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OfflineTeotzlcoatl
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An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society
    #7130548 - 07/05/07 12:49 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

OK so i wanna create an Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic self-sufficent Commune Society based around Agriculture and Entheogenic spirituality....Who's in???


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"We are the one's we have been waiting for"-Hopi proverb


Edited by Teotzlcoatl (07/05/07 01:49 PM)


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7130586 - 07/05/07 12:59 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Not me, thanks though. I prefer to live in a democratic republic based around science and technology.


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7131866 - 07/05/07 10:08 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Can you explain how that could even work?

To be honest I've never understood socialistic anarchism simply because it seems like an oxymoron. How do you ensure equitable distribution of wealth without a government?

Even if you make the generous assumptions that "voluntary associations" will form horizontally across society, what prevents any one of the associations from amassing wealth and power to lord over the others? What keeps the "doctors trade union" from threatening to let people die if they don't recieve 90% of all societal production in exchange?

Even if we add the more generous assumption that everyone's benevolent, randomized uneven distribution of skills will result in some trade unions being far more productive than others and thus becoming wealthier. Without anyone to measure this and redistribute wealth, you still miss the goal of equality.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I really do just want to understand the principles behind this kind of political argument.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7131877 - 07/05/07 10:10 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

yeah something like heavens gate but without the cool-aid :thumbup:

lets buy a piece of land in south america and get started :smile:


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Economist]
    #7131994 - 07/05/07 10:48 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

> yeah something like heavens gate but without the cool-aid

Jonestown had the cool-aid... heavens gate had the nike shoes... easy to confuse.

> Can you explain how that could even work?

It wouldn't...


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Seuss]
    #7132112 - 07/05/07 11:22 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Nothing really works anyway.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7132150 - 07/05/07 11:32 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/21/16 09:06 PM)


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7132157 - 07/05/07 11:34 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Of course it doesn't mean that they didn't exist. It just means the system won't exist again.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7132160 - 07/05/07 11:34 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
such a society can work, & it has for thousands of years.




Which one you talking about there, eh?


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

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OfflineTeotzlcoatl
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: implicitli]
    #7132165 - 07/05/07 11:35 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

OK well this certainly isn't a cult, and I'm no madman, It's Democratic, Jones town was a dictatorship. Heres how i could perceive it to work- You use direct Democratic processes to disturbe wealth, so it isn't REALLY anarchism, i just call it that because the government has no formal establishment, it is simply run DIRECTLY by the people. In this type of society excess wealth would be viewed as "illegal" or immoral and if it was noted that you were hoarding wealth, the people could step in and through a direct democratic vote decide weather or not to take you wealth. IF they did decide you had to much money, then your wealth could be taken and through, again another direct democratic vote the wealth could be distributed...


P.S.-
This is a VERY hard subject, creating a perfect society is not easy, I do not have all the answer, but i do believe in democracy, if we work together we can come up with the answers!


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"We are the one's we have been waiting for"-Hopi proverb


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OfflineTeotzlcoatl
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7132184 - 07/05/07 11:39 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Tassili-n-Ajjer....? Anybody heard of it? Australian Aborigines...?


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"We are the one's we have been waiting for"-Hopi proverb


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7132194 - 07/05/07 11:41 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/21/16 09:07 PM)


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7132280 - 07/05/07 12:00 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Indigenous people from around the world, but I had the Americas specifically in mind when I typed it.




Evidence has been found of trade fairs between Native American groups throughout the Americas (the fairs at Taos, Pecos, and Picuris Pueblos come to mind right off the bat).

Why would you engage in trade with other peoples unless you were looking to expand your own material wealth?

None of the tribes were incapable of supporting themselves, so it's not like trade was necessary to get by. (btw, if they WERE incapable of supporting themsevles, that would also be proof that an "anarchist" system of government doesn't work)

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but evidence of trade seems to prove that materialism was indeed an objective of Native Americans.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Economist]
    #7132320 - 07/05/07 12:12 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

There were some tribes who had a reverse materialism deal going on. Each year they would have a giant pot-luck, and the person who gave the most away was the most revered.

It's still about honour.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: implicitli]
    #7132396 - 07/05/07 12:33 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

I believe you're describing the Potlatch ceremony among the Pacific Northwest groups.

It is true that the goal of the ceremony was to give away as much as possible, and that the person who gave the most away did become the most revered.

