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Offlinejohnnyfive
Burning withCircles!
Registered: 07/02/02
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Re: You May Already Be An Anarchist. [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #946201 - 10/09/02 03:47 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I don't know the exact text but hitler said somthing like "Heavly structured lifestyles, with every thing taught to you or told to you, reduces the need to think for yourself"


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And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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Offlinefrogsheath
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Re: You May Already Be An Anarchist. [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #946207 - 10/09/02 03:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I think perhaps it can be worked towards. After all, America is more of an ideal than anything else no?


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Registered: 06/03/02
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Re: You May Already Be An Anarchist. [Re: frogsheath]
    #946223 - 10/09/02 03:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

America is an ideal gone bad. Of course anarchism can be sought after.


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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: You May Already Be An Anarchist. [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #946257 - 10/09/02 04:09 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

That thread you posted (from guerillanews.com) illustrates the inherent contradiction in ALL the anarchist organizations out there: every one I've ever come across insists that anarchy says you have the right to do anything you want, except keep the stuff you produce. Without exception, every anarchist I've ever met says private property is not to be allowed. All property must be owned collectively, or it isn't really anarchy.

Apparently this is their way of getting around the necessity of "coercive hierarchical structures" such as police and courts -- if no one owns anything, there is nothing to steal, and therefore no possible way that robbery or fraud can exist. Am I the only one who finds this absurd?

WHY is it necessary to add that proviso -- private property is forbidden -- to what is essentially a very basic concept; an anarchist society is a society with no government? The answer is very simple; because to admit that private property is essential for individual survival (and it is) is to admit that agents with the delegated authority to prevent others from usurping your means of survival are necessary. Once you admit this fact (and it is a fact), the whole anarchist house of cards collapses.

pinky





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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: You May Already Be An Anarchist. [Re: Phred]
    #946298 - 10/09/02 04:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

People need to understand the 'big picture' before even attempting anarchy. Evolution before revolution.


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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: You May Already Be An Anarchist. [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #946332 - 10/09/02 04:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

.....I guess I should add that by the 'big picture,' I mean that bliss is available here and now on earth. It is up to us to make it work.


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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: You May Already Be An Anarchist. [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #946343 - 10/09/02 04:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

People need to understand the 'big picture' before even attempting anarchy. Evolution before revolution.

I believe anyone who has spent more than a few minutes thinking about the "big picture" will come to the conclusion that anarchy is not a realistic option for the species Homo sapiens, so it is undeniably true that "evolution before revolution" is a prerequisite.

Maybe a new species, Homo superior, will one day emerge and find themselves capable of surviving in an anarchistic society. We'll never know, will we?

pinky


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Registered: 06/03/02
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Re: You May Already Be An Anarchist. [Re: Phred]
    #946354 - 10/09/02 04:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

That is why we shall evolve into the Homo superior. I agree with you in saying that anarchy is just a fantasy for Homo sapiens. :wink:


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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: You May Already Be An Anarchist. [Re: Phred]
    #946460 - 10/09/02 05:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

That thread you posted (from guerillanews.com) illustrates the inherent contradiction in ALL the anarchist organizations out there: every one I've ever come across insists that anarchy says you have the right to do anything you want, except keep the stuff you produce.



Such organizations are not truly anarchists, for they are advocating a type of organization which takes from people who produce - in essence this is a type of government. Here are a couple links to anarchist sites which do not advocate taking from those who produce...

anti-state.com
no treason


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineRemy
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Re: You May Already Be An Anarchist. [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #946852 - 10/09/02 06:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

In reply to:

Anarchy still needs some form of order to work. If anarchy were to fail it would then be chaos.




Thats why I said anarchy only exsists on certain levels. If you are talking about government in terms of people, then anarchy is an interesting theory, but nevertheless impossible. When you call yourself an anarchist, you are saying you are without government, but in fact it is you who is governing yourself, therefore creating an oxymorononic statement. Now the "Anarchists" that exsist now, are not true anarchists by the definition of the word, because it is impossible for true Anarchy to exsist. However, "anarchists" use the principles of Anarchy, combined with many ideals of socialism, in order to organize their movement.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
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Re: You May Already Be An Anarchist. [Re: Phred]
    #947286 - 10/09/02 08:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

He was found guilty of fraud. He broke the law.

The government is the only body capable of exerting some control on corporate behaviour. Without it - the kind of criminals who run Enron (believe me, the directors of Enron arn't unique) would have complete control. Does that sound like a good idea to you?

No one rounded up those children at the point of a gun and frogmarched them into the factories. The sad fact is that for them and their families, those shitty jobs are the best option available for keeping themselves alive.

Without government laws (that unions fought and died for) these conditions would be re-introduced for all of us. Once all government control was gone they could start paying americans 2 cents an hour. The reason you wern't working up a chimney when you were 7 years old isn't by the kindness of a corporate director. It was because brave men fought and died in the face of brutal oppression to give you that right. And don't you ever forget it.

the owners of the factories? In a Laissez-faire Capitalist society, murder is against the law and murderers are punished. Why are these murderers in these Southeast Asian countries not being punished?

