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OfflineTeotzlcoatl
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Redstorm]
    #7142085 - 07/07/07 12:58 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

All the citizens getting together and voting on the best way to kill your oppressive ass


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7142106 - 07/07/07 01:04 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

yep.


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OfflineTeotzlcoatl
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: wilshire]
    #7142298 - 07/07/07 02:03 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Note- we are not simply talking about anarchy, we're talking about Democratic Socialistic ANARCHISM....look up the difference between anarchy and anarchism...


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: wilshire]
    #7142622 - 07/07/07 03:34 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/21/16 09:09 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7142648 - 07/07/07 03:42 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Your people(?) had no government? And lots of things didn't exist among "your People". Like 70 year average life spans and technology and books, fer chrissake.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7142720 - 07/07/07 04:05 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/21/16 09:10 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7142735 - 07/07/07 04:10 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

It is and always has been human nature. "Your people" routinely made war and kept slaves. Who do you think you're kidding.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7142879 - 07/07/07 05:11 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/21/16 09:10 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7142929 - 07/07/07 05:31 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

They always have and they still do. Almost every human being wants to live under a government and everything governments do they do at the point of a gun. Violence. Domination.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7143020 - 07/07/07 05:57 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Its not just human nature to establish dominance over other people and groups, its the nature of life. All living things compete for a finite amount of resources and the losers die. Its not nice and its not pretty, its not the way I wish it was, but it is the way of nature.

Perhaps with the evolution of consciousness one species has the potential to break fee of the cycle... maybe, if it is natures way.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: DieCommie]
    #7143037 - 07/07/07 06:03 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

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Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/21/16 09:11 PM)


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7143122 - 07/07/07 06:32 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Note- we are not simply talking about anarchy, we're talking about Democratic Socialistic ANARCHISM....look up the difference between anarchy and anarchism...

the oxford english dictionary defines anarchism as:

"belief in the abolition of all government and the organization of society on a cooperative basis."

and anarchy as:

"1 a state of disorder due to lack of government or control. 2 a society founded on the principles of anarchism."

and that's what i'm going with as well. what are you trying to say here?


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7143190 - 07/07/07 06:48 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Historically, among my people anyways, that didn't happen because the concepts you mentioned did not exist.

i think you mean 'prehistorically'. every single agricultural, specialist society has (unfortunately) had government.

in as much as i feel humans would be better off without government, and that ideally, no governments would exist, i am an anarchist. since that is impossible because government is inevitable and therefore necessary, i believe its object should be to make itself as small and unobtrusive as possible - i am a libertarian.

anarchy isn't going to happen. "socialistic" anarchy is even more unlikely, since now in addition to "keep your hands to yourself," already a tall order, we're asking everyone to share their stuff. "democratic" anarchy goes beyond that as just an illogical combination of terms.


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OfflineTeotzlcoatl
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: wilshire]
    #7143453 - 07/07/07 08:06 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Hey fuck you both, I'm a white man, but I'm not THE white man, just because I was born in this body makes me no different, Humanity is my people, I am a human of Earth and nothing more.

Killing people and keeping slaves is wrong period....We will never evolve that way....

Listen diecommie, This philosophy of mine may be crazy, it may be impossible what ever you wish to call it, BUT it is the ONLY society where you could say- "We are right in the way we live, we are good people, we do not foolishly waste resources, we are not destroying the natural world, we live happier lives without competition, we do not kill others, we do not exploit others, we do not have to say we're sorry or attempt to fix what we have done wrong in the past, our civilization is not oppression, I do not harm my neighbor, etc."
You say it is the nature of the life to establish domanice over other beings, yes the animal world certainly does this, are humans no better than animals? Do we not speak and read and write.....no animal does that.....IF ANY SPECIES COULD BROKE FREE OF THIS CYCLE HUMANITY WILL! We must evovle... it's evolution or oppression....


Thanks for the definitions man- I've only seen the the- anarchism as: "belief in the abolition of all government and the organization of society on a cooperative basis." and anarchy as: a state of disorder due to lack of government or control"

And i perfer to look at it that way, but YOU are correct, i suppose.


--------------------
"We are the one's we have been waiting for"-Hopi proverb


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7144459 - 07/07/07 11:55 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Teotzlcoatl said:
Listen diecommie, This philosophy of mine may be crazy, it may be impossible what ever you wish to call it, BUT it is the ONLY society where you could say- "We are right in the way we live, we are good people, we do not foolishly waste resources, we are not destroying the natural world, we live happier lives without competition, we do not kill others, we do not exploit others, we do not have to say we're sorry or attempt to fix what we have done wrong in the past, our civilization is not oppression, I do not harm my neighbor, etc."




I was looking at this list of what you consider to be the values of "the perfect society" and I'm curious about several of them:

We do not foolishly waste resources - Why is this necessary? Doesn't experimentation (and not just scientific)mean that some "foolish" mistakes will be made? And wouldn't the perfect society be open to experimentation?

We live happier lives without competition - But isn't competition part of what makes us happy? Why are sports so popular if competition isn't a natural part of the human spirit?