This would be well and good, except that, pre-European arrival, slaves were routinely "given away" at Potlatch ceremonies, and a society that keeps slaves is not actually anarchist-socialist.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Economist]
    #7132631 - 07/05/07 01:44 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Oh yeah, I have no doubt that there has never been a truly anarchis-socialist society, there has certainly never been a truly democratic-capitalist society. That's the thing about political theory - it's impossible to turn ideology into practice, we can only strive towards the ideal.


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OfflineTeotzlcoatl
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: implicitli]
    #7132639 - 07/05/07 01:48 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

I don't think theres ever been a just society...I aim to create one. Politics should evolve just as humans do. And yes i do believe self-sufficiency is VERY important for Anarcho-Demo-Socialist.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7132709 - 07/05/07 02:07 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

What is your definition of just?


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7132749 - 07/05/07 02:16 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Teotzlcoatl said:
OK so i wanna create an Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic self-sufficent Commune Society based around Agriculture and Entheogenic spirituality....Who's in???




What do you do about the severe and crippling diarrhea that many people in the third world often get and many die from? How do you keep your hippy friends from shitting in your drinking water? How do you get them to work on the farm 18 hours a day without having an army to force them, like Stalin and Pol Pot?


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OfflineTeotzlcoatl
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Luddite]
    #7132970 - 07/05/07 02:47 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

you don't force anyone to do anything....problems and conflict would arise no doubt, but those problems could be fixed through direct democratic processes, by society as a whole, and not a group of rich individuals. If someone was found to be very bad for the community, the individual could be exiled from the commune.


--------------------
"We are the one's we have been waiting for"-Hopi proverb


Edited by Teotzlcoatl (07/05/07 02:48 PM)


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7132982 - 07/05/07 02:50 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Teotzlcoatl said:
If someone was found to be very bad for the community, the individual could be exiled from the commune.




Sounds like somebody winds up in charge, even just momentarily


--------------------
Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7133051 - 07/05/07 03:03 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

ultimately anarchy has and always will exist. in the sense that things will always happen no matter what arbitrary restrictions you place on them.


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Economist]
    #7133415 - 07/05/07 04:25 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
To be honest I've never understood socialistic anarchism simply because it seems like an oxymoron. How do you ensure equitable distribution of wealth without a government?





Anarchism is not a notion based on the absence of government, but the absence of what could be called official hierarchy. At least, that is one interpretation. There are many, which is surely why you're confused. "Anarchist" and "anarchy" have had a million meanings throughout the centuries, most of them negative, many meant to induce panic and a fear of chaos. Generally, people obsessed with the Hobbesian view of the state of nature--monarchists and their modern equivalent, the law and order sorts, the "unitary executive" sorts--have used these terms to mean death, pestilence, destruction, and foolish people doing everything wrong and destroying all society. Strangely enough, that used to be a view associated with democracy (and republicanism too, if you're going to nitpick).

Anarchistic socialism is basically the premise of small-scale communal life, sometimes based on a romantic vision of ancient or aboriginal systems, sometimes based on portions of "young Marx", sometimes based on Christian philosophies, et cetera. Wealth would, ideally, be a non-factor, as property (especially land) would be to some degree or another communal. That's not a system completely compatible with modern minds, and so it takes a certain philosophical commonality between the people involved.

It has worked, and does work, but on the small scale. It doesn't receive much attention because, as you might expect, it's not the kind of thing most people bother thinking about. It's not a vision appropriate to the scale of a nation, but of a village or town. It has nothing to do with Communism, or even the full spread of Marxism, which was a painful and incredibly idealistic attempt to take small-scale communal systems and export them to the largest scale possible--national and (with luck) world government. But the Cold War did poison a lot of people's minds to ideas to any measure of authentic egalitarianism. And that was Communism at its best--before it became the authoritarian dictatorship of a multinational empire.

Wealth is, by one definition--a good definition--a measure of power. Power is what buys comfort and is a measure of one's achievement. An equal distribution of power is not an undemocratic notion.


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Edited by figgusfiddus (07/05/07 04:36 PM)


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7133448 - 07/05/07 04:32 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

OneLessForeskin said:
Quote:

Teotzlcoatl said:
If someone was found to be very bad for the community, the individual could be exiled from the commune.




Sounds like somebody winds up in charge, even just momentarily




Maybe. Maybe not. Anarchism is more a direction than an absolute goal. It's not about "no order, no government, no hierarchy at all". It's usually more about "less order, less government, less hierarchy," especially when it's well-articulated and well-planned.


