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ChinaCat, Its getting sickening * 1
    #1773231 -

Is there any real family touring with the dead, or did they just turn the keys over to a bunch of kiddies who are driven by greed and have a "holier than thou" air to them.
Maybe I just have not had the pleasure of meeting any of them, but the ones I did meet left a bad taste and really give me doubts about the future of any type of movement (which for the life of me I would love to see happen again).
Reading the posts and from what I seen first hand it really breaks my heart. $10 for a dose, come on. If thats the family working than it has become very disfunctional. I did not think it was like that, I understand supply and demand but honestly I dont feel that should be a consideration.
Perhaps I am just old fashioned but I feel that it should be a mission not a business venture.
Sorry about the rant, it just upsets me.. I do understand about the "getting busted" factor but this all just seems to go beyond that.


--------------------
People don't want other people to get high, because if you get high, you might see the falsity of the fabric of the society we live in.

-Ken Kesey

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Drummer]
    #1773644 -

ive noticed the same thing really. Most people didnt want to have anything to do with you unless you had something they wanted....mostly money. But there were good people there. It was my frist time but after a while i got the hang of how everything works and stuff and you could tell who was cool and who wasent. I payed $10 a dose for 4 just to make sure that i would have some. But i later found a guy that gave me 8 for $40 and he dropped the 8 in the water and so he just gave us 8 more. I got offered a done of AMT for free, and some guy just smoked some pot with me for free and gave me a big ass roach. Most people were weird about there bowls and there pot. A few times i was trying to talk to people and i couldent understand what they were telling me really and stuff and they were just like go trip somewhere else. I felt like everyone was trying to pull a fast one on me or something. But in the end it was all good. There were some good people there. This girl gave me a flower and was talking about just being happy and all this cool stuff...she was really sweet. This other girl was asking me how i foundthe cid and how i knew how everything worked and i told her about chinacat and how he used to tour and lay the cid and she was amazed that i had talked to someone like that and wanted to trade her bowl for a few hits but i declined cause i had no more money and this was the only chance for me getting acid for a while, so she just got up and left. The old people were cool and most of the young people were cool but some were just not the family type.


--------------------
Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Vulture]
    #1773724 -

Somebody needs to set up "mellow zones" in the campgrounds where people are staying; some kind of sound and light blocking material surrounding the space with mood lighting and nice tapestries on the walls.

Draw in the new kids and tell them stories about the way it was and the way it should be (while they are in a more open state of mind). I think the vision has been lost because there has been no handing down of the legacy of the movement.

Somebody needs to go out and start preaching.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1773737 -

man tahts a good idea....i was so out of this world i didnt know how to react to anything or where i was or anything.....i was looking for some cool people to just sit and talk to about the dead and how it is on tour and how thing swere and should be and stuff like that. I ended up getting seperated from my friend and totally lost and when i found the car i jsut sat there on a blanket...looking around and observing. Its amazing the thing you learn just observing. Just from listening to peoples convorsations i knew everything that was going on...very cool


--------------------
Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Vulture]
    #1774162 -

I'm just curious, but why do people expect LSD manufactures / dealers to treat the substance like some kind of sacrament?

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1774185 -

Becuase to many people, it is.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1774191 -

dude come on. You have read the multiple LSD threads. It was explained well in those.


--------------------

I have experienced the "buddha palm" print :thumbdown:      :heart:Take the LSD Blotter Survey:heart:

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: OctopusDr]
    #1774434 -

there have always been ppl that are in it for the money but what needs to happen is a nation wide flood.but why they are not making it happen after 2 to 4 years is what im worried about. who knows why they havent yet but i hope they all have not decided they have done thier time and just put out less lsd

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #1774451 -

I don't get it.

LSD was made by a big pharmaceutical company, so therefore it is evil beyond Satan.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1774543 -

yea the kind of evil that turned conservative scientist into enlightend beings. like dr richard alpert into baba ram dass

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: buckwheat]
    #1774602 -

Enlightened? More like delusional.

You have it all backwards. People ridicule Christians but idealize anyone who shows a hint of Eastern mysticism.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: buckwheat]
    #1774605 -

its fucking 2003, the law of supply and demand overcomes any intent of opening minds anymore..but can you put a price on mind expansion?


--------------------
"...now waters run free, no more fish in the sea..."
1983-2004

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Cubieman420]
    #1774649 -

"Mind expansion" = pretentious euphemism for "getting high"

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1774779 -

.you just like to push peoples buttons i wont play this game with you.oh wait i just did by replying to you.

Edited by mindcandy (08/03/03 01:58 AM)

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1774798 -

Trolls aren't allowed in the pub.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1774804 -

I'm not trolling.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1774881 -

Well, if someone's only interest in psychedelics is getting fucked up, then they should be charged as much as fucking possible. If it is mind expansion / self exploration then it should be free.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1774908 -

I've been following your posts recently and I think you have brought up several good points.  Although I don't think you should totally discredit the usefulness of entheogens as a tool of inner exploration, I, too, have witnessed an immense flood of people claiming to be on the path to Samadhi through only the use of psychedelic drugs, meanwhile criticizing other belief systems because Christianity isn't "hip" anymore.

I believe that drugs are one of life's many stepping stones.  However, disregarding "mind expansion" and "enlightenment" as pretentious euphemisms seems a bit pretentious in itself because you are putting yourself in a position to determine the "worthiness" of someone else's experience.  You undermine the importance of a word by saying that it has become cliche in that it has been popularized by psychedelic idealists.  However, enlightenment, in my own opinion, is a subjective experience and the word is simply a way to communicate this experience.

The reason for enlightenment lacking a solid, objective definition could very well be because, as you say, "Resisting a definition is merely a strategy used to keep the concept seeming ineffable. If the concept seems ineffable, then it has a symbollic status of being divine."  But isn't it also possible that there is another explanation for this experience being ineffable?  I realize that you are probably just making a point, but I think that you put too much certainty in your words (which also may have been planned, considering the zealous nature of some of the Enlightenment Crusaders).

Who knows?  I do enjoy a good mindfuck though.  :nut: 


--------------------
In the end, my friend, we will all be together again.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: DiMiTriSouljah]
    #1774945 -

I was heightening the tone of my posts for effect. Thanks for the comments.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1774951 -

You do a damned fine job of playing Devil's Advocate.  :grin: 


--------------------
In the end, my friend, we will all be together again.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1774960 -

Phencyclidine said:
"Mind expansion" = pretentious euphemism for "getting high"


Bingo. Give the man a cigar.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1774972 -

I put $5 in a change machine once.

Nothing changed.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1774974 -

Baby_Hitler said:
I put $5 in a change machine once.

Nothing changed.


Give it to me and I'll make it disappear.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1774975 -

Maybe I should have used phrasing that is more neutral.

"Mind expansion" = euphemism for "altering consciousness"

Baby Hitler, nyuck nyuck.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1774979 -

No, you described it perfectly the first time.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1774985 -

I fully believe that LSD can cause people to learn life changing revelations about themselves.

Or they can just get high. It depends on the person, and how they go about it..


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1774994 -

luvdemshrooms said:
No, you described it perfectly the first time.


I like your attitude and cynicism.

"Consciousness expansion" = pretentious euphemism for "getting high"

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1775050 -

Acid is divine. It was sent by god so that man could see the error of his ways. If you can think of a substance that has a better track record of absolutely CHANGING people's outview on life, and will to live, I'd like to hear it.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1775188 -

Phencyclidine said:
"Mind expansion" = pretentious euphemism for "getting high"


"getting high" = pretentious euphemism for "getting fucked-up"

mind expansion -> getting high -> getting fucked-up

or

getting fucked-up -> getting high -> mind expansion

hmmm . . . looks lika choice

Departure

Be it sight, sound, smell, or touch,
There's something inside, that we need so much.
The sight of a touch, or the scent of a sound,
Or the strength of an oak, with roots deep in the ground.
The wonder of flowers, to be covered, and then to burst up,
Through tarmac, to the sun again, or to fly to the sun
Without burning a wing; to lie in a meadow
And hear the grass sing; to have all these things
In our memory's hoard, and to use them,
To help us, to find......

Graeme Edge

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1775367 -

luvdemshrooms said:
Phencyclidine said:
"Mind expansion" = pretentious euphemism for "getting high"


Bingo. Give the man a cigar.


"Making love" = pretentious euphemism for "porking"

Not everyone has the same motivations.





--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: ESB - Mushroom People


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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Learyfan]
    #1775374 -

I do fully believe that LSD can expand your mind, I don't soley take it for those puposes but I think that it really can expand your thought process and let you "think outside the box". My best description of what LSD did for me, is that it pulled me outside of my life and let me view everything from another standpoint, very strange...but very mind expanding. Don't get me wrong, I love to take acid with friends just to have a tripped out experience, But I truly believe that for some people a trip on some good acid can really make them think.


--------------------
"...now waters run free, no more fish in the sea..."
1983-2004

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1775382 -

Consider LSD therapy and its results- people have managed to cure allergies and change themselves through mind expansion. Never through just getting high

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Learyfan]
    #1775487 -

"Making love" = pretentious euphemism for "porking"

lol :smile:  :thumbup:

edit: learyfan, your august song of the month is a true classic!

Edited by tomatoes (08/03/03 01:24 PM)

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1775504 -

Phencyclidine said:
I'm not trolling. 


OK but lets keep it chill :smile: 


--------------------
The bus came by and I got on that's when it all began!


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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Ripple]
    #1775653 -

ram dass is definatly not delusional...try readong some of his books. I respect that man and what he has done more than almost anyone. Id like to see you go into a cave and repeat the Om mani padme Hum mantra for days on end.


