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InvisiblePhencyclidine
Molecule

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 2,915
Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: PDU]
    #1780150 - 08/04/03 11:55 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Those who've claimed to live better because of LSD have no way to objectively verify that their claim is true. Also, you can't verify that perhaps more people say that LSD had no effect on their lives, or that they say that LSD had a negative effect. Furthermore, medicine does not concern itself with helping people enjoy their lives more. Medicine treats illness. Saying that LSD is medically useful because people enjoy is like saying that reading novels is medically useful because people enjoy reading books.

I see nothing to indicate that LSD is improving people's faults or troubles. BTW, most of the time, personality traits are also not an issue that medicine addresses. I'm talking about LSD in a medical context.

Bad methodology in your example. How do you objectively know that mushrooms were more effective than placebo in improving your mood? You don't, plain and simple. Also, if you hadn't taken mushrooms that day do you have reason to believe that you would have suffered (or continued to suffer from) some kind of illness?

Yes, I have used LSD about 35 times and psiloc(yb)in containing mushrooms about 15 to 20.

BTW, that last post where I quoted and someone asked me what I thought of the rest of your post was referring to the previous post by you.


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OfflinePDU
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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780153 - 08/04/03 11:56 PM (20 years, 5 months ago)

alright alright, so according to science LSD is a joke. Fine and dandy, just like Med pot. It helps some people, that is evident...but it isnt a proven medicine, it can be useful, it can be destructive, it has possibilities. We're basically bickering over the interpretation of medical, but i actually think we're fairly close in our opinion's...and nothing either of us say is really conclusive...so as you said, it does have future possibilities within medicine.

I imagine for now, People will use it to their own advantage in their own way's and....if they're like me...will continue to believe it has positive merit's for themselves.

Good discussion anyways!


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Posts: 2,915
Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Help on the Way]
    #1780163 - 08/05/03 12:00 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Again, poor methodology. You don't actually know that if you'd given them a sugar pill that day and told them it was MDMA that their lives would have totally changed. Also, was the experience medically beneficial? Recreation could change someone's life in that it's enjoyable and may alter one's view of the world. Skydiving or reading books, like taking LSD, isn't medically beneficial if there's no illness being treated. If it's just fun or interesting, it's not medically useful even if it does totally change your life. Remember that I'm talking about LSD's ability to treat illness. I have no doubt that people think eating LSD is a lot of fun.


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Invisibleblink
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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780168 - 08/05/03 12:01 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote : Furthermore, medicine does not concern itself with helping people enjoy their lives more. Medicine treats illness

Treating illness improves quality of life, in turn allowing more enjoyment to be seized from life. LSD may not have any physical treatment but rather on a level beyond the scientific realm of understanding.

I know for sure that before I tried shrooms I was unhappy and depressive, and shrooms helped rekindle my hope to go on. It may not have done the same for you but that and other similar experiance seem to point in the general direction of (aiding) treatment of psychological disorders. At the same time, if used improperly they can have the opposite effect (much the same way taking 20 vicodin has little positive effects).


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OfflinePDU
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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780169 - 08/05/03 12:01 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Define illness and medical for arguments sake.


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InvisibleHelp on the Way
Slipknot420

Registered: 08/12/00
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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780172 - 08/05/03 12:02 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Phencyclidine said:
Furthermore, medicine does not concern itself with helping people enjoy their lives more.




um...Morphine treats pain so people can enjoy their lives more.
Are you saying Morphine isn't medicine? What about Prozac

And people who are happier tend to have better immune systems because chemicals released during stress and depression weaken the immune system.


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:shocked: *Divine Moments of Truth* :shocked:


"Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon

"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right" ~The Grateful Dead

"Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Registered: 06/02/03
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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: PDU]
    #1780174 - 08/05/03 12:03 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I have no problem if people believe that it is good for them, as long as they keep that out of the realm of a science like medicine. I'm only addressing LSD's ability to treat medical problems like depression or cancer. If you take LSD, have a lot of fun and begin using it for mystical purposes and believe that it has helped develop your soul and has altered your life for the better, then I can't argue with that.


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: blink]
    #1780182 - 08/05/03 12:05 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Medicine is a science, and I'm addressing LSD within medicine. I'm not saying anything about LSD which is outside the scope of science. You may believe whatever mystical beliefs about LSD that you wish. I don't care.


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Invisibleblink
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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780197 - 08/05/03 12:11 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The current realm of science regarding the mind is at best flawed and struggles to grasp the root cause of many disorders, schiz being one of the more notable.

