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Re: mitt rob-me just blew it... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #16874159 -

Of those 47%, how many of them are disabled war veterans, or current soldiers who aren't required to pay taxes on their military pay?  How many of them are retired elderly people?  How many of them are bible-belt trailer trash that are part of his key demographic?  I don't have any real percentages, but I'd guess a sizable portion of those "moochers" are Romney supporters.  Was he trying to alienate his base?


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Put America to sleep with warm milk and clichés.

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Re: mitt rob-me just blew it... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #16874220 -

Quote:
From what I've read, it looks like you're just engaging in the same rhetoric that you criticize romney for using.  You say that his family abused welfare without any evidence to support it, and you justify it by saying that romney thinks that everyone on welfare is abusing it.

In addition, you seem to think that anyone who doesn't reject everything romney has ever said or done is somehow pro-romney.  I am neither pro-romney nor pro-obama.  If I had my choice, neither would be in politics at all. That doesn't mean that I forsake reason and fairness by accusing them of things of which I have no evidence.

It weakens your credibility, and therefore your argument, when you engage in unsupported hyperbole such as claiming that romney would have starved if his parents didn't abuse welfare.  It's sleazy and makes you look like someone who would say anything just to turn one more person against Romney.



    What goes around comes around, and if you dont like it thats just big ol tuff Opra titi. If you cant take a joke i dunno wat to tell you, Your negative opinion of my appreciation for Irony and humor wont prove me wrong or hurt my feelings .  I dont have a negative opinion of you. Unless accusing you of supporting Romney is an insult. Then Im sorry.
  I do agree with you though if only there were a third or fourth guy to make fun of and urge people not to vote for. Would be nice.


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My 3 year old cyan patchhttp://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17135850

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/20937710


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Re: mitt rob-me just blew it... [Re: psilynut]
    #16874233 -

I get it...you think you're steven colbert.

Just remember, using such tactics only works on people who already agree with you.  If you just want to have fun, that's fine.  If you want to actually make a difference, you'll have to step up your game a bit.

Carry on.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: mitt rob-me just blew it... [Re: BothHands]
    #16874252 -

BothHands said:
Was he trying to alienate his base?


As the speech was never intended for release... I'd say no.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: mitt rob-me just blew it... [Re: psilynut]
    #16874274 -

For some reason Therian always reminds me that people are better than I think they are and deserve to be treated with more understanding and compassion than I habitually have to offer.


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Re: mitt rob-me just blew it... [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #16874278 -

luvdemshrooms said:
BothHands said:
Was he trying to alienate his base?


As the speech was never intended for release... I'd say no.


The original speech wasn't intended for release, but he has since gone on record stating he stands behind the message.  What of that?


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Put America to sleep with warm milk and clichés.

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Re: mitt rob-me just blew it... [Re: BothHands]
    #16874292 -

He had two choices:

1. Condemn his own words and look even more like a phony, or
2. Stand behind them and try to color them as best he can.

The best choice is obvious.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: mitt rob-me just blew it... [Re: Enlil]
    #16874430 -

^ ^ ^ ^ ^

That.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: mitt rob-me just blew it... [Re: Enlil]
    #16874473 -

So, Enlil, you don't once cede Psilynut's main point, you derail it by distracting from it, by picking at marginal details that he admitted were casual bluster, and you sum it up by essentially calling him a clown, Steven Colbert.  You done playing?  You had your fun?  Did you change the fact that Romney's position on government entitlements is hypocritical in light of how welfare benefited his family for years?


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Re: mitt rob-me just blew it... [Re: Enlil]
    #16874483 -

What's to color?

He was asked a question regarding electioneering strategy, and he pointed out the obvious: there is a very large number of Americans who cannot be peeled away from Obama, just as there is a very large number of Americans who would rather set their hair on fire than vote for Obama. The exact number doesn't really matter. What matters is that nothing Romney says or does will persuade them to vote for him, so what's the point in wasting cycles on those folks?

He then goes on to point out another obvious fact: almost all (arguably all) of that number of Obama die-hard fan base regards the role of government and their relationship to it differently than do those who either already intend to vote for Romney or might be persuaded to do so. This isn't the first time he has pointed out that obvious fact, either. He quite calmly explained to a heckler some months ago (paraphrasing here), "Look, if you want more free stuff from the government, vote for the other guy. That's not what I'm all about."

Would he have used the exact same words in a speech to the public at large or even at a press conference? Nope. But then, who does? I know I tailor my phraseology to the audience I am addressing. Everyone does. That doesn't change the fact that Romney recognizes the obvious and is not afraid to remind his supporters of it: there are so many people who would now have to make do with less government bennies if he and Ryan get their way, that by sticking to his guns on reducing the side of government he is effectively conceding a big chunk of votes to Obama.


Phred


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Re: mitt rob-me just blew it... [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #16874499 -

I have stated no opinion about it to change.  I have no opinion to state, either.  I don't have all of the facts.  I will say that the choices of one's parents are not the choices of the children...so I don't see how Romney being against welfare is inconsistent with his parents' choice to avail themselves of it.

Further, while I do think Romney's word choices are generally horrid, I think he was speaking of a greater issue than the one being focused on by the media and romney haters.  There is something fundamentally unfair and unsustainable about having a society wherein 53% of the people pay for everyone's use of government services.