--------------------
Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: ]
    #1776075 -

I think it would be a false assumption to say that taking LSD results in "mind expansion".

The way I see it is, LSD causes perceptual changes that can cause experiences that have the potential to open the mind. By an open mind, I mean a balanced mind that is more stable and generally in "better shape", if you want.

But anyone can be open minded. Not just those who drop acid.

And those who aren't as open minded as others might not gain anything from LSD...


--------------------
I'm a bipedal carbon-based pseudo-random number generator.

Demonstration: 152.


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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Meph]
    #1776078 -

yeah you have to be really open minded in the first place to experience the real magic that LSD has to offer. It just takes it to the next step.


--------------------
Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Meph]
    #1776140 -

perhaps
but the differences shown by LSD or similar things may take far, far, far longer and can potentially be far more confusing

as a side note, Ive never heard of someone getting rid of an allergy without strong psychedelic ( or other chemical ) help

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Vulture]
    #1776162 -

"open minded" is another phrase that is misused. There are alot of closed minded people who claim to be open minded.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: tomatoes]
    #1776320 -

:lol:














--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: ESB - Mushroom People


Edited by Learyfan (08/10/13 08:58 AM)

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1776359 -

To clear things up, I think the only time I ever used LSD to get high was the first time I ever took it. After that experience it was only used when guidance was needed. When the Gods left me clueless it always helped me find a comfortable answer to the problems or situations I had encountered that have troubled me. It helped wash away demons which were embedded in my subconscienceness since youth, and it helped me correct certain parts in my thinking and way of doing things which have made me a better son, friend, father, and all around human being.
I never really understood the use of it just to get high, and I suppose if I did then I would understand the reason why it is being distributed the way it is now.


--------------------
People don't want other people to get high, because if you get high, you might see the falsity of the fabric of the society we live in.

-Ken Kesey

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1776820 -

Baby_Hitler said:
"open minded" is another phrase that is misused. There are alot of closed minded people who claim to be open minded.


very true.

to be truly open minded you have to leave you mind open to anything and everything while at the same time be willing to let those things take place of other things that are in there. You have to realize that noone knows anything for sure and noone can say if one is right or wrong. So be prepared to have every aspect of every beliefe you have ever had be shattered and replaced at all times. No matter how crazy something is you need to have an open mind towards that. Most people dont realize this.


--------------------
Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Vulture]
    #1777102 -

alot of it depends on the area. in my experience, shows in the west seem to be alot better scenewise. not as many lot rats just tryin to get a buck...or trying to sell you a dose of acid for ten bucks.


--------------------
<
I have logged in this once so that I can set the "last seen" feature up.  let the faggots flow forth into OTD and have it.  Its funny how they all grew nuts after I left.  I'm not here, I'm not reading, but I urge you all to keep melting down over me.  I know, I hurt alot of people, and they deserved it.  epic win for me, epic fail for you. 

ythan, you rock dude.  i feel that my time at the shroomery was very positive and enjoyable, but this site is no longer for me. im not mad or upset or disappointed, i just want no part in a pg rated faggot festival.
<

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: HarveyWalbanger]
    #1777227 -

Quote:
HarveyWalbanger said: If you can think of a substance that has a better track record of absolutely CHANGING people's outview on life, and will to live, I'd like to hear it.


Any antidepressant currently on the market.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: ]
    #1777229 -

Morrowind said:
Consider LSD therapy and its results- people have managed to cure allergies and change themselves through mind expansion.


References for such claims?

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1777295 -

Phencyclidine said:
Quote:
HarveyWalbanger said: If you can think of a substance that has a better track record of absolutely CHANGING people's outview on life, and will to live, I'd like to hear it.


Any antidepressant currently on the market.


yea let the prozac revolution begin. as predicted on the movie return of the zombies

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Drummer]
    #1777302 -

Drummer said:
After that experience it was only used when guidance was needed. When the Gods left me clueless it always helped me find a comfortable answer to the problems or situations I had encountered that have troubled me. It helped wash away demons which were embedded in my subconscienceness since youth, and it helped me correct certain parts in my thinking


Very well put


--------------------
:shocked: *Divine Moments of Truth* :shocked:


"Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon

"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right" ~The Grateful Dead

"Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: buckwheat]
    #1777348 -

Quote:
mindcandy said: the movie return of the zombies



I could just as easily make the same implication using LSD, with one huge difference: I've never seen evidence that LSD is anywhere near being as effective at treating the symptoms of depression. Considering depression can be life threatening, that puts anti-depressants far ahead of LSD.

It's logical to believe that people could feel just as threatened (or moreso) by changes that LSD could produce than by anti-depressant drugs.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1777400 -

Some antidepressants have nasty side effects and only work for as long as you take them. LSD has the ability to make permanent changes, both positive and negative in a person.

Also it can be good for migraines and cluster headaches.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: HarveyWalbanger]
    #1777437 -

HarveyWalbanger said:
If you can think of a substance that has a better track record of absolutely CHANGING people's outview on life, and will to live, I'd like to hear it.


While not a substance, try "thinking, learning, listening, and thoughtfulness.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1778060 -

Just say goodbye to cheap acid from now on, unless a new family steps up to the plate...

Dont blame the young kids rite away. Do you know how much a sheet of fractals goes for these days?! Well, $10?? Thats beat, a friend of a friend was selling 10 strips for $40-50 We're young :smile:


--------------------
Daisy Wedding Favors

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: iloveraving]
    #1778116 -

Please don't anybody lay any of this on chinacat

He knows wtf is going on by reading your messages;

He has stated it a thousand times; he has no business anymore with acid.

Retired from the scene.

Read all the posts at the Pub and Other Drugs Discussion; there are fractals out there this year. Most people just might need to go to more than one show before they find them though;

Keep on shroomin,
GGreatOne234

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: GGreatOne234]
    #1778303 -

I completely give up on any kind of LSD scene. The Dead/Jamband scene is dying also. I have only seen one or two places this summer that are allowing travellers to sell goods so they can continue to travel with out harrassment. People are getting arrested for all kinds of shit, they are cracking down, although the music is so wonderful, it's just become another concert. I didn't feel this way at Bonnaroo but I started to notice it at Red Rocks. I could be jumping to conclusions here but I've just been overly optimistic for to long and lost any kind of faith. I tried to do my part but the only times I could of really gotten hooked up is when I had little or no money. I've seen to many really good people be burned now, I have really lost faith. The summer looked so hopefull at the beginning and I think I've lost all faith in getting anything turned around this way.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Adom]
    #1778475 -

I feel the same way as you Adom.  I'll keep going to these shows because I love the music but the scene has gone down the toilet.  It could get better but I have serious doubts.  The acid scene this summer was practically non-existant, which sucks because I had high hopes.  I bought a quarter sheet of white blotters in Joliet for $75 and it have any LSD on it.  :frown: 


--------------------

Goin' where the water tastes like wine.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Drummer] * 1
    #1778916 -

All I can say is sorry man.  In my threads I have tried to give you a glimpse of the family and how things worked. Of course this is a view from a decade ago when I was ringside. In all my threads I make it clear that I am long since retired from this buisness. This isn't just a paraniod plea to evade cops. Its the truth, or else I wouldn't be in the postion to be talking about these matters on the net. Its trully up to the younger generation. I hope that some of you take up the cause.

In other threads I have made it clear as has WR that the current behavior of the new management is not acceptable to family values.
It was believed to be in better hands. When I quit many years ago I had no doubts that this tradition would continue on as it had since before I was born. There are still decent people involved, but there's a whole new bunch of kids. Were it flows from here I don't know and have no control.

For those debating the "sacred "value of LSD. I'm not going to try and convince people of an experiance that they havn't had. There is no other drug in this world who for most of its history was sold by people not because of profit, but because they felt it could benifit all of life even though thry could lose there freedom for a long time.. To those of us who LSD(or other psychedelics) has completely changed for the better ,LSD is sacred. To those who who havn't its just another drug. But it is a drug that has created a whole sub-culture of people who embrace a different life. Not different like people who are sad then take prozac and feel happy, But different in that there whole belief,value and spiritual systems changes. We are scattered everywere. You can't throw a rock in Oregon or Nor. Cal. without hitting family.

If you want to know if LSD is sacred take 2000mcg. in the Redwood national forest(any will do, but the Redwoods rule). Then see what you view of LSD and its place in history is. :heartpump:

 


--------------------
Some rise
Some fall
Some climb
To get to Terrapin!!!

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: chinacat72]
    #1778995 -

You should not have to continually apologize for the current situation man! You have made it clear time after time that you have nothing at all to do with anything going on for many many years now!



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The bus came by and I got on that's when it all began!


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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1779496 -

Baby_Hitler said:
Some antidepressants have nasty side effects and only work for as long as you take them. LSD has the ability to make permanent changes, both positive and negative in a person.


Still, I don't think that what I said was false.  Wallbanger asked me what other substances had changed people's outlooks and will to live more than LSD.  I'm sure that antidepressants have probably saved more lives than LSD ever has.  I know that some antidepressants do have negative side effects, but so does LSD (IMO, with LSD it's all side effects anyway).  Just because Prozac doesn't make you see pretty colours and experience altered states of mind doesn't make it a lesser substance than LSD. 