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7133520 - 07/05/07 04:48 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

figgusfiddus said:
It has worked, and does work, but on the small scale. It doesn't receive much attention because, as you might expect, it's not the kind of thing most people bother thinking about. It's not a vision appropriate to the scale of a nation, but of a village or town.




The question I would ask then is: How do you define "worked"?

I suspect that small anarchist communes could "work" in that there wouldn't be total chaos, but could they really provide services like modern healthcare? And if you can't provide heart-surgery does the commune actually work?


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Economist]
    #7133592 - 07/05/07 05:01 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

if you need heart surgery does you body actually work?


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: rubixcubies]
    #7133606 - 07/05/07 05:05 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Irrelevant to the conversation.


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Economist]
    #7133607 - 07/05/07 05:05 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Precisely. It's all about definitions. Which is why it's not a matter of this society being superior, just a matter of this society being functional and, perhaps for some, preferable.

These societies don't have to be technologically void, either, though a lot of people make them so in order to cut as many financial ties as possible from the outside world. Then again, some people use those ties for the benefit of the commune. It is possible, in an agricultural commune, to integrate such a society into the mainstream economy through the production of herbs, organic foods, and so on. Given that, you could actually set up some sort of functional services to provide for health care received either from doctors who have joined the commune or from outside medical professionals.

I'm not saying it's easy--I'm a proponent of progress, I like a lot of the material things society has to offer. I'm just saying it does "work" for those who prefer it. And again, there are a million different possible levels of exclusivity. This kind of society could be fully-incorporated into mainstream society, or it could be very much separated. I think the tendency is toward the latter.

Many people don't really have a problem with living "naturally", meaning forgoing a lot of the medical options available to them. There are plenty of people who go most of their lives without necessary treatments anyhow--even people who can afford them--out of sheer ignorance, fear of doctors, or lifestyle choice. The material results aren't that different in this situation.

I think this sort of system should be a welcome enunciation of the fact that achievement is wholly relative to the individual.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7134081 - 07/05/07 06:34 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

If a chicken and a half lays an egg and a half in a day and a half, how long does it take a monkey with a wooden leg to knock all the seeds out of a watermelon?

Absent a nuclear or other global holocaust no one will ever know one minute of anarchy.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7134202 - 07/05/07 06:56 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Which evidences no understanding of any relevant point made here, and even less of an understanding of what "anarchism" means in modern political thought. Thanks for the input.

If he meant "chaotic" instead of "anarchistic", he would've said it. In political theory, they're unrelated.


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OfflineTeotzlcoatl
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7134510 - 07/05/07 08:02 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Oneless nobody would be in charge...the community as a whole would hold direct Democratic votes to solve issues...the community as a whole gets to work out problems...

Rub said -"ultimately anarchy has and always will exist. in the sense that things will always happen no matter what arbitrary restrictions you place on them"

Couldn't agree more!

Figg- awesome, awesome statement, i agree completely that this could only work on a small scale, i think society is organized much better on a small scale than a large on...for me a "state" should no have more than .......20,000-100,000(?) people in it, but the smaller the better.

Econ said- "The question I would ask then is: How do you define "worked"? I suspect that small anarchist communes could "work" in that there wouldn't be total chaos, but could they really provide services like modern health care? And if you can't provide heart-surgery does the commune actually work? "

If you can do away with violence and oppression, i have no problem dying at the age of 50....It's seems people in the modern world are obsessed with living as long as possible and cannot accept the fact that one day they die, even to the point of continually and repeatedly reviving a person who is positively going to die in the very near future....for what? To prolong their suffering? Death is a natural part of life and while i think basic health care is VERY important, i think sometimes it's just better to let people die.....which would also help keep populations low, thus decreasing disorder and lessing the number of mouths that must be feed in a self-sufficient community.

Rub said- if you need heart surgery does your body actually work?

HA HA, nope....

Anybody ever read the difference between the definition for anarchy and anarchism...check it out....Anarchy is basically chaos and anarchism is the theory of no government.

So i guess I'm and Anarchism-ist.....


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7134551 - 07/05/07 08:11 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Figg- awesome, awesome statement, i agree completely that this could only work on a small scale, i think society is organized much better on a small scale than a large on...for me a "state" should no have more than .......20,000-100,000(?) people in it, but the smaller the better.




