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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1779853 -

Get your head out of the books and look at the effects. Answers aren't always found deep in a book.


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Cherk]
    #1779913 -

LOL. STFU. When I look at the LSD from purely "outside the books" my opinion of it is far worse than when I read about it. If I look at it from only "outside the books" then LSD is obviously medically useless street dope.

I don't evaluate the usefulness of drugs based on my subjective impressions of them. Otherwise I would simply think that LSD is for morons. Before I came to the Shroomery, everyone I'd met in real life who'd used LSD (with rare exceptions) was a complete moron and was clearly using LSD because it was cheap and fucked you up good.

I try taking a balanced approach. The problem is that there's nothing I see from "outside the books" that leads me to believe that LSD is anything other than a hallucinogen.

PS - I hate that bullshit approach people give me about trying to change my methodology. I'm allowed to evaluate things in any way I see fit. I don't think simply eating LSD tells me much. I think ignoring the books and dropping acid would be a stupid way to learn anything about it. Thanks for a stupid suggestion.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1779931 -

Ive heard of lsd being used to treat cluster headaches/migraines. NOt sure of the specifices but i deffinatly remember something on it.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1779936 -

Did I say answers are never found in books? Or did I say not always? What would it take for you to not consider acid useless. What kind of proof are you looking for? Or are you simply raising hell?


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Cherk]
    #1779956 -

To consider LSD other than medically useless I'd like to see a completely blind study comparing the effectiveness of using LSD and placebo to treat a condition.

By completely blind I mean that the doctor evaluating the effectiveness would also have to be blind. Ideally, the doctor wouldn't even know that he was evaluating a treatment for data collection purposes. It would also have to have a long term follow up.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: d33p]
    #1779959 -

Find a reference stating that LSD is currently used in medicine and my opinion will change.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1779975 -

You've probably already seen this.

http://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_medical1.shtml#FlashMethod

Not exactly scientific, but informative nonetheless


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1779985 -

I don't think thats possible since LSD is looked upon as the gateway to hell because of propaganda all over the world. Perhaps if LSD had been treated differently some 40 years ago we'd have more research on the chemical.



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I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Cherk]
    #1780031 -

There's tons of research on LSD. It was tossed in the garbage bin category called "psychedelic" because it was found to have no use. AFAIK, there's more research on LSD than on any other psychedelic drug.

Anyway, that's about all I see as acceptable for showing that the substance is useful, so until then LSD has no known medical use.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780033 -

again im sorry to say, what your saying PCP (strangely enough for you)...seems very uneducated, or perhaps bias seeing as every LSD user you ever met was a moron.

I have no reason to believe you when you say that there isnt a medical use for LSD, because i know of many thing's which point in the opposite direction of your statement.

This like saying Marijuana isnt a medicine because science cant prove it. If people are getting life changing positive effect's it sure as hell does have medical use, especially when used in the proper medical context.

"the drug was first marketed to psychiatrists after the Second World War as a tool to "elicit release of repressed material." By the 1950s, reports of miracle cures started to circulate, especially from Saskatchewan, where psychiatrists claimed that up to 60 per cent of their alcoholic patients stopped boozing after one huge dose of LSD."

"LSD therapy forced patients to realize that they were utterly alone, and responsible for their fate. It packed years of psychoanalysis into a single day."

"LSD therapy enabled patients to see themselves differently, and to 'happen' in another way,"

" in academic papers, Hubbard and MacLean claimed a success rate of 80 per cent with their alcoholic patients. Whether that number could stand up to scrutiny is debatable, but their techniques certainly brought about some extraordinary conversions. Metcalfe did follow-up interviews with 15 patients - radio executives, lawyers, prostitutes - and they all told him they'd been transformed by LSD therapy. "Drunken housewives, the sherry-party ones up in the British Properties, they were the most pathetic. I saw several of those women changed completely.""

" One of the patients, Barrie Leggatt remembers he was so riddled with anxiety that he could barely hold his job as an inventory clerk. But during his LSD session, Hubbard showed him a bouquet of roses. "He said, 'Now hate them.' They withered and the petals fell off, and I started to cry. Then he said 'Love them,' and they came back brighter and even more spectacular than before. That meant a lot to me," Leggatt says at his home in Victoria. "I realized that you can make your relationships into anything you want. The way I was having trouble with people was coming from me."

"It's kind of like being reborn," he continues. "You're ready to see things anew. But little by little you keep running up against the same problems, because the outside world's the same. There was no follow-up, and that's a shame, because the experience was so good. I still think LSD's got great potential.""
web page

web page

I absolutely cannot understand how someone such as yourself can come up with the conclusion that it is medically useless, im baffled.