In my view, hallucinations are an adverse side effect.  LSD is a medically useless chemical that makes you hallucinate.  That doesn't mean that it isn't great fun to trip your balls off on LSD.  :smirk: :thumbup:  I also happen to think that any other psychedelic drug has the same potential to be looked at as mystical as LSD.  I think some of you are taking the cultural history behind LSD and confusing it with some essential feature of LSD as a chemical.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1779515 -

Oh, and please don't confuse my words here. I don't seriously think that LSD is "evil beyond satan" (I don't believe in Satan). I'm also not saying that LSD is not mystical. If you want to consider it mystical then I consider that outside the realm of what I can evaluate. I just see no evidence to suggest that LSD is really all that special. It's interesting at best.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1779745 -

Hallucinations are an adverse side affect, however LSD directly open's part's of the brain that people dont use to perceive reality differently. As long as they remember what they learned/saw on a trip it can be every much as useful aswell as much safer than antidepressants.

It's not the chemical that's changing your brain chemistry forever, its allowing you to see thing's from a different, more balance'd (in most cases) persepctive...and depending what your thinking about and just how you perceive it...it can be very important to positively changing perspective permanently and thus "saving lives" i guess.

However! "LSD is a medically useless chemical that makes you hallucinate."

That is so so wrong, if used in the right context, where certain thought's are essentially force'd on you, and a certain controlled setting is used...LSD can essentially force a changed more positive perspective on people. Do some reading about westminister hospital...or LSD in psychotherapy...i just cant believe such a statement would even be made.


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: PDU]
    #1779834 -

If people's brain chemistry are being changed due to the LSD experience then, though LSD may not directly alter the brain chemistry, some secondary messenger is affecting the brain chemistry. If you're assuming that everything that is psychological is also chemical in nature then a psychological experience has a chemical explanation. Thus, if people's brain chemistry are being changed by LSD experiences, then LSD must have something to do with it.

I've read a lot about LSD in psychotherapy. There simply isn't a known medical use for it in that it isn't reliably effective. Believe me when I say I really believe that so far, LSD is just a medically useless chemical that causes hallucinations. I've never read anything that has suggested that LSD is an effective treatment for any known medical condition. It's possible that one day it will be found to be effective, but so far LSD has proven to be worthless in treating medical conditions.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1779853 -

Get your head out of the books and look at the effects. Answers aren't always found deep in a book.


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Cherk]
    #1779913 -

LOL. STFU. When I look at the LSD from purely "outside the books" my opinion of it is far worse than when I read about it. If I look at it from only "outside the books" then LSD is obviously medically useless street dope.

I don't evaluate the usefulness of drugs based on my subjective impressions of them. Otherwise I would simply think that LSD is for morons. Before I came to the Shroomery, everyone I'd met in real life who'd used LSD (with rare exceptions) was a complete moron and was clearly using LSD because it was cheap and fucked you up good.

I try taking a balanced approach. The problem is that there's nothing I see from "outside the books" that leads me to believe that LSD is anything other than a hallucinogen.

PS - I hate that bullshit approach people give me about trying to change my methodology. I'm allowed to evaluate things in any way I see fit. I don't think simply eating LSD tells me much. I think ignoring the books and dropping acid would be a stupid way to learn anything about it. Thanks for a stupid suggestion.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1779931 -

Ive heard of lsd being used to treat cluster headaches/migraines. NOt sure of the specifices but i deffinatly remember something on it.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1779936 -

Did I say answers are never found in books? Or did I say not always? What would it take for you to not consider acid useless. What kind of proof are you looking for? Or are you simply raising hell?


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Cherk]
    #1779956 -

To consider LSD other than medically useless I'd like to see a completely blind study comparing the effectiveness of using LSD and placebo to treat a condition.

By completely blind I mean that the doctor evaluating the effectiveness would also have to be blind. Ideally, the doctor wouldn't even know that he was evaluating a treatment for data collection purposes. It would also have to have a long term follow up.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: d33p]
    #1779959 -

Find a reference stating that LSD is currently used in medicine and my opinion will change.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1779975 -

You've probably already seen this.

http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_medical1.shtml#FlashMethod

Not exactly scientific, but informative nonetheless


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1779985 -

I don't think thats possible since LSD is looked upon as the gateway to hell because of propaganda all over the world. Perhaps if LSD had been treated differently some 40 years ago we'd have more research on the chemical.



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I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Cherk]
    #1780031 -

There's tons of research on LSD. It was tossed in the garbage bin category called "psychedelic" because it was found to have no use. AFAIK, there's more research on LSD than on any other psychedelic drug.

Anyway, that's about all I see as acceptable for showing that the substance is useful, so until then LSD has no known medical use.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780033 -

again im sorry to say, what your saying PCP (strangely enough for you)...seems very uneducated, or perhaps bias seeing as every LSD user you ever met was a moron.

I have no reason to believe you when you say that there isnt a medical use for LSD, because i know of many thing's which point in the opposite direction of your statement.

This like saying Marijuana isnt a medicine because science cant prove it. If people are getting life changing positive effect's it sure as hell does have medical use, especially when used in the proper medical context.

"the drug was first marketed to psychiatrists after the Second World War as a tool to "elicit release of repressed material." By the 1950s, reports of miracle cures started to circulate, especially from Saskatchewan, where psychiatrists claimed that up to 60 per cent of their alcoholic patients stopped boozing after one huge dose of LSD."

"LSD therapy forced patients to realize that they were utterly alone, and responsible for their fate. It packed years of psychoanalysis into a single day."

"LSD therapy enabled patients to see themselves differently, and to 'happen' in another way,"

" in academic papers, Hubbard and MacLean claimed a success rate of 80 per cent with their alcoholic patients. Whether that number could stand up to scrutiny is debatable, but their techniques certainly brought about some extraordinary conversions. Metcalfe did follow-up interviews with 15 patients - radio executives, lawyers, prostitutes - and they all told him they'd been transformed by LSD therapy. "Drunken housewives, the sherry-party ones up in the British Properties, they were the most pathetic. I saw several of those women changed completely.""

" One of the patients, Barrie Leggatt remembers he was so riddled with anxiety that he could barely hold his job as an inventory clerk. But during his LSD session, Hubbard showed him a bouquet of roses. "He said, 'Now hate them.' They withered and the petals fell off, and I started to cry. Then he said 'Love them,' and they came back brighter and even more spectacular than before. That meant a lot to me," Leggatt says at his home in Victoria. "I realized that you can make your relationships into anything you want. The way I was having trouble with people was coming from me."

"It's kind of like being reborn," he continues. "You're ready to see things anew. But little by little you keep running up against the same problems, because the outside world's the same. There was no follow-up, and that's a shame, because the experience was so good. I still think LSD's got great potential.""
web page

web page

I absolutely cannot understand how someone such as yourself can come up with the conclusion that it is medically useless, im baffled.


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: PDU]
    #1780063 -

Not true at all about the bias. Every LSD user I met in real life, with some exceptions, before coming to the Shroomery was a complete moron. I had read about scientists who were psychedelic idealists on the internet. If I'd never had exposure to the online psychedelic idealist culture I would have simply assumed that LSD is for morons, but I know that isn't true. I was just making a point that if I hadn't read about LSD, then I would have simply assumed LSD was for morons.

Please show your evidence that LSD is medically useful.

That quote about the alcoholics has been contradicted by most reports I've seen. For a comprehensive but dated look read "LSD: A Total Study." All that LSD seemed to do for alcoholics was to extend the average time before relapse occured, but there was no significant change in the proportion of relapse.

If LSD had actually forced years of psychoanalysis into one day then it would be useful. That quote can be simply tossed out the window as bullshit.

Regarding the 80 percent sucess rate, as I said above, most data I've seen directly contradicts this one report, which your quote even shows is questionable, the suggestive impressions are absolutely meaningless. They might not reflect the hard data at all. If two groups, a placebo and LSD group were treated for disorder X and both had the same cure rate, but those in the LSD group said that LSD was some kind of wonder drug that cured them, then it's clear from the evidence that their claims are totally false because LSD couldn't be distinguished from placebo. Anyway, if you can find the study I'd like to see it, but know that if it was valid then it would truly be the first ever study I've read (out of many) that concluded that LSD was sucessful in treating alcoholism.

Coming to the conclusion that LSD is medically useless is simple. LSD currently has no known medical use. It is not known to be safe and effective for any medical condition. Thus, LSD is medically useless. This could change one day, but right now, it's useless.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: PDU]
    #1780070 -

Just because the US has demonized LSD and essentially keep's furthur research with LSD from happening, doesnt mean that its useless. Just because there is no modern studies showing its potential does not mean it doesnt have any.

"Psycholytic means 'ego-loosening' and derives from the work of Busch and Johnson (1950) who initially thought that the administration of LSD and the resulting 'loosening of the mind' might enable patients to overcome blocks within psychotherapy, in the same manner as the effects of delirium and insulin shock therapy did.

Eisner and Cohen (1958) write that LSD was thought to aid five basic elements that are considered desirable in psychotherapy:


It reduces defensiveness;

Buckman (1968) argues that primitive defences, such as denial and projection, are no longer available to patients under LSD and they may experience, with enormous emotional impact, the denied aspects of their own personalities.


It reduces resistance to uncovering repressed material;

Buckman (1968) suggests that the patient has access to deeper feelings, which he and the therapist can accept, understand and integrate.


It increases the ability to accept conflictual material;


It enhances the patient-therapist relationship;

Buckman (1968) notes that regression and transference are intensified leading to the emergence of early childish or even infantile memories and fantasies, which are significantly charged with emotion. If these are bought to light in the atmosphere of a therapeutic relationship based on trust, they can provide a corrective emotional experience for the patient.