You tell me. I imagine massive payments and backhanders to corrupt officials has something to do with it.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinepostalboy
I'm not myfucking khaki's!
Registered: 06/07/02
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Re: You May Already Be An Anarchist. [Re: Remy]
    #953245 - 10/11/02 06:39 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Thats why I said anarchy only exsists on certain levels. If you are talking about government in terms of people, then anarchy is an interesting theory, but nevertheless impossible. When you call yourself an anarchist, you are saying you are without government, but in fact it is you who is governing yourself, therefore creating an oxymorononic statement.

Great point.  I recently read in a novel about a guy who lived outside of the government.  He had no official name, soc sec #, etc.  He didn't follow any laws he thought unnecessary and only followed his own code of honor.  Another character called him an anarchist.  His reply.
  "I like to think of myself as a sovereign state." 
  Genius.  :smile:  I would also like to be a sovereign state.   


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"You people voted for Hubert Humphrey, and you killed Jesus." F and L in L.V.


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Offlinejohnnyfive
Burning withCircles!
Registered: 07/02/02
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Re: You May Already Be An Anarchist. [Re: postalboy]
    #956185 - 10/13/02 01:12 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

In reply to:

.....I guess I should add that by the 'big picture,' I mean that bliss is available here and now on earth. It is up to us to make it work.






Yes very true, many will sit around and think "well its all in gods hands". SHIT!!!!
Theyll think they are powerless to make things different. Thanks clubbshubb!

Alex321: Your say that people can't govern there selfs, that it requires that kinda goverment control? The worlds goverments work for corperations, that remark with "if there was no goverment that corperations would be makeing us work for like 2 cents and hour" Thats sooo wrong and warped i don't know where to begin.

In this day and age, the people have been reduced to a child like state and we require guidence and control from goverments, like our parents. Im not saying we need NO goverment, i say we need a SMALL goverment to work FOR THE PEOPLE. ill repeat FOR THE PEOPLE! Not for something else like corperations.


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: You May Already Be An Anarchist. [Re: johnnyfive]
    #956230 - 10/13/02 01:43 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

if there was no goverment that corperations would be makeing us work for like 2 cents and hour

They're already doing it in south east asia, mexico and latin america etc. Without the same employment laws the unions got for western workers the corporations use workers as slaves. Just like they did in the west in the 1800's.

I'm not saying government is necessarily a good thing. But the only thing keeping the corporations off your ass right now is government employment laws. Without those our children would be working 21 hour days in Nike factories right now. The government can't (at the moment) see a way of removing those rights from us without causing public disorder.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlinefrogsheath
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Re: You May Already Be An Anarchist. [Re: Xlea321]
    #956457 - 10/13/02 04:57 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I agree with Remy: anarchism exists on various levels. I interpret it as a way of life--and a healthy one considering how increasingly interdependent and singularly vulnerable technological society has become. The anarchistic way of life seeks autonomy, self-sufficiency, individualism, liberty and freedom.
As a social system it may be impractical now but in terms of evolution it seems like the logical next level for a society based on freedom. A "new world order" is right around the bend nonetheless. I don't think the average person (myself included) is quite ready for it (whatever the "order" is). Change has been accelerating at a higher rate than society can adapt to.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
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Re: You May Already Be An Anarchist. [Re: frogsheath]
    #956491 - 10/13/02 05:40 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Just depends whether the world gets a second chance after capitalism. The world cant sustain capitalism for much longer - destroying the planet for short-term profit simply can't work on a planet the earths size with such limited resources.

The corporations will die eventually - it's just a question of how much of the planet is going to be left by then.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: You May Already Be An Anarchist. [Re: frogsheath]
    #956677 - 10/13/02 10:11 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You all are making excellent points. Anarchy is a way of life. I have to say that anarchy does need some form of a 'government'; but I do not like calling it that. I don't think that some form of order should labeled as a government. Cooperation is mandatory for anything to work, especially a peaceful revolution\evolution. We can have a peaceful society without a government; but we cannot have one without cooperation. Look at the world today, there is not too much cooperation\understanding taking place. So if you like thinking of cooperation between beings as a government, then there will never be no government.

Cool thread, peace, Trev :grin:


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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: You May Already Be An Anarchist. [Re: johnnyfive]
    #956679 - 10/13/02 10:12 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Oh yeah......
Johnnyfive, we are the hands of god. :laugh:


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Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: You May Already Be An Anarchist. [Re: ChubbSubb]
    #956940 - 10/13/02 12:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"I have to say that anarchy does need some form of a 'government'; but I do not like calling it that."

Then it's no longer anarchy. I think the guy who started this thread has it backwards, there aren't lots of people who are anarchists without realizing it, there are lots of people who call themselves anarchists who don't realize what anarchy is. They're living in a punk rock fantasy of anarchy, not realizing that true anarchy is impossible to maintain and extremely unpleasant. A film negative of communism.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineChubbSubb
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Re: You May Already Be An Anarchist. [Re: Phluck]
    #957183 - 10/13/02 02:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

We all just have a different concept of what we think anarchy is. All i know is that it could be better.


--------------------
Those who know do not speak.
Those who speak do not know.


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