We do not have to say we're sorry or attempt to fix what we have done wrong in the past - No one EVER has to say they are sorry, OR fix their past mistakes. Some feel inclined too, but no one ever HAS to. Would the ideal society simply not make mistakes (seems impossible), or would they simply refuse to apologize for making them?


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OfflineTeotzlcoatl
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Economist]
    #7144934 - 07/08/07 02:13 AM (13 years, 11 days ago)

You said "We do not foolishly waste resources - Why is this necessary? Doesn't experimentation (and not just scientific)mean that some "foolish" mistakes will be made? And wouldn't the perfect society be open to experimentation?"

Yes people do foolishly use/waste resources...we're running out of oil yet our whole entire transportation system runs on it...seems foolish to me... Yes they'd be open to experimentation, guess what...the experiment about wasting resources found that if you waste them now...you won't have them later..that experiment was called capitalism....it has failed and thats why resources are dwindling...


You said " We live happier lives without competition - But isn't competition part of what makes us happy? Why are sports so popular if competition isn't a natural part of the human spirit?"

Sports are cool, arms races are not!


you said "We do not have to say we're sorry or attempt to fix what we have done wrong in the past - No one EVER has to say they are sorry, OR fix their past mistakes. Some feel inclined too, but no one ever HAS to. Would the ideal society simply not make mistakes (seems impossible), or would they simply refuse to apologize for making them?"

Individuals in the ideal society would surely make mistakes, but the society as a whole would not do things so foolish as genocide, which (Nazis, Imperialist, ...Colonist, I'm talking to you) you should say your sorry for... But in a direct Democratic society the vote weather or not to force mass migrations of native americans or kill 6 million Jews will probably not go over so well...


--------------------
"We are the one's we have been waiting for"-Hopi proverb


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7146513 - 07/08/07 01:27 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Teotzlcoatl said:
Individuals in the ideal society would surely make mistakes, but the society as a whole would not do things so foolish as genocide, which (Nazis, Imperialist, ...Colonist, I'm talking to you) you should say your sorry for... But in a direct Democratic society the vote weather or not to force mass migrations of native americans or kill 6 million Jews will probably not go over so well...




I think this is your real problem, you seem to assume that a direct democratic vote wouldn't make terrible mistakes.

Except that in June of 2002 a solid majority of Americans (around 60%) favored invading Iraq. This was clearly a mistake, and yet if it had been put to direct democratic vote, guess what would have happened.

It can get even worse on the "community level". Ideas like racism or extreme religious views can easily permeate small communities leading to TERRIBLE outcomes. From the Salem Witch Trials to the lynchings of the pre-civil-rights movement south, there are dozens of examples racially-based killings and other horrific acts.

Even when the act itself is carried out by a minority (as in lynching cases) the refusal of the majority to then hold the minority accountable is just as bad, and has also been just as historically documented.

Direct democracy does not mean a mistake-free society, my other concerns (wasting resources, and such) flow from here.


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Economist]
    #7146598 - 07/08/07 01:53 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

The point is that a sufficiently small and select society that has come together of its own free will--rather than a society into which one is born without the choice--will have values in common such that democratic disfranchisement of the minority will be rare.

I.e. most votes will be near-unanimous. See Rousseau on the General Will vs. the Will of All (Social Contract). Search for "Corsica" if you are using Gutenberg. It's solid reasoning.

Anyway, this doesn't prevent mistakes, and that shouldn't be its purpose--it just creates good government. "Good government" is representative of its people, while providing them some valuable service, such as protection, or security from want. It should be the governed people who make and re-shape the government, not vice versa, and it should certainly never be one government making another, as we so often see today. Worse yet, we now tend to see one government re-shaping another, in order to change a people... and we wonder why it doesn't work.

At any rate, this would not be a utopian society, and anyone who believes otherwise is a hopeless idealist. It's not even an actual formula for a society. But it's a sound enough thought, and has principles in reality--it's just under-articulated and really under-developed.


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Edited by figgusfiddus (07/08/07 02:00 PM)


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OfflineTeotzlcoatl
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7146627 - 07/08/07 02:00 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

I do not believe a civilizations worth should be determined by the power of it's military, the amount of land it commands, the wealth of it's banks or the technology it has created, but by the contentment of it's people.



I think it's fair to say that this type of society would be equal to or better than the current USA capitalistic republic in that respect.


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OfflineTeotzlcoatl
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7146633 - 07/08/07 02:02 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

you said- "Anyway, this doesn't prevent mistakes, and that shouldn't be its purpose--it just creates good government. "Good government" is representative of its people, while providing them some valuable service, such as protection, or security from want. It should be the governed people who make and re-shape the government, not vice versa, and it should certainly never be one government making another, as we so often see today. Worse yet, we now tend to see one government re-shaping another, in order to change a people... and we wonder why it doesn't work.

At any rate, this would not be a utopian society, and anyone who believes otherwise is a hopeless idealist. It's not even an actual formula for a society. But it's a sound enough thought, and has principles in reality--it's just under-articulated and really under-developed. "



I completely agree with you, awesome statement.


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