/11/02 07:34 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, we supported Iraq when it was a good idea to do that. It's no longer a good idea so we don't do it anymore. See how that works? Pretty simple.


What about the fact that he's been doin God knows what in his underground labaratories? What about the fact that the man hasn't an ounce of compassion for anyone including his own people?

It's easy to point at the US and say that somehow it is our fault that this man is in charge over there but it just ain't so. And as long as his regime is in place, his people will continue to starve.

It's easy to sit back as a casual observer and point at mistakes made in the past, but I'm sure whatever country you are from, Smiley, has committed its fair share of atrocities in the past.

But people crying because we have nuclear weapons and have intervened in the natural course of events that would have otherwise transpired in South/Central America conveniantly miss the major factor in those decisions...

Namely stopping the spread of USSR style communism.

Remember the Cold War?

It was um...real.

Did the Cuban missile crisis really happen or is that the result of some Right wing propaganda?



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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Offlinezeronio
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Registered: 10/16/01
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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #674079 - 06/12/02 12:29 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

"Yes, we supported Iraq when it was a good idea to do that. It's no longer a good idea so we don't do it anymore. See how that works? Pretty simple."

Saddam was crazy from the beginning. It's just that whatever he was doing to his own people was OK as long as he was attacking Iran. The shit came out only when he became an enemy.

"It's easy to sit back as a casual observer and point at mistakes made in the past, but I'm sure whatever country you are from, Smiley, has committed its fair share of atrocities in the past. "

Even if the USA is still one of the best countries to live in, you should never trust your government! I lived in a country that has been turned into a slaughterhouse by democratically elected politicians. I was tought that our country is the best in the world and I believed it.
You should see what kind of information were released in our media before and during the war - those who looked at it from outside had much better picture. I can see that similar things are happening in so called "civilized world" now.
I don't know whether Chomsky is right or not in details but I belive that you should never trust any kind of information that has been influenced by those who are in power (all mass media). That's basically what he is saying.


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01 Happy 23rd Shroomiversary!
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #674117 - 06/12/02 02:05 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Very eazy to say if you lived all your life here in the US, but I lived in South America, and had family missing , just because they didn't like the represive goverment, and yea they were no communist, but they lable them as such, comunist werering taking ove, people wanted to free them self's from abuse, just because you see it in cnn does not mean is true!


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Offlineartemis
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Registered: 05/26/02
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Last seen: 21 years, 2 months
Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: PGF]
    #674397 - 06/12/02 06:45 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Lets' put political parties aside for a minute. I love this country, but I have an honest question for those of you that think the US is not guilty of the same things we accuse others of. When the US dropped two nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians died.The US did not target a large military area.. just civilians..I know in Nagasaki alone over 80,000 died instantly. The number would rise to over 150,000. In Hiroshima over 200,000 died.My figures may be a bit off, but generally I think you get the point. Hundreds of thousands of civilians died instantly or within days of the attack. Many many died later of cancer, radiation sickness,etc... .
How dare we call the Palestinians Terrorist for killing 10 with a simple bomb. I'm not saying I in anyway shape or form support their tactics. I just want to look at reality here. If are going to use our own standards that would make the US a super super terrorist state. They kill ten....we kill 300,000+ in one shot( two actually).
The US calls Sadam a terrorist for killing his own people with chemical weapons. The US tested chemical weapons and biological agents on its own people before it was made illegal sometime in the 60's. They use diluted weapons, but in one case of the coast of San Francisco the gov sprayed some biological agent that made people sick and a few died.Just recently our government admitted to testing out chemical agents on soldiers and it took them this long to say yes we hurt you so we will pay you benefits. They hid it up to recently.......Those poor soldiers didn't even now why they were getting sick.
I understand that we were fighting a war, and the atomic attack ended that war. I understand we must defend our freedom and our nation. However, we are guilty of the same crimes we accuse others of.
The Palestinian people are also fighting a war against Israel. That is how we justify the dropping of the nuclear bombs,right. Iam an Israel supporter, but they are at war.We as a Nation used every means necessary to win, but when others do the same thing, it is a crime. So, I do see a huge double standard.We are guilty of greater crimes than them. We have the nuclear weapons ..We have the biological agents,we have the chemical agents....(we say we don't ,but I bet you we do) And we would use them if necessary to defend our country. How can we then look at the Palestinians people and say you are a terrorist state if you use a simple bomb to kill a few. We have killed hundreds of thousands with one blast.Aren't we then also guilty of the same crimes or worse.
Don't get me wrong we need to defend ourselves. Israel needs to defend itself.
It is one thing to say the US is a mightier nation.It has better weapons, and it will use them if necessary to defend it self. It is another to pretend we are somehow not guilty of larger atrocities than most of the terrorist states.
To imply that someone is unpatriotic because they see this the way I do, is not right. Iam very patriotic. I just don't understand how we are somehow more rightous than them...