If LSD can be used by a scientist to objectively see the world through a different perspective, then it may (or may not as the case happens to be) help to develop treatment possible coping mechanisms.
I will be the first to admit that the subjective LSD experiance is a far cry from the rigidity and order of math and science, but then again much of science depends upon constants. Maybe math is not as hardlined as we like to think it is, or that the mind is not bound by these processes completly. Science is the study of the predictable until tendancies are found and then math is applied to represent the predictable. Maybe we are missing a few variables to something outside our comprehension...

*edit: mysticism can be left out of the arguement and this still applies


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Edited by blinkidiot (08/05/03 12:12 AM)


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OfflinePDU
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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780199 - 08/05/03 12:12 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

So what about treating Dying cancer patient's with LSD. It helps them cope with their death and be content with it happening, rather than fearing it (supposedly...in some/most? cases.) It bring's them happiness and allow's them to be content with what is happening (which would be altered brain chemistry compared with living depressed or scared or in denile). It's not treating the main illness, but it is "treating" their psychological problems.



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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: PDU]
    #1780206 - 08/05/03 12:14 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Illness is a state of poor physical or mental health due to a disease (or disorder).

Medicine is a science concerned with identifying, treating, and preventing disease and damage to the body or mind.

A disease is an unhealthy condition in an organism that is the result of various causes such as environmental stress, poison, or infection and which can be recognized by symptoms.



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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Posts: 2,915
Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Help on the Way]
    #1780214 - 08/05/03 12:20 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

You said that morphine treats pain and that happier people tend to be healthier. You should have clearly concluded on your own that treating pain would improve health.

Pain is often a symptom of illness as well. Pain is the cause of illness. There are symptoms of pain. People can't function as well when they're in pain. Pain is suffering. Suffering is not healthy.

Now, consider taking morphine when you are in no pain. Is this treating a medical problem? Not as far as anybody can see. Thus, using morphine just because it treats pain when you have no identifiable illness does not necessarily have any value.

Finally, LSD isn't known to treat any medical condition, so what does morphine possibly have to do with any of this?


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Invisibleblink
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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780216 - 08/05/03 12:20 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

The treatment not only ever be on a physical level.  There have been cases of psychosomatic tumors, why should the opposite be impossible?

Not to say that cancer is cured by LSD, but some disease is within the treatment reach of LSD, by taking control over the mind and initiating some reparitive system.  The main problem is that comparing before and after fro the scientific objective, nothing my be different although the patient will state otherwise.  Thus a treatment is possible without proof as to the effectiveness through the medical scientific channels.  The bitchy part here is proving that the drug actually served as the catalyst for change  :smirk:.


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Invisibleblink
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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: blink]
    #1780219 - 08/05/03 12:21 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

morphine improves quality of life, and is thus a treatment, albeit an inneffective one


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Posts: 2,915
Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: blink]
    #1780221 - 08/05/03 12:22 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Yes, psychiatry does still have a long way to go. That may be part of the reason that nobody has found any use for LSD yet.

Science is the study of what is observable and repeatable.

I don't understand your edit comment.


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: PDU]
    #1780225 - 08/05/03 12:24 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

PDU that would possibly be a use for LSD. If you can find me reliable information saying that LSD is an effective medicine for treating the psychological problems of cancer patients, then I'll gladly change my mind. I believe in one of the links you provided me with there was something about this but it indicated that the methodology was flawed.


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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: blink]
    #1780226 - 08/05/03 12:25 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

I bought me a hammer and burried it in the ground.

I'm hoping a house will grow there.


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Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ
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Invisibleblink
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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: Phencyclidine]
    #1780227 - 08/05/03 12:25 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

meh, just ignore it. I agree completley that there is much to learn in the field of psychiatry, in fact we have probably only scratched the surface of what is going on inside the neuro-chem reactions inside the head. And perhaps if studies were sanctioned by the govnt for LSD therapy something might have been discovered treatable by now.


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: blink]
    #1780233 - 08/05/03 12:29 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Huh? What's a psychosomatic tumor? Where did I say that treatment had to only be physical? I said that medicine also deals with mental well-being.

I don't really understand what you're saying about treating something with LSD that can't be proven (is that what you're saying)? If LSD could help a patient consciously control immune functions, then surely a study could show that LSD could do this reliably and effectively. If not, then any claims that LSD allowed the patient to cure their cancer with their mind would probably (and justifiably) be assumed to be a drug induced delusion.


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InvisiblePhencyclidine
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Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 2,915
Re: ChinaCat, Its getting sickening [Re: blink]
    #1780238 - 08/05/03 12:31 AM (20 years, 5 months ago)

Morphine is a treatment for pain, yes, but it is an effective one. What is your point?

Morphine can improve the quality of life by treating psychological symptoms like depression, just as LSD may. Is morphine any more effective than having sex or going for a jog or playing cards? Is it safe to use morphine to treat psychological symptoms?


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