Rousseau thought even fewer. Then Marx took half his ideas and ignored that, a key part, and turned it into impractical nonsense.

The idea is that a smaller society will tend to have more values in common than a larger one, and so its decisions as a group (e.g. in a democratic vote) will be more applicable to all the citizens. Rather than having 51% of the vote rule over the other 49%, who would have voted for something completely different, you would tend to have votes that come out near-unanimous.


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Edited by figgusfiddus (07/05/07 08:27 PM)


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7134696 - 07/05/07 08:56 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

so i think it's agreed (generally) that this type of community COULD work...so who's in and where's it gonna be...?I'm thinking 500 acres of tropical island would be nice...


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7135380 - 07/05/07 11:21 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

There's too many "isms" in your system.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Silversoul]
    #7135411 - 07/05/07 11:29 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Actually there are two "istics" and one "ic".


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Economist]
    #7137010 - 07/06/07 11:45 AM (13 years, 10 days ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/21/16 09:08 PM)


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7139761 - 07/06/07 10:30 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
I've never denied materialism or trade existed among the indigenous peoples. People need materials both to live minimally, & then to increase the quality of one's life. Where have I opposed trade?




Isn't materialism antithetical to anarchism? And don't you claim that indigenous Americans lived in anarchistic societies? It seems like a society that carries materialism as a goal cannot ultimately be anarchistic.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Economist]
    #7141655 - 07/07/07 10:39 AM (13 years, 9 days ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/21/16 09:09 PM)


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7141936 - 07/07/07 12:09 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

anarchy does not work. what will keep me from proclaiming myself dictator and "nationalizing" all of your stuff?


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: wilshire]
    #7141945 - 07/07/07 12:13 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
what will keep me from proclaiming myself dictator and "nationalizing" all of your stuff?




Me doing it first. :wink:


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Redstorm]
    #7142085 - 07/07/07 12:58 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

All the citizens getting together and voting on the best way to kill your oppressive ass


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7142106 - 07/07/07 01:04 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

yep.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: wilshire]
    #7142298 - 07/07/07 02:03 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

Note- we are not simply talking about anarchy, we're talking about Democratic Socialistic ANARCHISM....look up the difference between anarchy and anarchism...


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: wilshire]
    #7142622 - 07/07/07 03:34 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/21/16 09:09 PM)


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7142648 - 07/07/07 03:42 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

Your people(?) had no government? And lots of things didn't exist among "your People". Like 70 year average life spans and technology and books, fer chrissake.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7142720 - 07/07/07 04:05 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/21/16 09:10 PM)


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7142735 - 07/07/07 04:10 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

It is and always has been human nature. "Your people" routinely made war and kept slaves. Who do you think you're kidding.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7142879 - 07/07/07 05:11 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/21/16 09:10 PM)


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7142929 - 07/07/07 05:31 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

They always have and they still do. Almost every human being wants to live under a government and everything governments do they do at the point of a gun. Violence. Domination.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7143020 - 07/07/07 05:57 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

Its not just human nature to establish dominance over other people and groups, its the nature of life. All living things compete for a finite amount of resources and the losers die. Its not nice and its not pretty, its not the way I wish it was, but it is the way of nature.

Perhaps with the evolution of consciousness one species has the potential to break fee of the cycle... maybe, if it is natures way.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: DieCommie]
    #7143037 - 07/07/07 06:03 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/21/16 09:11 PM)


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7143122 - 07/07/07 06:32 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

Note- we are not simply talking about anarchy, we're talking about Democratic Socialistic ANARCHISM....look up the difference between anarchy and anarchism...

the oxford english dictionary defines anarchism as:

"belief in the abolition of all government and the organization of society on a cooperative basis."

and anarchy as:

"1 a state of disorder due to lack of government or control. 2 a society founded on the principles of anarchism."

and that's what i'm going with as well. what are you trying to say here?


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7143190 - 07/07/07 06:48 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

Historically, among my people anyways, that didn't happen because the concepts you mentioned did not exist.

i think you mean 'prehistorically'. every single agricultural, specialist society has (unfortunately) had government.

in as much as i feel humans would be better off without government, and that ideally, no governments would exist, i am an anarchist. since that is impossible because government is inevitable and therefore necessary, i believe its object should be to make itself as small and unobtrusive as possible - i am a libertarian.

anarchy isn't going to happen. "socialistic" anarchy is even more unlikely, since now in addition to "keep your hands to yourself," already a tall order, we're asking everyone to share their stuff. "democratic" anarchy goes beyond that as just an illogical combination of terms.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: wilshire]
    #7143453 - 07/07/07 08:06 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Hey fuck you both, I'm a white man, but I'm not THE white man, just because I was born in this body makes me no different, Humanity is my people, I am a human of Earth and nothing more.