Edited by artemis (06/12/02 06:52 AM)

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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Posts: 22,678
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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: zeronio]
    #674401 - 06/12/02 06:46 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

What country are you from, out of curiosity..

Italy?

"Saddam was crazy from the beginning. It's just that whatever he was doing to his own people was OK as long as he was attacking Iran. The shit came out only when he became an enemy."

I'm not going to pretend that our government is the least bit humane, especially when dealing in foriegn affairs, but please instruct me as to what recourse we now have in dealing with Iraq?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: artemis]
    #674418 - 06/12/02 06:57 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

The bloodiest of the campaigns during WWII were against Japan. We were getting killed on those little islands. This was coupled with the fact that we were in a race with Germany to build the bomb. We needed the world to see that we were very serious about having won the arms race and we also very much needed to end the war with Japan.

Your numbers are padded because we at the time did not know about the ghastly results of nuclear radiation, as proven by the fact that we continued the testing of nuclear weapons in Nevada well into the 1950's with people watching from a nearby hillside.

As far as testing biological agents on civilians, I doubt that is substantiated. Where's the lawsuit?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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InvisibleGreat_Cthulhu
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Registered: 05/21/01
Posts: 311
Loc: R'lyeh
Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #674424 - 06/12/02 07:00 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Umm...why are you directing your reply to me? I agree with most of what you said. I am no liberal. I am not one of the whinners bitching about the United States. I live here(U.S.). Your preaching to the choir.



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"That is not dead which may eternal lie..and with strange eons even death may die."
Vote Great Cthulhu for President. Why vote for a lesser evil?

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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Great_Cthulhu]
    #674435 - 06/12/02 07:07 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Just a mistake


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Offlineartemis
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Registered: 05/26/02
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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #675517 - 06/12/02 05:21 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Senor I originally read about this in a medical journal. I don't remember the name of the journal at this point in time. I went searching on the net to see if I could find the same info I read a few years ago. I didn't find that specifc source but I did find this on the libertarian web site. Iam not a libertarian, but they have stated the facts on their website so I will use that here.Like I said I have read about this in medical journals, and just two weeks ago there were News articles about the gov testing stuff on soldiers. I completely understand why the US used its atomic power. Stratigically it was brilliant, and we won the war. My point is that we are sorta hypocritical. All I'm saying is that we have done the same things. Like I said I love this country, but I realize the government has lied to us repeatly. I do not trust our government. Many people are not aware of the facts, and they think the Us doesn't do these thigns. The fact is we do.We did, and I wouldn't doubt it if they are still doing it though it is now illegal. You will have to do further senate hearing research if you want more info. The info is not easy to find, and the gov doesn't talk about it much. I'm glad I found this because the writer makes his point better than I ever could. Ok, here's the civilian info:


Libertarian Party Press Releases

October 26, 2001

U.S. biowarfare tests remind us of the danger of government 'protection'



WASHINGTON, DC -- For Americans terrified by the anthrax crisis, here's some surprising news: This isn't the first time we've been the victims of a biological hazard.

And here's even more surprising news: The last time, it was the U.S. government that was secretly blasting American cities with bacteria, experimenting with different microbe delivery systems, and killing unsuspecting people.

In fact, the U.S. government conducted a total of 239 open-air tests of biological agents between 1949 and 1969, exposing millions of Americans from Florida to California to potentially dangerous bacteria and cancer-causing materials.

At least one person died from the top-secret tests, and at least a dozen other Americans were infected, according to the Wall Street Journal.

Details about the experiments finally came to light in 1977, after news of the tests were leaked to the press. That year, in testimony before a U.S. Senate subcommittee on health, the U.S. government admitted to:

* Blasting a bacterial fog over the entire 49-square-mile area of San Francisco from September 20-27, 1950. The bacteria, Serratia marcesens and Bacillus globiggi, was sprayed via giant hoses from U.S. Navy ships in San Francisco harbor.