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: PDU]
    #1780063 -

Not true at all about the bias. Every LSD user I met in real life, with some exceptions, before coming to the Shroomery was a complete moron. I had read about scientists who were psychedelic idealists on the internet. If I'd never had exposure to the online psychedelic idealist culture I would have simply assumed that LSD is for morons, but I know that isn't true. I was just making a point that if I hadn't read about LSD, then I would have simply assumed LSD was for morons.

Please show your evidence that LSD is medically useful.

That quote about the alcoholics has been contradicted by most reports I've seen. For a comprehensive but dated look read "LSD: A Total Study." All that LSD seemed to do for alcoholics was to extend the average time before relapse occured, but there was no significant change in the proportion of relapse.

If LSD had actually forced years of psychoanalysis into one day then it would be useful. That quote can be simply tossed out the window as bullshit.

Regarding the 80 percent sucess rate, as I said above, most data I've seen directly contradicts this one report, which your quote even shows is questionable, the suggestive impressions are absolutely meaningless. They might not reflect the hard data at all. If two groups, a placebo and LSD group were treated for disorder X and both had the same cure rate, but those in the LSD group said that LSD was some kind of wonder drug that cured them, then it's clear from the evidence that their claims are totally false because LSD couldn't be distinguished from placebo. Anyway, if you can find the study I'd like to see it, but know that if it was valid then it would truly be the first ever study I've read (out of many) that concluded that LSD was sucessful in treating alcoholism.

Coming to the conclusion that LSD is medically useless is simple. LSD currently has no known medical use. It is not known to be safe and effective for any medical condition. Thus, LSD is medically useless. This could change one day, but right now, it's useless.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: PDU]
    #1780070 -

Just because the US has demonized LSD and essentially keep's furthur research with LSD from happening, doesnt mean that its useless. Just because there is no modern studies showing its potential does not mean it doesnt have any.

"Psycholytic means 'ego-loosening' and derives from the work of Busch and Johnson (1950) who initially thought that the administration of LSD and the resulting 'loosening of the mind' might enable patients to overcome blocks within psychotherapy, in the same manner as the effects of delirium and insulin shock therapy did.

Eisner and Cohen (1958) write that LSD was thought to aid five basic elements that are considered desirable in psychotherapy:


It reduces defensiveness;

Buckman (1968) argues that primitive defences, such as denial and projection, are no longer available to patients under LSD and they may experience, with enormous emotional impact, the denied aspects of their own personalities.


It reduces resistance to uncovering repressed material;

Buckman (1968) suggests that the patient has access to deeper feelings, which he and the therapist can accept, understand and integrate.


It increases the ability to accept conflictual material;


It enhances the patient-therapist relationship;

Buckman (1968) notes that regression and transference are intensified leading to the emergence of early childish or even infantile memories and fantasies, which are significantly charged with emotion. If these are bought to light in the atmosphere of a therapeutic relationship based on trust, they can provide a corrective emotional experience for the patient.


During the experience, consciousness remains intact and recall is amplified."

http://www.maps.org/research/abrahart.html#chp3

"Cauldwell (1968), in his review of LSD psychotherapy, records that most researchers reported such increased extent of abreaction, transference and memory recall. Sandison, Spencer and Whitelaw (1954) describe that repressed memories are relived with remarkable clarity, with therapeutically beneficial consequences. Eisner and Cohen (1958) suggest that the use of LSD permits a rich view of the unconscious. Not only do they suggest that varying depths are possible with increasing dosages and number of sessions, but also that the patient retains the ability to follow both their own associations as well as the interpretations of the therapist. This permits a dramatic opportunity to trace problems back to their origins. Grof (1994) argues that this approach achieved solid and permanent results because any unconscious material was 'worked through' in the accompanying psychotherapy."

Anyways...there are just too many example's to provide you with...ive provided you with lots of reading which should sway your opinion.


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GO OUTSIDE.

Edited by PDU (08/04/03 11:31 PM)

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780077 -

Maybe the problem is how you're looking at LSD.  LSD by no means will magically cure an illness but it certainly will give the patient a good perspective when dealing with their illness.  The soul needs medicine sometimes too :smile: 


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: PDU]
    #1780079 -

here's a quote from one of the links you gave me:

"Slightly less than two-thirds of the subjects did not report persisting beneficial effects. To most of these subjects, their LSD experience seems to have been similar in impact to interesting entertainment. "

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780088 -

and what do you have to say about the rest of his post?


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I have considered such matters.

SIKE

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780093 -

Phencyclidine said:
Coming to the conclusion that LSD is medically useless is simple. LSD currently has no known medical use. It is not known to be safe and effective for any medical condition. Thus, LSD is medically useless. This could change one day, but right now, it's useless.