Killing people and keeping slaves is wrong period....We will never evolve that way....

Listen diecommie, This philosophy of mine may be crazy, it may be impossible what ever you wish to call it, BUT it is the ONLY society where you could say- "We are right in the way we live, we are good people, we do not foolishly waste resources, we are not destroying the natural world, we live happier lives without competition, we do not kill others, we do not exploit others, we do not have to say we're sorry or attempt to fix what we have done wrong in the past, our civilization is not oppression, I do not harm my neighbor, etc."
You say it is the nature of the life to establish domanice over other beings, yes the animal world certainly does this, are humans no better than animals? Do we not speak and read and write.....no animal does that.....IF ANY SPECIES COULD BROKE FREE OF THIS CYCLE HUMANITY WILL! We must evovle... it's evolution or oppression....


Thanks for the definitions man- I've only seen the the- anarchism as: "belief in the abolition of all government and the organization of society on a cooperative basis." and anarchy as: a state of disorder due to lack of government or control"

And i perfer to look at it that way, but YOU are correct, i suppose.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7144459 - 07/07/07 11:55 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Teotzlcoatl said:
Listen diecommie, This philosophy of mine may be crazy, it may be impossible what ever you wish to call it, BUT it is the ONLY society where you could say- "We are right in the way we live, we are good people, we do not foolishly waste resources, we are not destroying the natural world, we live happier lives without competition, we do not kill others, we do not exploit others, we do not have to say we're sorry or attempt to fix what we have done wrong in the past, our civilization is not oppression, I do not harm my neighbor, etc."




I was looking at this list of what you consider to be the values of "the perfect society" and I'm curious about several of them:

We do not foolishly waste resources - Why is this necessary? Doesn't experimentation (and not just scientific)mean that some "foolish" mistakes will be made? And wouldn't the perfect society be open to experimentation?

We live happier lives without competition - But isn't competition part of what makes us happy? Why are sports so popular if competition isn't a natural part of the human spirit?

We do not have to say we're sorry or attempt to fix what we have done wrong in the past - No one EVER has to say they are sorry, OR fix their past mistakes. Some feel inclined too, but no one ever HAS to. Would the ideal society simply not make mistakes (seems impossible), or would they simply refuse to apologize for making them?


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Economist]
    #7144934 - 07/08/07 02:13 AM (13 years, 8 days ago)

You said "We do not foolishly waste resources - Why is this necessary? Doesn't experimentation (and not just scientific)mean that some "foolish" mistakes will be made? And wouldn't the perfect society be open to experimentation?"

Yes people do foolishly use/waste resources...we're running out of oil yet our whole entire transportation system runs on it...seems foolish to me... Yes they'd be open to experimentation, guess what...the experiment about wasting resources found that if you waste them now...you won't have them later..that experiment was called capitalism....it has failed and thats why resources are dwindling...


You said " We live happier lives without competition - But isn't competition part of what makes us happy? Why are sports so popular if competition isn't a natural part of the human spirit?"

Sports are cool, arms races are not!


you said "We do not have to say we're sorry or attempt to fix what we have done wrong in the past - No one EVER has to say they are sorry, OR fix their past mistakes. Some feel inclined too, but no one ever HAS to. Would the ideal society simply not make mistakes (seems impossible), or would they simply refuse to apologize for making them?"

Individuals in the ideal society would surely make mistakes, but the society as a whole would not do things so foolish as genocide, which (Nazis, Imperialist, ...Colonist, I'm talking to you) you should say your sorry for... But in a direct Democratic society the vote weather or not to force mass migrations of native americans or kill 6 million Jews will probably not go over so well...


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7146513 - 07/08/07 01:27 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Teotzlcoatl said:
Individuals in the ideal society would surely make mistakes, but the society as a whole would not do things so foolish as genocide, which (Nazis, Imperialist, ...Colonist, I'm talking to you) you should say your sorry for... But in a direct Democratic society the vote weather or not to force mass migrations of native americans or kill 6 million Jews will probably not go over so well...




I think this is your real problem, you seem to assume that a direct democratic vote wouldn't make terrible mistakes.