During the experience, consciousness remains intact and recall is amplified."

http://www.maps.org/research/abrahart.html#chp3

"Cauldwell (1968), in his review of LSD psychotherapy, records that most researchers reported such increased extent of abreaction, transference and memory recall. Sandison, Spencer and Whitelaw (1954) describe that repressed memories are relived with remarkable clarity, with therapeutically beneficial consequences. Eisner and Cohen (1958) suggest that the use of LSD permits a rich view of the unconscious. Not only do they suggest that varying depths are possible with increasing dosages and number of sessions, but also that the patient retains the ability to follow both their own associations as well as the interpretations of the therapist. This permits a dramatic opportunity to trace problems back to their origins. Grof (1994) argues that this approach achieved solid and permanent results because any unconscious material was 'worked through' in the accompanying psychotherapy."

Anyways...there are just too many example's to provide you with...ive provided you with lots of reading which should sway your opinion.


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GO OUTSIDE.

Edited by PDU (08/04/03 11:31 PM)

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780077 -

Maybe the problem is how you're looking at LSD.  LSD by no means will magically cure an illness but it certainly will give the patient a good perspective when dealing with their illness.  The soul needs medicine sometimes too :smile: 


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: PDU]
    #1780079 -

here's a quote from one of the links you gave me:

"Slightly less than two-thirds of the subjects did not report persisting beneficial effects. To most of these subjects, their LSD experience seems to have been similar in impact to interesting entertainment. "

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780088 -

and what do you have to say about the rest of his post?


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780093 -

Phencyclidine said:
Coming to the conclusion that LSD is medically useless is simple. LSD currently has no known medical use. It is not known to be safe and effective for any medical condition. Thus, LSD is medically useless. This could change one day, but right now, it's useless.


Gah, i guess ill agree to disagree. Those who claim to have lived better live's because of an LSD experience are obviously using LSD to its full medical potential...im not sure you can catagorize it and say it fixes all mental disorder's or anything else..it cant fit a generic mold of symptoms like prozac does. LSD is helpful on a personal basis...if the symptom's are right, and your head is messed up in a certain way...and LSD experience while practicing set and setting (be it recreationally or in a psychologist's office or a science lab) is without a doubt improving certain people's fault's/illness's/trouble's.

I suppose i could use myself as somewhat of a bad example...I took mushrooms on Canada day, smiled at my friend and said "im going to happy now" and my life has taken an unbelievably positive swing, and kicked into gear..life is good now. Without a doubt the change in perspective i experience'd was a catalyst for my change...just like with LSD.

Have you used LSD, PCP?


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Cherk]
    #1780109 -

Smoker For Peace said:
and what do you have to say about the rest of his post?


I was curious about that too.

things like " One of the patients, Barrie Leggatt remembers he was so riddled with anxiety that he could barely hold his job as an inventory clerk. But during his LSD session, Hubbard showed him a bouquet of roses. "He said, 'Now hate them.' They withered and the petals fell off, and I started to cry. Then he said 'Love them,' and they came back brighter and even more spectacular than before. That meant a lot to me," Leggatt says at his home in Victoria. "I realized that you can make your relationships into anything you want. The way I was having trouble with people was coming from me."

Thats undeniable. It has a medical use. Used in a clinical sense it improved this man's anxiety disorder's and allowed him to live a more normal functional life.

Also..in one of those link's i provide'd there was a study with a followup of patients 40 years later...check it out, that might be what your looking for.

Please dont search through the link's looking exclusively for thing's to disprove its medical use, just like with anything..LSD is good and bad depending on what the situation is, but in certain situations...many situations it is usefull. Just glance over it with an open mind.


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: PDU]
    #1780123 -

Haven't I already made it clear that when I say that LSD is medically useless I mean that it is currently not known to be medically useful. I've already stated that it's logically possible that LSD could one day be known to have medical use, but currently LSD is a useless drug. I can't call a drug useful just because one day it might be useful.

None of that sways my opinion at all. I've already read it. That link you provided talks about open doors to the unconscious. Okay, but why is that medically useful? If LSD does this, then does it does so reliably and safely?

Look at some of these quotes from the link you just provided:
"Although the effects of LSD are useful in psychotherapy, Richter argues that they are not sufficient for therapeutic change."

"Mascher's (1967) research demonstrates that there is considerable efficacy in the use of psycholytic therapy with anxiety neuroses, irritable depression and character neuroses. However in view of the considerable variance in methods and treatments applied to patients, Mascher's figures remain problematic as evidence."
IOW, 'this drug might be useful, but we need more studies, because I am not sure.' That's not enough for me to call LSD medically useful.

"Since reliance was made on one to three single large doses of LSD, the researchers felt no need to accompany this with long-term psychotherapy. Kurland et al (1971) argues that since this approach happened without long-term psychotherapy, the initial dramatic improvements seen in subjects were mostly not long lasting."

"Abuzzahab and Anderson (1971) reviewed 31 published studies, which involved 1105 patients. 18 studies used a psychedelic approach, 5 with controls. 7 studies used a psycholytic approach, 3 with controls. From their review they argue that the evidence does not support LSD's effectiveness in treating alcoholics."

"Evidence that LSD is effective in facilitating therapeutic change is demonstrated in the literature by means of therapist's case reports, claims of improvement and by accounts of the patients involved. However, when control groups are used to validate therapy with LSD, only one author claims significant success. His research however can be questioned on his selection procedures. The use of LSD to facilitate therapeutic change was not confirmed by research using positivist methods."

------------------------------------

This final quote pretty much sums up what I think:
"Clearly the studies do not meet present day methodological requirements for their validity. They do not address non-specific therapeutic issues. Consequently it is difficult to draw conclusions from them."

IOW: LSD hasn't been demonstrated to be useful.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Cherk]
    #1780127 -

Smoker, the soul, if it does exist, is outside the realm of medicine.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780144 -

I know people who had LSD trips and totally changed their lives around and became much happier people (you could totally tell) and unlike drugs like prozac, they didnt need to keep dosing. One trip improvd their lives and they are still like that.

I know others who flipped out and had bad times...and said it messed their heads up pretty bad.

The fact that people are having experience that change their outlook on life for the better means that some people are definatly benifiting from this chemical. But...like all other chemicals...its all in how you use it


--------------------
:shocked: *Divine Moments of Truth* :shocked:


"Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon

"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right" ~The Grateful Dead

"Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: PDU]
    #1780150 -

Those who've claimed to live better because of LSD have no way to objectively verify that their claim is true. Also, you can't verify that perhaps more people say that LSD had no effect on their lives, or that they say that LSD had a negative effect. Furthermore, medicine does not concern itself with helping people enjoy their lives more. Medicine treats illness. Saying that LSD is medically useful because people enjoy is like saying that reading novels is medically useful because people enjoy reading books.

I see nothing to indicate that LSD is improving people's faults or troubles. BTW, most of the time, personality traits are also not an issue that medicine addresses. I'm talking about LSD in a medical context.

Bad methodology in your example. How do you objectively know that mushrooms were more effective than placebo in improving your mood? You don't, plain and simple. Also, if you hadn't taken mushrooms that day do you have reason to believe that you would have suffered (or continued to suffer from) some kind of illness?

Yes, I have used LSD about 35 times and psiloc(yb)in containing mushrooms about 15 to 20.

BTW, that last post where I quoted and someone asked me what I thought of the rest of your post was referring to the previous post by you.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780153 -

alright alright, so according to science LSD is a joke. Fine and dandy, just like Med pot. It helps some people, that is evident...but it isnt a proven medicine, it can be useful, it can be destructive, it has possibilities. We're basically bickering over the interpretation of medical, but i actually think we're fairly close in our opinion's...and nothing either of us say is really conclusive...so as you said, it does have future possibilities within medicine.

I imagine for now, People will use it to their own advantage in their own way's and....if they're like me...will continue to believe it has positive merit's for themselves.

Good discussion anyways!


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Help on the Way]
    #1780163 -

Again, poor methodology. You don't actually know that if you'd given them a sugar pill that day and told them it was MDMA that their lives would have totally changed. Also, was the experience medically beneficial? Recreation could change someone's life in that it's enjoyable and may alter one's view of the world. Skydiving or reading books, like taking LSD, isn't medically beneficial if there's no illness being treated. If it's just fun or interesting, it's not medically useful even if it does totally change your life. Remember that I'm talking about LSD's ability to treat illness. I have no doubt that people think eating LSD is a lot of fun.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780168 -

Quote : Furthermore, medicine does not concern itself with helping people enjoy their lives more. Medicine treats illness

Treating illness improves quality of life, in turn allowing more enjoyment to be seized from life. LSD may not have any physical treatment but rather on a level beyond the scientific realm of understanding.

I know for sure that before I tried shrooms I was unhappy and depressive, and shrooms helped rekindle my hope to go on. It may not have done the same for you but that and other similar experiance seem to point in the general direction of (aiding) treatment of psychological disorders. At the same time, if used improperly they can have the opposite effect (much the same way taking 20 vicodin has little positive effects).


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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780169 -

Define illness and medical for arguments sake.


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780172 -

Phencyclidine said:
Furthermore, medicine does not concern itself with helping people enjoy their lives more.


um...Morphine treats pain so people can enjoy their lives more.
Are you saying Morphine isn't medicine? What about Prozac

And people who are happier tend to have better immune systems because chemicals released during stress and depression weaken the immune system.


--------------------
:shocked: *Divine Moments of Truth* :shocked:


"Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon

"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right" ~The Grateful Dead

"Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: PDU]
    #1780174 -

I have no problem if people believe that it is good for them, as long as they keep that out of the realm of a science like medicine. I'm only addressing LSD's ability to treat medical problems like depression or cancer. If you take LSD, have a lot of fun and begin using it for mystical purposes and believe that it has helped develop your soul and has altered your life for the better, then I can't argue with that.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: blink]
    #1780182 -

Medicine is a science, and I'm addressing LSD within medicine. I'm not saying anything about LSD which is outside the scope of science. You may believe whatever mystical beliefs about LSD that you wish. I don't care.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780197 -

The current realm of science regarding the mind is at best flawed and struggles to grasp the root cause of many disorders, schiz being one of the more notable.