Of course, you'll simply say that I am ducking the question...I'm not.  My answer is simple: I have no opinion about whether or not Mr. Romney is more or less of a hypocrite because of this particular speech.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: mitt rob-me just blew it... [Re: Phred] * 1
    #16874548 -

Quote:
He then goes on to point out another obvious fact: almost all (arguably all) of that number of Obama die-hard fan base regards the role of government and their relationship to it differently than do those who either already intend to vote for Romney or might be persuaded to do so.

That is a nice way of altering what he actually said.


"All right, there are 47% of people who are with him, who are dependent upon the government" 

So 47% of people in the U.S. are dependent on government, and they are all Democrats?

"...the president starts of with 48, 49--he starts off with a huge number.  These are people who pay no income tax..."

So everyone in the country who doesn't pay any income taxes is a Democrat?  Democrats' entire base is the poorest 47%?


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“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: mitt rob-me just blew it... [Re: Lion]
    #16874618 -

It's hilarious how Romney always invokes class warfare, when literally the exact message he is giving to his constituents in this speech is that the poor half of America will automatically vote Democrat out of a sense of victimhood and entitlement.  Never mind the millions of conservatives who are dependent upon government and who pay no income taxes.


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: mitt rob-me just blew it... [Re: Lion]
    #16874627 -

Are they the same people? Obviously not. Romney could have spoken less confusingly. Perhaps he went on to clarify things in the missing two minutes or so of the recording. Someone more suspicious than myself might say that the missing section is rather conveniently located: right in the middle of the relevant point he is trying to make.

But the fact of the matter is that with every year that passes, the number of people who receive goodies from the government increases. It has gotten to the point now that some pretty savvy people fear the tipping point has already been reached. There are certainly more people getting money from government today than not. Are enough of those people so short-sighted that they will vote for anyone who promises to keep the government spigot wide open? Or can enough of them be persuaded that this is not in their long term interest? Romney's comments (at least, the first part of them) would seem to indicate he is a pessimist on this point.

An awful lot of people agree with him.



Phred


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Re: mitt rob-me just blew it... [Re: Phred]
    #16874677 -

Oh how the liberal brainwashed posters in this thread make me :lol:

I think Romney just showed that he has a pair

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Re: mitt rob-me just blew it... [Re: Mush 4 Brains] * 1
    #16874711 -

"I am indeed in possession of one pair of human testicles.  Therefore I am naturally inclined to express my opinions in a forthright manner." - Willard Romney


--------------------
“Strengthened by contemplation and study,
I will not fear my passions like a coward.
My body I will give to pleasures,
to diversions that I’ve dreamed of,
to the most daring erotic desires,
to the lustful impulses of my blood, without
any fear at all, for whenever I will—
and I will have the will, strengthened
as I’ll be with contemplation and study—
at the crucial moments I’ll recover
my spirit as was before: ascetic.”

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Re: mitt rob-me just blew it... [Re: Lion]
    #16874853 -

No, Enlil, I wasn't talking about your opinion, I referred to the fact you've tiresomely avoided.  Let me break it down.  It diesn't matter whether Romney has a different or opposite view from his family about government entitlements--disagreeing with your parents obviously does not make you a hypocrit--no need to school me on that.  Romney benefited vicariously, because his father benefited, from government welfare.  Now he says entitlements do not benefit people, they create dependency and entitlement, they undermine personal responsibility.  Your distractions and opinions do not alter the fact that Romney is a hypocrite with respect to this issue.  Anyway, as you know, I don't expect you to acknowledge the truth--that goes against your discipline and values as an advocate.


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Re: mitt rob-me just blew it... [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #16874875 -

How do you figure that it makes him a hypocrite?  It seems like he has formed his opinion, in part, by watching its effect on his family.

Being a hypocrite is condemning something in speech and then doing it...You claim he condemned welfare...when did he partake in it?

As far as I can see, he hasn't...his parents might have, but I've never seen anything supporting the notion that romney has filed for welfare.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: mitt rob-me just blew it... [Re: Enlil]
    #16875058 -

He started the speech by lauding his father's success as governor and corporate head of an auto company, knowing his father depended on government benefits early in life, knowing those benefits did not undermine his father's productivity and future ambitions, knowing it was a real help, as his mother explained.  In the same speech Romney goes on to distinguish people like his father, people who strive for the American dream, from "those people" who depend on government entitlement programs.  Of course, he didn't acknowledge that his father depended on such a program and benefited from it, because, like you, Romney is trained to manipulate facts and people, not acknowledge the truth.


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Re: mitt rob-me just blew it... [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #16875087 -

That's not being hypocritical.  It also doesn't seem appropriate to broadcast to the world that someone you love was on welfare.  I'm thinking that you probably would have left that out if you were talking about your parents, too.  He might also have left out the time his father puked at the kitchen table.

I don't think that one has to tell every single fact in every single speech.  That's inefficient and poor rhetoric.  You can call it dishonest if you want, but you do the same thing every day.  Otherwise, when someone asks you how you're doing, you'll say, "I have to take a shit, but I'm a bit bound up at the moment."


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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