Except that in June of 2002 a solid majority of Americans (around 60%) favored invading Iraq. This was clearly a mistake, and yet if it had been put to direct democratic vote, guess what would have happened.

It can get even worse on the "community level". Ideas like racism or extreme religious views can easily permeate small communities leading to TERRIBLE outcomes. From the Salem Witch Trials to the lynchings of the pre-civil-rights movement south, there are dozens of examples racially-based killings and other horrific acts.

Even when the act itself is carried out by a minority (as in lynching cases) the refusal of the majority to then hold the minority accountable is just as bad, and has also been just as historically documented.

Direct democracy does not mean a mistake-free society, my other concerns (wasting resources, and such) flow from here.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Economist]
    #7146598 - 07/08/07 01:53 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

The point is that a sufficiently small and select society that has come together of its own free will--rather than a society into which one is born without the choice--will have values in common such that democratic disfranchisement of the minority will be rare.

I.e. most votes will be near-unanimous. See Rousseau on the General Will vs. the Will of All (Social Contract). Search for "Corsica" if you are using Gutenberg. It's solid reasoning.

Anyway, this doesn't prevent mistakes, and that shouldn't be its purpose--it just creates good government. "Good government" is representative of its people, while providing them some valuable service, such as protection, or security from want. It should be the governed people who make and re-shape the government, not vice versa, and it should certainly never be one government making another, as we so often see today. Worse yet, we now tend to see one government re-shaping another, in order to change a people... and we wonder why it doesn't work.

At any rate, this would not be a utopian society, and anyone who believes otherwise is a hopeless idealist. It's not even an actual formula for a society. But it's a sound enough thought, and has principles in reality--it's just under-articulated and really under-developed.


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Edited by figgusfiddus (07/08/07 02:00 PM)


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7146627 - 07/08/07 02:00 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

I do not believe a civilizations worth should be determined by the power of it's military, the amount of land it commands, the wealth of it's banks or the technology it has created, but by the contentment of it's people.



I think it's fair to say that this type of society would be equal to or better than the current USA capitalistic republic in that respect.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7146633 - 07/08/07 02:02 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

you said- "Anyway, this doesn't prevent mistakes, and that shouldn't be its purpose--it just creates good government. "Good government" is representative of its people, while providing them some valuable service, such as protection, or security from want. It should be the governed people who make and re-shape the government, not vice versa, and it should certainly never be one government making another, as we so often see today. Worse yet, we now tend to see one government re-shaping another, in order to change a people... and we wonder why it doesn't work.

At any rate, this would not be a utopian society, and anyone who believes otherwise is a hopeless idealist. It's not even an actual formula for a society. But it's a sound enough thought, and has principles in reality--it's just under-articulated and really under-developed. "



I completely agree with you, awesome statement.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7146637 - 07/08/07 02:03 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

I think that could be a fair judgment. People can derive a lot of contentment out of simple things. Some people can, anyway--I think that's the issue.

This would be a society well-suited to a small minority of individuals from our current society. Most people would be completely out of place, and should never be expected to fit in. That element of choice--the statement of "you don't have to stay here just because you were born here"--can keep such a society healthy. Of course, that same principle isn't really followed on the international scale. :smile:


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7146724 - 07/08/07 02:28 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

So you don't believe in the necessity of some form of universal negative liberty written into a "constitution" or something for this society?

I would still argue that even like minded individuals coming together to "form" a society based on direct democracy could and would still easily result in disagreements of the most severe sort. As an exmaple I would offer the Puritan colonies in Massachusetts. The Puritans came together because they were of "like mind" and most of their votes were (as predicted) near-unanimous. But that didn't keep them from exhiling or even killing their own members - even among first-generation immigrants who had joined that society of their own volition, and not through random birth.

Without guaranteed rights and freedoms that are laid out in advance, I just don't see how to guarantee that a similar fate would hit this society.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Economist]
    #7146800 - 07/08/07 02:47 PM (13 years, 8 days ago)

Democratically-constructed constitutions are formed to keep the existing mindset solid, and to help pass it along to the next generation and to keep it from changing. They're not invented out of nowhere--they're the product of the zeitgeist.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Economist]
    #7231028 - 07/27/07 03:57 PM (12 years, 11 months ago)

They did not respect the rights of others, were oppressive and certainly not anarchist, they attempted to interfer with other lives, even what they read(spell books). People were not free to worship what the wanted, very oppressive...


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