If LSD can be used by a scientist to objectively see the world through a different perspective, then it may (or may not as the case happens to be) help to develop treatment possible coping mechanisms.
I will be the first to admit that the subjective LSD experiance is a far cry from the rigidity and order of math and science, but then again much of science depends upon constants. Maybe math is not as hardlined as we like to think it is, or that the mind is not bound by these processes completly. Science is the study of the predictable until tendancies are found and then math is applied to represent the predictable. Maybe we are missing a few variables to something outside our comprehension...

*edit: mysticism can be left out of the arguement and this still applies


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Edited by blinkidiot (08/05/03 12:12 AM)

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780199 -

So what about treating Dying cancer patient's with LSD. It helps them cope with their death and be content with it happening, rather than fearing it (supposedly...in some/most? cases.) It bring's them happiness and allow's them to be content with what is happening (which would be altered brain chemistry compared with living depressed or scared or in denile). It's not treating the main illness, but it is "treating" their psychological problems.



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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: PDU]
    #1780206 -

Illness is a state of poor physical or mental health due to a disease (or disorder).

Medicine is a science concerned with identifying, treating, and preventing disease and damage to the body or mind.

A disease is an unhealthy condition in an organism that is the result of various causes such as environmental stress, poison, or infection and which can be recognized by symptoms.


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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Help on the Way]
    #1780214 -

You said that morphine treats pain and that happier people tend to be healthier. You should have clearly concluded on your own that treating pain would improve health.

Pain is often a symptom of illness as well. Pain is the cause of illness. There are symptoms of pain. People can't function as well when they're in pain. Pain is suffering. Suffering is not healthy.

Now, consider taking morphine when you are in no pain. Is this treating a medical problem? Not as far as anybody can see. Thus, using morphine just because it treats pain when you have no identifiable illness does not necessarily have any value.

Finally, LSD isn't known to treat any medical condition, so what does morphine possibly have to do with any of this?

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780216 -

The treatment not only ever be on a physical level.  There have been cases of psychosomatic tumors, why should the opposite be impossible?

Not to say that cancer is cured by LSD, but some disease is within the treatment reach of LSD, by taking control over the mind and initiating some reparitive system.  The main problem is that comparing before and after fro the scientific objective, nothing my be different although the patient will state otherwise.  Thus a treatment is possible without proof as to the effectiveness through the medical scientific channels.  The bitchy part here is proving that the drug actually served as the catalyst for change  :smirk:.


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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: blink]
    #1780219 -

morphine improves quality of life, and is thus a treatment, albeit an inneffective one


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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: blink]
    #1780221 -

Yes, psychiatry does still have a long way to go. That may be part of the reason that nobody has found any use for LSD yet.

Science is the study of what is observable and repeatable.

I don't understand your edit comment.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: PDU]
    #1780225 -

PDU that would possibly be a use for LSD. If you can find me reliable information saying that LSD is an effective medicine for treating the psychological problems of cancer patients, then I'll gladly change my mind. I believe in one of the links you provided me with there was something about this but it indicated that the methodology was flawed.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: blink]
    #1780226 -

I bought me a hammer and burried it in the ground.

I'm hoping a house will grow there.


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https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780227 -

meh, just ignore it. I agree completley that there is much to learn in the field of psychiatry, in fact we have probably only scratched the surface of what is going on inside the neuro-chem reactions inside the head. And perhaps if studies were sanctioned by the govnt for LSD therapy something might have been discovered treatable by now.


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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: blink]
    #1780233 -

Huh? What's a psychosomatic tumor? Where did I say that treatment had to only be physical? I said that medicine also deals with mental well-being.

I don't really understand what you're saying about treating something with LSD that can't be proven (is that what you're saying)? If LSD could help a patient consciously control immune functions, then surely a study could show that LSD could do this reliably and effectively. If not, then any claims that LSD allowed the patient to cure their cancer with their mind would probably (and justifiably) be assumed to be a drug induced delusion.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: blink]
    #1780238 -

Morphine is a treatment for pain, yes, but it is an effective one. What is your point?

Morphine can improve the quality of life by treating psychological symptoms like depression, just as LSD may. Is morphine any more effective than having sex or going for a jog or playing cards? Is it safe to use morphine to treat psychological symptoms?

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: blink]
    #1780269 -

It's unfortunate that more studies aren't done involving LSD on human subjects, given its safety. It is used in research and it is a very valuable research tool, but it's usually used as a 5HT2A agonist. There have been a few papers published lately which try to link psychedelic 5HT2A agonists like LSD and psilocin with psychedelic NMDA antagonists like PCP and ketamine. I think one message of these papers is that the authors are saying that "we need more research done with this drugs."

Modern psychiatry is lacking the biological evidence that it thought it would have by now. A quick look through the DSM-IV-TR will tell you this. The great majority of the disorders in there can't be diagnosed by any physical signs. That's a problem. Modern psychiatry doesn't really know what most mental disorders are, physically. Hallucinogens are wonderful in research because they can produce states of consciousness which somewhat resemble mental illnesses.

I'm skeptical that any hallucinogen will find itself being used in medicine even within the next century. What I think is most likely is that hallucinogens will play a central role in figuring out how the psychotic disorders (like Schizophrenia) work, which will help people figure out how to treat them.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780290 -

"Finally, LSD isn't known to treat any medical condition, so what does morphine possibly have to do with any of this?"

um you said that medicine does not concern itself with helping people enjoy their lives more.

I was describing medicines that help people enjoy their lives better. Morphine doesnt heal anything or prevent anything from getting worse. It is used so that people in pain can enjoy their lives more and do the simple things that the pain interferes with. By saying medicine desnt concern itself with helping people enjoy their lives more, you are sayng morphine is not a medicine.


--------------------
:shocked: *Divine Moments of Truth* :shocked:


"Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon

"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right" ~The Grateful Dead

"Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780291 -

True Say... I think research may get done, but it most certainly be comming out of the US, which is unfortunate as their pharmaceutical companies make 150 billion a year (source unknown); They should have some scratch left over to pass a billion into research that could potentially treat these disorders. That and hopefully more technological advancements in the neurological field relating to the physical symptoms exhibited by these patients.


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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: blink]
    #1780298 -

I think LSD and other powerful hallucinagen's show great promise in addiction therapy aswell as psychotic disorders.

It is a pity research isnt being done more..

(tuesday widespread panic are on Jay leno...just thot id mention that)


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Help on the Way]
    #1780324 -

What the fuck? I already explained it above and I never said that morphine is not a medicine. Pain has negative symptoms. Pain is an indication of poor health.

Morphine treats pain. Pain is not healthy. Thus, morphine is a medicine.

Substance Y makes you happy. This does not necessary make substance Y a medicine. It will depend on whether or not it is safe and effective.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: PDU]
    #1780333 -

re: addiction disorders

Maybe. I remember reading in Jansen's "Ketamine: Dreams in Realities" that he speculated that perhaps in cultures where people didn't drink alcohol, perhaps even alcohol could be used as a psychedelic drug to cure drug addiction. "Set and Setting", right?

I think that there will be a big revolution in psychiatry emphasizing that the brain is plastic. Culture becomes a physical part of the brain. Symbols have physical power (eg// the symbol of the doctor has a physical power, explaining placebo). These are all hypothesis, supported by evidence, which medical anthropologists and anthropological psychiatrists have been doing a lot of work on. I think that if psychedelics do find use it will be in exploiting the symbollic power that psychedelics have for some people. Whether or not it will prove more effective than any other type of symbollic healing, I don't know.

BTW, there are psychiatrists who work with medicine men and shamans. These are western trained psychiatrists, too. The movement towards increased cultural sensitivity and recognizing the plasticity of the brain and symbollic power began when psychiatrists starting realizing that the physical evidence just isn't coming in fast enough.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780592 -

I think a major part of the discrepancy here is cause by the fact that psychology is barely a science if it is a science at all.


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https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1780599 -

LOL. I really don't have any faith in psychology. IMO, it barely qualifies as something that should be studied (no offense to the psychologists or psychology majors reading this).

Psychiatry on the other hand I admire. It looks for illness. It searches for biological causes. It searches for ways to treat disorders. It has it's problems but it's not like psychology.

I feel like psychology is always suffering from the classical psychological problem of projection, in that it's projecting its own psychology onto other people. LOL.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780602 -

LSD= Psychological drug

Prozac= Psychiatric drug

LSD makes well people better.


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https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Drummer]
    #1780670 -

I met two members of the "family" at "The big green gathering" in the uk, and i must say, there thoughts, help and idears were beautiful.
There advise on how to go from here was exallent, and there spirits were so far away from the money machine that i can only say, i do not agree :-(



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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780693 -

i hate cid and couldnt imagine it doing anything except making someone a little crazy. just look at leary now there was a nut case.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Lazerouth]
    #1780699 -

Lazerouth said:
i hate cid and couldnt imagine it doing anything except making someone a little crazy. just look at leary now there was a nut case.


Wow, what an educated opinion!