Gah, i guess ill agree to disagree. Those who claim to have lived better live's because of an LSD experience are obviously using LSD to its full medical potential...im not sure you can catagorize it and say it fixes all mental disorder's or anything else..it cant fit a generic mold of symptoms like prozac does. LSD is helpful on a personal basis...if the symptom's are right, and your head is messed up in a certain way...and LSD experience while practicing set and setting (be it recreationally or in a psychologist's office or a science lab) is without a doubt improving certain people's fault's/illness's/trouble's.

I suppose i could use myself as somewhat of a bad example...I took mushrooms on Canada day, smiled at my friend and said "im going to happy now" and my life has taken an unbelievably positive swing, and kicked into gear..life is good now. Without a doubt the change in perspective i experience'd was a catalyst for my change...just like with LSD.

Have you used LSD, PCP?


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Cherk]
    #1780109 -

Smoker For Peace said:
and what do you have to say about the rest of his post?


I was curious about that too.

things like " One of the patients, Barrie Leggatt remembers he was so riddled with anxiety that he could barely hold his job as an inventory clerk. But during his LSD session, Hubbard showed him a bouquet of roses. "He said, 'Now hate them.' They withered and the petals fell off, and I started to cry. Then he said 'Love them,' and they came back brighter and even more spectacular than before. That meant a lot to me," Leggatt says at his home in Victoria. "I realized that you can make your relationships into anything you want. The way I was having trouble with people was coming from me."

Thats undeniable. It has a medical use. Used in a clinical sense it improved this man's anxiety disorder's and allowed him to live a more normal functional life.

Also..in one of those link's i provide'd there was a study with a followup of patients 40 years later...check it out, that might be what your looking for.

Please dont search through the link's looking exclusively for thing's to disprove its medical use, just like with anything..LSD is good and bad depending on what the situation is, but in certain situations...many situations it is usefull. Just glance over it with an open mind.


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GO OUTSIDE.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: PDU]
    #1780123 -

Haven't I already made it clear that when I say that LSD is medically useless I mean that it is currently not known to be medically useful. I've already stated that it's logically possible that LSD could one day be known to have medical use, but currently LSD is a useless drug. I can't call a drug useful just because one day it might be useful.

None of that sways my opinion at all. I've already read it. That link you provided talks about open doors to the unconscious. Okay, but why is that medically useful? If LSD does this, then does it does so reliably and safely?

Look at some of these quotes from the link you just provided:
"Although the effects of LSD are useful in psychotherapy, Richter argues that they are not sufficient for therapeutic change."

"Mascher's (1967) research demonstrates that there is considerable efficacy in the use of psycholytic therapy with anxiety neuroses, irritable depression and character neuroses. However in view of the considerable variance in methods and treatments applied to patients, Mascher's figures remain problematic as evidence."
IOW, 'this drug might be useful, but we need more studies, because I am not sure.' That's not enough for me to call LSD medically useful.

"Since reliance was made on one to three single large doses of LSD, the researchers felt no need to accompany this with long-term psychotherapy. Kurland et al (1971) argues that since this approach happened without long-term psychotherapy, the initial dramatic improvements seen in subjects were mostly not long lasting."

"Abuzzahab and Anderson (1971) reviewed 31 published studies, which involved 1105 patients. 18 studies used a psychedelic approach, 5 with controls. 7 studies used a psycholytic approach, 3 with controls. From their review they argue that the evidence does not support LSD's effectiveness in treating alcoholics."

"Evidence that LSD is effective in facilitating therapeutic change is demonstrated in the literature by means of therapist's case reports, claims of improvement and by accounts of the patients involved. However, when control groups are used to validate therapy with LSD, only one author claims significant success. His research however can be questioned on his selection procedures. The use of LSD to facilitate therapeutic change was not confirmed by research using positivist methods."

------------------------------------

This final quote pretty much sums up what I think:
"Clearly the studies do not meet present day methodological requirements for their validity. They do not address non-specific therapeutic issues. Consequently it is difficult to draw conclusions from them."

IOW: LSD hasn't been demonstrated to be useful.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Cherk]
    #1780127 -

Smoker, the soul, if it does exist, is outside the realm of medicine.

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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780144 -

I know people who had LSD trips and totally changed their lives around and became much happier people (you could totally tell) and unlike drugs like prozac, they didnt need to keep dosing. One trip improvd their lives and they are still like that.

I know others who flipped out and had bad times...and said it messed their heads up pretty bad.

The fact that people are having experience that change their outlook on life for the better means that some people are definatly benifiting from this chemical. But...like all other chemicals...its all in how you use it


--------------------
:shocked: *Divine Moments of Truth* :shocked:


"Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon

"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right" ~The Grateful Dead

"Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter

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