While both bacteria were believed to be safe, 11 people checked into local hospitals in the weeks following the secret attacks, all with cases of pneumonia caused by Serratia marcesens. One person, a 75-year-old retired pipe fitter named Edward J. Nevin, died. Doctors were baffled by the unexplained outbreak.

* Releasing Bacillus globiggi bacteria in Washington, DC's National Airport and a Greyhound bus terminal in May 1956. At least 130 passengers -- who then traveled to 39 cities in seven states -- were exposed to the bacteria.

* Spreading Bacillus subtilis bacteria in the New York City subway in 1966. Military researchers dropped lightbulbs filled with bacteria onto subway tracks in midtown Manhattan, and then traced its spread throughout the subway system.

* Scattering zinc-cadmium-sulfide particles -- now recognized as a cancer-causing agent -- in the air over Minnesota and other Midwestern states. Researchers then tracked the fluorescent compounds as they spread more than 1,000 miles.

* Dispensing Serratia marcesens bacteria on Key West and Panama City, Florida, and releasing Bacillus globiggi along the Pennsylvania Turnpike.

At the 1977 Senate hearings, government spokespeople said the tests were conducted because of concerns that the country might come under biological attack during the Cold War.

While the U.S. government released bacteria for very different reasons than the terrorists who are today mailing deadly anthrax spores, there is one important lesson to be learned from those two decades of secret bioterrorism tests, said Libertarian Party National Director Steve Dasbach.

"As U.S. politicians pledge to track down the terrorists responsible for this current deadly outbreak of anthrax, Americans need to remember that government protection can sometimes be dangerous," he said.

"In the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s, the U.S. government's secret biological experiments infected and killed Americans in the name of protecting us from a biological attack. Last week, the U.S. House and Senate passed an anti-terrorism bill that attacks the U.S. Constitution in the name of protecting us from terrorist attacks.

"While the government may have a fundamental role to play in protecting this nation from attack, it also has a fundamental obligation to not protect us to death -- as it did when it secretly blasted San Francisco with bacteria in 1950. And the government has an equal obligation not to deprive us of fundamental civil liberties -- as it did when it publicly passed the new anti-terrorism

This info is not made up. It is true. Like I said all you have to do is some serious research into what the senate hearing were all about during that time. It would take some time, but you can prove to yourself that it is indeed and sadly true.

Edited by artemis (06/12/02 05:34 PM)

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Offlineartemis
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Registered: 05/26/02
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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: artemis]
    #675585 - 06/12/02 06:08 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Here's more info on one lawsuit.
1950 Spraying San Francisco:
The first large-scale, aerosol test was conducted in San Francisco Bay in September 1950, using two species of bacteria (Bacillus globigii and Serratia marcescens). Many experiments used various Bacillus species because of their similarities to B. anthracis.3
On September 26 and 27, 1950, the U.S. Army sprayed S. marcescens from a boat off the coast. On September 29, patients at San Francisco's Stanford University Hospital began appearing with S. marcescens infections.4 Many residents came down with pneumonia-like symptoms and one died. A military, follow-up study showed that nearly every single exposed person became infected with the test organism.5
The death of Edward J. Nevin was associated with this release of S. marcescens.4 (The first lawsuit against the U.S. government was filed by his family [in 1981]. The court decided that the U.S. government could not be sued, under the Federal Tort Claims Act, since the decision to spray S. marcescens was a part of national defense planning.)3

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Offlinezeronio
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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: Senor_Doobie]
    #675734 - 06/12/02 07:58 PM (21 years, 9 months ago)

"What country are you from, out of curiosity.."

I don't care. My grandfather never left his home town but he lived in this countries during his life time:
Austria,
Italy,
Germany (occupation - 2 years),
USA jurisdicion (border zone between Italy and Yugoslavia - 2 years),
Yugoslavia,
Slovenia.
Next to come: European union

This shows that patriotizm is out of line here.

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InvisibleSenor_Doobie
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Re: America is Great: just not right now [Re: zeronio]
    #676152 - 06/13/02 06:20 AM (21 years, 9 months ago)

Patriotism yes.
Overexposure to anti-US propaganda no.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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