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780802 -

check out albert hoffman's books _insight, outlook_ & _lsd: my problem child_ & you may find that the story of what & why & how he did what he did is not "evil" just because he worked for sandoz...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: gnrm23]
    #1780869 -

& medical uses of psychedelics (e.g. the spring grove MD experiments with terminal cancer patients, stan grof's work, etc. etc...)
www.maps.org/wwwpb/passieintro.shtml
& stuff at www.csp.org & no doubt at www.erowid.org & www.psychedelic-library.org & elsewhere...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780989 -

Quote:
It is used in research and it is a very valuable research tool, but it's usually used as a 5HT2A agonist


And I use both LSD and psilocybin to treat Atrial fibrllation a heart arrythmia associated with the 5-Ht2 receptor.A sub psychadelic dose relieves symptoms of AF for 30-40 days a full psychadelic dose lasts several months,It is the only treatment I have found effective for my arrythmia.
I was weak tired and anxious due to the chaotic storm of impulses through the atrium of my heart. Psychadelic 5-Ht2 agonists are the only treatment for this condition and medical science is ignoring it.
PS search my first post here and see how my tone has changed!
Thank God for these holy molecules of health
WR


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To old for this place

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: gnrm23]
    #1781483 -

gnrm23 said:
check out albert hoffman's books _insight, outlook_ & _lsd: my problem child_ & you may find that the story of what & why & how he did what he did is not "evil" just because he worked for sandoz...


In one of my posts after I said that LSD is evil I said that I don't actually think this. I don't believe in Satan. I don't think chemicals can be good or evil and if they are I don't see any way that I could know about it.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1781705 -

Phencyclidine, to be too scientific is machine-like, and goes against our well. It grants you nothing ,and you learn very little.

Experience itself is what teaches - and true exprience can be interpretted in a matter of ways.


What I'm getting at, is you need to take a deep breath, relax......forget about language for a second, and just feel. Think with your heart, not your mind for a second. (Don't call the police on me, that statement wasn't meant to be literal).


You are looking at this from a linear, scientific standpoint and not from the standpoint of feeling, experience - where reality comes from.



I suggest you take a break from logic, which was invented by humans and not very meritable, and start seeing from your eyes, hearing from your ears, etc. Then maybe you will understand what these fine people are talking about.



I have been awakened, healed, informed, and had many amazing things happen from psychedelics. To try to deny my experience through logic is itself useless, for I know it to be true.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1781757 -

On the contrary, I find science to be greatly humanistic. I find science warm and beautiful. Reading about cell biology sends shivers down my spine.

I do have an internal philosophical life that acknowledges that logic may have absolutely no validity and that maybe I can't trust my senses. However, when communicating with the other human beings, I'm assuming that they exist, and thus science seems the most reasonable framework for interaction. I see little point in, for example, seriously taking the approach that Descarte's Evil Demon problem may be the truth when interacting with other people. In fact, taking that approach would seem completely nonsensical.

I like language, but I don't want it to break down into the postmodern mess that I've been exposed to in various places. I like the idea that there is a world somewhere out there that I can actually observe. I seem driven to attempt understanding, so language, order and science feel good to me. Postmodern breakdown of language and philosophical insecurity are unpleasant for me.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: kosmic_charlie]
    #1781779 -

kosmic_charlie said:
I bought a quarter sheet of white blotters in Joliet for $75 and it have any LSD on it.  :frown: 


sorry to hear that man...there was probably like 10 hits of real acid total at that show...if that 


--------------------
:shocked: *Divine Moments of Truth* :shocked:


"Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon

"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right" ~The Grateful Dead

"Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: d33p]
    #1782583 -

d33p said:
Ive heard of lsd being used to treat cluster headaches/migraines. NOt sure of the specifices but i deffinatly remember something on it.


MIght work. I -know- Psilocin/Psilobycin are useful for clusters and migranes...


--------------------
"Do we want the stars? We can have them. Can we borrow cups of fire from the sun? We can and must and light the world." --"On the Shoulders of Giants", Ray Bradbury

All of my posts are full of fiction and blatant lies.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1782589 -

Phencyclidine said:
here's a quote from one of the links you gave me:

"Slightly less than two-thirds of the subjects did not report persisting beneficial effects. To most of these subjects, their LSD experience seems to have been similar in impact to interesting entertainment. "


Shit, a slightly-more-than-one-third success rate in treatment is fantastic for a lot of drugs.


--------------------
"Do we want the stars? We can have them. Can we borrow cups of fire from the sun? We can and must and light the world." --"On the Shoulders of Giants", Ray Bradbury

All of my posts are full of fiction and blatant lies.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1782597 -

Phencyclidine said:
Haven't I already made it clear that when I say that LSD is medically useless I mean that it is currently not known to be medically useful.


Lack of proof, as I'm sure that you've heard, is not proof of absence.

For what it's worth, I don't think LSD is by itself a drug that'll cure anything. However, it does seem to act as a psycho-emotional lubricant, and combined with self-analysis or therapy, seems to bring about results.


--------------------
"Do we want the stars? We can have them. Can we borrow cups of fire from the sun? We can and must and light the world." --"On the Shoulders of Giants", Ray Bradbury

All of my posts are full of fiction and blatant lies.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Help on the Way]
    #1782604 -

China, I must apologize. I did not mean to sound like I was implying that you had anything to do with the scene anymore, I know you do not from your posts and knew that for quite a while. I was merely asking you because I am sure you ran into old friends while you were at red rocks and thought perhaps you could shed some insight as to why things are how they are. I was looking for more or less for an answer like most of the old family are only doing part or some of the tour and whether or not they had any control of the situation. Unfortunately I must have missed the posting you and wr had made about the displeasure of the current scene, if I had seen that I would not had bothered with this post.
I should of worded it all better, on the bright side this is the most active post I ever started...

Drummer


--------------------
People don't want other people to get high, because if you get high, you might see the falsity of the fabric of the society we live in.

-Ken Kesey

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Drummer] * 1
    #1782870 -

No offence taken man. :smile:
I understand your frustration too.
In fact i'm probably more frustrated because i'm watching something that I dedicated a decade of my life to be detroyed. Alot of people spent alot of years before me making this happen. Many at the cost of their personal freedom. They deserve better and so do you guys. 


--------------------
Some rise
Some fall
Some climb
To get to Terrapin!!!

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Sev]
    #1782945 -

Quote:
Sev said: Shit, a slightly-more-than-one-third success rate in treatment is fantastic for a lot of drugs.


That link says absolutely nothing about the sucess rate of treatment. That's the subjective opinions of how people thought LSD affected their lives. Your comment does not apply here.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Sev]
    #1782948 -

Quote:
Sev said: Lack of proof, as I'm sure that you've heard, is not proof of absence.


I agree, and I never said otherwise. In fact, I said that I think it's possible that one day LSD could be found to be a treatment for something. This doesn't change the fact that LSD is currently useless to medicine.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1784030 -

Phencyclidine said:
That link says absolutely nothing about the sucess rate of treatment. That's the subjective opinions of how people thought LSD affected their lives. Your comment does not apply here.


I don't know, I'd say that 'lasting benificial effects' would mean that some aspect of the treatment was successful.

...And how else are you going to rate something like that except for subjectively?


--------------------
"Do we want the stars? We can have them. Can we borrow cups of fire from the sun? We can and must and light the world." --"On the Shoulders of Giants", Ray Bradbury

All of my posts are full of fiction and blatant lies.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1784032 -

Phencyclidine said:
Quote:
Sev said: Lack of proof, as I'm sure that you've heard, is not proof of absence.


I agree, and I never said otherwise. In fact, I said that I think it's possible that one day LSD could be found to be a treatment for something. This doesn't change the fact that LSD is currently useless to medicine.


...The modern organised medical machine, perhaps, but not the whole world of medicine.


--------------------
"Do we want the stars? We can have them. Can we borrow cups of fire from the sun? We can and must and light the world." --"On the Shoulders of Giants", Ray Bradbury

All of my posts are full of fiction and blatant lies.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Sev]
    #1784060 -

Quote:
Sev said: ...And how else are you going to rate something like that except for subjectively?


If you're treating an illness or disorder, then objectively. Part of it will be subjective in mental disorders, but this didn't have to do with treatment. Your comment doesn't apply here.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1784200 -

What are the currently prescribed drugs for:

Complacency
Naivety
Ignorance
Intolerance
Judgementality
Unimagineativity
Humorlessness
Authoritarianism

Etc, ect...

Do they have drugs for these "conditions" yet?


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https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1784873 -

None of those are illnesses on their own, so no, and I know of no drug used in medicine is used to treat those "symptoms."

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1784904 -

Because those are fundamental problems with each of us. They are symptons of ego, and despite what you think drugs can, and are used for spiritual and personal development.

To think those fundamental flaws could be 'cured'?!..not cured, but dissolved...what a remarkable substance.


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1785378 -

I did not say that drugs could not be used for spiritual development. I simply don't consider spiritual flaws to fall under the realm of medicine.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine] * 1
    #1785457 -

Quote:
I simply don't consider spiritual flaws to fall under the realm of medicine.


If i'm not mistaken doesn't psychiatrist mean "doctor of the soul". I read that somewere. Can't say if its true or not though.

Anyway a point i'd like to make is that "spiritual flaws" may not be in the scope of modern medicine, but perhaps they should. Don't you think its quite possible that spiritual flaws can manifest in psychological or physiological disorders.


--------------------
Some rise
Some fall
Some climb
To get to Terrapin!!!

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1786334 -

Phencyclidine said:
I did not say that drugs could not be used for spiritual development. I simply don't consider spiritual flaws to fall under the realm of medicine.


...One of the major reasons, IMO, that the practice of medicine currently needs a revamping...


--------------------
"Do we want the stars? We can have them. Can we borrow cups of fire from the sun? We can and must and light the world." --"On the Shoulders of Giants", Ray Bradbury

All of my posts are full of fiction and blatant lies.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Sev]
    #1786982 -

Just a few random thoughts worth the pixels they are displayed in:

Take 100 people that want to take acid and put them in a room.

Out of that 100, how many will be doing it for enlightenment?
How many of the 100 will be doing it to party and see pretty stuff?
Now notice the distinction, out of that 100 how many will BE enlightened in one way or another?

To my point: Maybe the classification of LSD as a "sacrament" is a double edged sword? How many of us refer to pot as a "sacrament?" Now ask yourself, how hard is it to get LSD as opposed to Pot? I'm pretty advanced in age (as a matter of fact I turned 35 about 26 minutes ago) and I'm along in my career of choice and place in my community, but it is still easy as hell to get pot. And really good pot at that. Stronger, lower quantities that are easier to dispose of in an emergency and that will last a really long time. LSD as a "sacrament" gives it a special mystery which can command a high price. So, a flooding may be necessary.

Frankly, coming here to the shroomery and other boards and finding how scarce LSD has become is very disconcerting to me. Anything more than two or three phone calls away is absurd. And the weakness of the doses that I'm hearing about is just criminal. It could be possible that a meeting needs to be held at some point to form a new and more responsive "family." So, all you kiddies out there take your math and chemistry classes seriously and get back with those of us stuck in the old fogie classification. Your help is needed.

-RR68


--------------------
"Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition."

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: chinacat72]
    #1787116 -

Quote:
chinacat72 said: Don't you think its quite possible that spiritual flaws can manifest in psychological or physiological disorders.



The etymology of the word psychiatrist probably does have it's meaning originate to words that essentail mean "soul doctor", but the modern meaning of the word in English means 'a doctor who specializes in disorders of the mind.' In medicine, every manifestation of the mind will be assumed to have a neurological explanation (this is probably considered axiomatic in psychiatry).

Usually, "spiritual" is a term which refers to the nonphysical core of a human being. This application of the word "spiritual" does have use in anthropological psychiatry, but anthropological psychiatrists assume that there is a physical explanation for everything that a culture might consider spiritual. Nonphysical explanations will never have any application in mainstream psychiatry. Only culturally sensitive psychiatry will attempt to address mental illnesses on the grounds of the patient (which does include spiritual terms). IMO, it's going to depend on the culture that you're dealing with. However, mainstream psychiatry will stick to science and consider any sort of spiritual explanations to be outside of that realm, because hypothesis formation and testing would be virtually impossible. Psychiatrists addressing psychedelic using subcultures with spiritual beliefs would simply be one small branch of psychiatry. The answer to your question is, "yes and no."

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Sev]
    #1787137 -

Quote:
Sev said:...One of the major reasons, IMO, that the practice of medicine currently needs a revamping...


Ever heard of medical anthropology? There's a huge movement within medicine and psychiatry to address illnesses on the grounds of how the patient interprets them. Medical anthropologists argue that until neuropharmacological answers are found for mental illnesses that it is meaningless to treat psychiatric disorders as biological problems and that they should be treated as the illnesses that the patient perceives. Two examples (I believe they're listed in DSM-IV-TR under "culturally specific disorders", or something of the like) are Dhat syndrome and Amok (disorder). However, medical anthropologists, especially working within psychiatry are working towards bridging the gap between culture and neurology. Right now the neurology of mental illness is so poorly understood that medical anthropologists are only capable of making vague hypotheses about culturally specific (eg// "spiritual") mental disorders. Most of the hypothesis are based on the idea that culture becomes physically wired into the brain. Thus, even psychiatrists who currently address certain mental illnesses as spiritual disorders are still assuming that there is a physical (and therefore scientific) explanation.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1788237 -

What exactly is your beef against acid?

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: HarveyWalbanger]
    #1788656 -

He's just trying to prove himself as intellectual and basically boosting his ego. If anyone needs soul work, its him.


To be honest, pretty much all illnesses have their roots in past lifetimes, genetics, or emotional turmoil. That is a fact.

So to work on the soul , or emotional body even - is to heal physically. The MOST important work is work on the soul, not on the physical shell. Once we begin work on the soul, the physical shell will heal itself accordingly.



I have much more faith in LSD healing my neurological disease than anything western medicine can do. This is because I know if you heal the soul, the body follows.

For my ailments, I jog daily, eat well, practice Qigong, and have a psychedelic trip occasionaly. SO far its helped.


Western medicine does not help. Not usually, anyway. It is a drug market, and should be illegal.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1788957 -

>>>He's just trying to prove himself as intellectual and basically boosting his ego. If anyone needs soul work, its him.<<<


Oh that wasn't pretentious at ALL.


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1789481 -

Don't know if I'm in the wrong thread ... but ... I love the phrase ... "LSD, a word that brings out an acute psychotic reaction in people that have never taken it"

NewbieHardcue


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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: BillyHardcue]
    #1789508 -

this doesnt have much to do with the topic either but .. this whole thread is jacked
anyways, a girl in my class asked a question in psychology and she kind've had a point
she asked about how when people are depressed it can make them physically sick sometimes if they're so upset and stuff..
so she asked what if people are very well balanced and happy, could it help them physically

the teacher answered itd kindve be impossible to be well balanced since theres too much going on in your head.. but who knows, theres times you can totally clear your conciousness on enough drugs ;x

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Ori]
    #1789543 -

And I think to myself ... "What a wonderful girl"

SlightlyHardcue

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Ori] * 1
    #1789760 -

Quote:
theres times you can totally clear your conciousness on enough drugs ;x 



For me thats what psychedelics do under the right dosages and conditions. Having no thoughts or desires. Free from your ego you slpash into the moment and disslove into eternity. It doesn't last ,but when you come back you see the world and your involvement in it differently. After see'ing the light from were we came its like a new faith. Your not enlightend, but you have a perspective of what it is.
To be able to leave the physical plane and dissovle into the spiritual world and come back is a true gift. We should all be greatful of these substances that allow us to do that. Used properly the potential for psychedelics in healing us and our culture is breathtaking. :heart:
Just my viewpoint on it.

 


--------------------
Some rise
Some fall
Some climb
To get to Terrapin!!!

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: tekramrepus]
    #1789895 -

It's laughable that you think I try proving myself as an intellectual as an anonymous poster on a site dedicated to psychedelic mushrooms. Even if this is truly what you believe about me, does this mean that you can dismiss my views?

Quote:
To be honest, pretty much all illnesses have their roots in past lifetimes, genetics, or emotional turmoil. That is a fact.


You clearly don't understand the meaning of the word "fact." There's no evidence whatsoever that people live past lives. I'd like to see you cite a scientific source for that bullshit fact. All you've done is demeaned yourself and this thread by attacking my credibility and destroying your own.

BTW, are you a scientologist?

Western medicine tells you to get excercise. Western medicine is responsible for curing and treating the majority of diseases that have been or are treated. Ever heard of polio? Ever heard of penicillin?

Sorry man but what you're saying is total nonsense. If you want to believe that LSD is good for your soul, that's totally fine, but don't try passing it off as a "fact" that LSD is more useful than all of Western medicine.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: HarveyWalbanger]
    #1789900 -

HarveyWalbanger said:
What exactly is your beef against acid?


I don't have a beef against acid. LSD was always a lot of fun. I think LSD should be legal for everyone to enjoy if they chose to do so. Just because I don't think LSD has magical healing powers doesn't mean that I dislike it. What's with these attempts at discrediting me?

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1790300 -

DOOOD doncha know Phencyclidine will make yer brain bleed? :wink: j/k
you got everyones brains bleeding all over the net man! You need to cut that shit it's too pure for the G/P :smile:(an even worse j/k)
WR:rasta:


--------------------
To old for this place

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: whiterasta]
    #1790412 -

What's "G/P", mang?

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1790481 -

General Population?


--------------------
https://www.gofundme.com/f/support-for-renee-goods-wife-and-son

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1790525 -

Duh, I'm a smartie pants.  Thank you, Hitler. :wink:

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1790975 -

Quote:
Western medicine tells you to get excercise.  Western medicine is responsible for curing and treating the majority of diseases that have been or are treated.  Ever heard of polio?  Ever heard of penicillin?


For what it's worth, quite a lot of Western Medicine was, for a large portion of its existance, rather harmful to its patient in general.  Only since about 1900 has it really matured and, even so, I don't think it's near where it should be at.

Western Medicine is also stealing at a rapid pace from Eastern Medicine.  :smile:  Turns out there really is a basis for thinking some of those odd herbs have certain beneficial properties.  *grin*  Not to mention that Eastern medicine tends to focus equally on treating both the body and the spirit, as it were.

...Did you know that the once-a-day birth control pill originated in ancient china?  It was made with a similar process to how the pill was made through most of the 20th century -- boiling down the urine of pregnant mares.  :smile:


--------------------
"Do we want the stars? We can have them. Can we borrow cups of fire from the sun? We can and must and light the world." --"On the Shoulders of Giants", Ray Bradbury

All of my posts are full of fiction and blatant lies.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1791058 -

Sorry if I'm covering things people have allready said. This is a long thread and I just saw it and I wanted to throw my two cents into the pot.

Quote:
Psychiatry on the other hand I admire. It looks for illness. It searches for biological causes. It searches for ways to treat disorders. It has it's problems but it's not like psychology.



That's my main beef with pyschiatry-it's become applied neuropharmacology,and nothing more. I think biological concepts are important in the understanding of mental illness and medication (btw,I'm very interested in neuropharm),but these claims are overly reductionist and with our poor understanding of the brain:over simplied. I've meant a lot of arrogant psychiatrists who think they know everything.If I hear another doctor say "you must have low serotonin levels or too much chemical X",I'm going to get violent. (Just look at those ridiculous chemical flow charts on pathology). As China pointed out,psychiatry actually means something like "soul doctoring". In my experience,psychological explanations are totally overlooked by most psychiatrists. Most are just experimental med checkers.

And as far as LSD having no use in medicine,I think that's totally wrong. It's hard to conduct studies when something is in C1,so I'm only pointing out anectdotal evidence,but there is a lot of information out there that LSD might be useful for cluster and related headaches and possibly even OCD.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Sev]
    #1793996 -

Sev said:
Quote:
Western medicine tells you to get excercise.  Western medicine is responsible for curing and treating the majority of diseases that have been or are treated.  Ever heard of polio?  Ever heard of penicillin?


For what it's worth, quite a lot of Western Medicine was, for a large portion of its existance, rather harmful to its patient in general.


Huh?  Give me a little bit more information about these nonsense claims.  Some medications will have nasty side effects, including harmful ones.

Quote:
Only since about 1900 has it really matured and, even so, I don't think it's near where it should be at. 


Since 1900, yes, Western medicine has started kicking ass.  LOL.

What system of medicine is more advanced than Western medicine today?

Quote:
Western Medicine is also stealing at a rapid pace from Eastern Medicine.


Stealing?

Quote:
Turns out there really is a basis for thinking some of those odd herbs have certain beneficial properties.


And how is this "stealing"?  Do you expect doctors to say, "Oh, well, we can't use that medicine because another culture uses it."  The reason herbal remedies don't get huge investments is because they can't be patented.  Western medicine can't steal them because they don't belong to anybody.

Quote:
Not to mention that Eastern medicine tends to focus equally on treating both the body and the spirit, as it were.


Western medicine won't concern itself with treating the "spirit" because the spirit is outside the realm of science.  If the mind needs treating, Western medicine has a specialized branch to deal with it.  Some treatments that are oriented around physical treatments could use better integration with counselling and support services though.

Quote:
...Did you know that the once-a-day birth control pill originated in ancient china?  It was made with a similar process to how the pill was made through most of the 20th century -- boiling down the urine of pregnant mares.  :smile: 


That's an interesting footnote to the fact that the great majority of useful medications have their origins in Western medicine. 

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: monoamine]
    #1794005 -

Just because a substance may have a possible use doesn't mean that it is known to be useful. When I say that LSD is currently useless to medicine, that's because it has no known use. If they found a use for LSD tomorrow, then the fact that today I said that LSD is useless to medicine would be correct.

Regarding the other issues, I've made a few posts about anthropological psychiatry above.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: chinacat72]
    #1810380 -

chinacat72 said:
Quote:
theres times you can totally clear your conciousness on enough drugs ;x 


For me thats what psychedelics do under the right dosages and conditions. Having no thoughts or desires. Free from your ego you slpash into the moment and disslove into eternity. It doesn't last ,but when you come back you see the world and your involvement in it differently. After see'ing the light from were we came its like a new faith. Your not enlightend, but you have a perspective of what it is.
To be able to leave the physical plane and dissovle into the spiritual world and come back is a true gift. We should all be greatful of these substances that allow us to do that. Used properly the potential for psychedelics in healing us and our culture is breathtaking. :heart:
Just my viewpoint on it.

   


I completely agree with that.  Whenever I trip, im able to feel things i've only dreamed about. Like when I can just sit in the middle of the woods or by a river for hours, just taking in the beuty of life. Or at a show, just dancing to the music and everything goes away except for me, the band and the music. Psychedelics are a sacrament. When thoughts can be so simple but yet so complex.  When life can be so perfect and beutiful how can one put a price on that or have a law against that. 

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: chinacat72]
    #1811982 -

chinacat72 said:
Quote:
theres times you can totally clear your conciousness on enough drugs ;x 


For me thats what psychedelics do under the right dosages and conditions. Having no thoughts or desires. Free from your ego you slpash into the moment and disslove into eternity. It doesn't last ,but when you come back you see the world and your involvement in it differently. After see'ing the light from were we came its like a new faith. Your not enlightend, but you have a perspective of what it is.
To be able to leave the physical plane and dissovle into the spiritual world and come back is a true gift. We should all be greatful of these substances that allow us to do that. Used properly the potential for psychedelics in healing us and our culture is breathtaking. :heart:
Just my viewpoint on it.

   


fucking right on! 


--------------------
Work like you dont need the money.

Love like you never been hurt.

Dance like nobody is watching.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1812205 -

The problem with western science and medicine is that it often totally discounts subjective experience. I understand the whole point of being objective in science,but in psychiatry and a lot of other medicine, taking subjective expreriences seriously is key. For example,I don't think SSRI antidepresants are nearly as effective as doctors believe. I think in a lot of instances,they just makes people complain less and make people outwardly look less depressed,but truly they don't feel any happier.

Quote:
Just because a substance may have a possible use doesn't mean that it is known to be useful.



But it is known to be useful (maybe not to mainstream science),but it's so difficult to study,it's nearly impossible to prove.I imagine if LSD wasn't a C1 and didn't have as much social stigma attached to it,it would be proven useful for the treatment of cluster headaches, certain heart conditions,and treatment refractory OCD. Afterall,there is a solid theoretical foundation for why it might work for said conditions.

BTW,many, if not most,of the early, famous "psychedelic idealists" thought that the psychological uses of LSD were beyond the realm of science because these aspects could never be objectively prooven. However,that still doesn't necessarily mean it's not useful for psychological conditions. (BTW,my personal opinion is that LSD is too unpredictable to be used in psychiatry,besides a few special circumstances.)


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

Edited by grandmasterfat (08/14/03 02:25 AM)

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: monoamine]
    #1821626 -

grandmasterfat said:
The problem with western science and medicine is that it often totally discounts subjective experience. I understand the whole point of being objective in science,but in psychiatry and a lot of other medicine, taking subjective expreriences seriously is key.


Like I already pointed out though, anthropologically oriented psychiatry already and medical anthropology don't discount subjective experience at all. The placebo effect has been known for decades. That indicates awareness and interest in the patient's subjectivity. Other areas of medicine don't need to address subjectivity. Antibacterial drugs will inhibit enzymes responsible for building cell walls whether you're aware of it or not. On the other hand, anecdotal accounts (subjective reports) of a drug's efficacy can be tossed into the garbage can in many cases, because they're not reliable.

Quote:
Just because a substance may have a possible use doesn't mean that it is known to be useful.



But it is known to be useful (maybe not to mainstream science)


Where is it known to be useful and by who? I don't consider the positive opinions about LSD by people who are obviously pro-psychedelic drug to be worthy of much consideration, just like you don't think SSRIs are as effective as many believe. If there was hard evidence, and LSD was known to be effective, then, well, it would be known. In this case, if there's no evidence, then it's not known. Science has to operate on a broader social level. If only one person knows that substance X causes cancer, then no, it's not known, and if you aren't able to reproduce the data supporting that conclusion then I simply can't take the claim that substance X causes cancer very seriously.

Quote:
but it's so difficult to study,it's nearly impossible to prove.I imagine if LSD wasn't a C1 and didn't have as much social stigma attached to it,it would be proven useful for the treatment of cluster headaches, certain heart conditions,and treatment refractory OCD.


The simple fact is that right now LSD has no medical use. It was studied for decades. There are volumes of books documenting medical research with LSD. Nothing comes to any conlusion. It looks like LSD can't be used for any known disorder at this point. Maybe one day it will. I have no objection to that. What I do object to is people claiming that it is a medical fact that LSD is medically beneficial. It's not.

Quote:
Afterall,there is a solid theoretical foundation for why it might work for said conditions.


Any references to literature about this?

Quote:
BTW,many, if not most,of the early, famous "psychedelic idealists" thought that the psychological uses of LSD were beyond the realm of science because these aspects could never be objectively prooven.


Anthropological sciences have grown a lot since then. I think you would be genuinely and pleasantly surprised if you picked up a book about medical anthropology.

Quote:
However,that still doesn't necessarily mean it's not useful for psychological conditions.


I would disagree with the initial assessment of LSD's effects being beyond science.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Drummer]
    #18685472 -

Drummer said:
Is there any real family touring with the dead, or did they just turn the keys over to a bunch of kiddies who are driven by greed and have a "holier than thou" air to them.
Maybe I just have not had the pleasure of meeting any of them, but the ones I did meet left a bad taste and really give me doubts about the future of any type of movement (which for the life of me I would love to see happen again).



Pretty much yeah, but Chinacat72 was a part of that since he was very low on the totem pole and would just sell doses at shows just to fund his addiction to coke and heroin.

The whole GD "scene" has been going downhill since the late 70s and it was really bad when Chinacat72 came along and just got worse and keeps getting worse.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: WharphRat]
    #18685501 -

why are you bumping threads to say these things


--------------------
"Ur cat died because he hated u" - Koods
"I hope JSB kicks your ass one day." - Vandago
"you are the biggest 'internet guy' I have ever come across"- Jokeshopbeard
"The more I see you post the more I realize you're just this fuckin tie dye loser who trolls the Shroomery 24/7." - Herbologist
"Sheekle you cannot vile the dice of bullshit you have posted on this forum over the years, I like databases" - thelastoneleft
"or maybe i just come from a blood line of superior intelligence" - trees

R.I.P Kelsy, ?/?/?? - 6/11/16

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Sheekle]
    #18686313 -

:grin:  I'm glad he did.  I forgot about this one. 
















--------------------
--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month: ESB - Mushroom People


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