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InvisibleOneMoreRobot3021
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7132982 - 07/05/07 02:50 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Teotzlcoatl said:
If someone was found to be very bad for the community, the individual could be exiled from the commune.




Sounds like somebody winds up in charge, even just momentarily


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Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.

-Erik Davis


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Offlinerubixcubies
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7133051 - 07/05/07 03:03 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

ultimately anarchy has and always will exist. in the sense that things will always happen no matter what arbitrary restrictions you place on them.


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Economist]
    #7133415 - 07/05/07 04:25 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Economist said:
To be honest I've never understood socialistic anarchism simply because it seems like an oxymoron. How do you ensure equitable distribution of wealth without a government?





Anarchism is not a notion based on the absence of government, but the absence of what could be called official hierarchy. At least, that is one interpretation. There are many, which is surely why you're confused. "Anarchist" and "anarchy" have had a million meanings throughout the centuries, most of them negative, many meant to induce panic and a fear of chaos. Generally, people obsessed with the Hobbesian view of the state of nature--monarchists and their modern equivalent, the law and order sorts, the "unitary executive" sorts--have used these terms to mean death, pestilence, destruction, and foolish people doing everything wrong and destroying all society. Strangely enough, that used to be a view associated with democracy (and republicanism too, if you're going to nitpick).

Anarchistic socialism is basically the premise of small-scale communal life, sometimes based on a romantic vision of ancient or aboriginal systems, sometimes based on portions of "young Marx", sometimes based on Christian philosophies, et cetera. Wealth would, ideally, be a non-factor, as property (especially land) would be to some degree or another communal. That's not a system completely compatible with modern minds, and so it takes a certain philosophical commonality between the people involved.

It has worked, and does work, but on the small scale. It doesn't receive much attention because, as you might expect, it's not the kind of thing most people bother thinking about. It's not a vision appropriate to the scale of a nation, but of a village or town. It has nothing to do with Communism, or even the full spread of Marxism, which was a painful and incredibly idealistic attempt to take small-scale communal systems and export them to the largest scale possible--national and (with luck) world government. But the Cold War did poison a lot of people's minds to ideas to any measure of authentic egalitarianism. And that was Communism at its best--before it became the authoritarian dictatorship of a multinational empire.

Wealth is, by one definition--a good definition--a measure of power. Power is what buys comfort and is a measure of one's achievement. An equal distribution of power is not an undemocratic notion.


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Edited by figgusfiddus (07/05/07 04:36 PM)


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: OneMoreRobot3021]
    #7133448 - 07/05/07 04:32 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

OneLessForeskin said:
Quote:

Teotzlcoatl said:
If someone was found to be very bad for the community, the individual could be exiled from the commune.




Sounds like somebody winds up in charge, even just momentarily




Maybe. Maybe not. Anarchism is more a direction than an absolute goal. It's not about "no order, no government, no hierarchy at all". It's usually more about "less order, less government, less hierarchy," especially when it's well-articulated and well-planned.


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7133520 - 07/05/07 04:48 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

figgusfiddus said:
It has worked, and does work, but on the small scale. It doesn't receive much attention because, as you might expect, it's not the kind of thing most people bother thinking about. It's not a vision appropriate to the scale of a nation, but of a village or town.




The question I would ask then is: How do you define "worked"?

I suspect that small anarchist communes could "work" in that there wouldn't be total chaos, but could they really provide services like modern healthcare? And if you can't provide heart-surgery does the commune actually work?


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Economist]
    #7133592 - 07/05/07 05:01 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

if you need heart surgery does you body actually work?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: rubixcubies]
    #7133606 - 07/05/07 05:05 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Irrelevant to the conversation.


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Economist]
    #7133607 - 07/05/07 05:05 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Precisely. It's all about definitions. Which is why it's not a matter of this society being superior, just a matter of this society being functional and, perhaps for some, preferable.

These societies don't have to be technologically void, either, though a lot of people make them so in order to cut as many financial ties as possible from the outside world. Then again, some people use those ties for the benefit of the commune. It is possible, in an agricultural commune, to integrate such a society into the mainstream economy through the production of herbs, organic foods, and so on. Given that, you could actually set up some sort of functional services to provide for health care received either from doctors who have joined the commune or from outside medical professionals.

I'm not saying it's easy--I'm a proponent of progress, I like a lot of the material things society has to offer. I'm just saying it does "work" for those who prefer it. And again, there are a million different possible levels of exclusivity. This kind of society could be fully-incorporated into mainstream society, or it could be very much separated. I think the tendency is toward the latter.

Many people don't really have a problem with living "naturally", meaning forgoing a lot of the medical options available to them. There are plenty of people who go most of their lives without necessary treatments anyhow--even people who can afford them--out of sheer ignorance, fear of doctors, or lifestyle choice. The material results aren't that different in this situation.

I think this sort of system should be a welcome enunciation of the fact that achievement is wholly relative to the individual.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7134081 - 07/05/07 06:34 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

If a chicken and a half lays an egg and a half in a day and a half, how long does it take a monkey with a wooden leg to knock all the seeds out of a watermelon?

Absent a nuclear or other global holocaust no one will ever know one minute of anarchy.


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: zappaisgod]
    #7134202 - 07/05/07 06:56 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Which evidences no understanding of any relevant point made here, and even less of an understanding of what "anarchism" means in modern political thought. Thanks for the input.

If he meant "chaotic" instead of "anarchistic", he would've said it. In political theory, they're unrelated.


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OfflineTeotzlcoatl
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7134510 - 07/05/07 08:02 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Oneless nobody would be in charge...the community as a whole would hold direct Democratic votes to solve issues...the community as a whole gets to work out problems...

Rub said -"ultimately anarchy has and always will exist. in the sense that things will always happen no matter what arbitrary restrictions you place on them"

Couldn't agree more!

Figg- awesome, awesome statement, i agree completely that this could only work on a small scale, i think society is organized much better on a small scale than a large on...for me a "state" should no have more than .......20,000-100,000(?) people in it, but the smaller the better.

Econ said- "The question I would ask then is: How do you define "worked"? I suspect that small anarchist communes could "work" in that there wouldn't be total chaos, but could they really provide services like modern health care? And if you can't provide heart-surgery does the commune actually work? "

If you can do away with violence and oppression, i have no problem dying at the age of 50....It's seems people in the modern world are obsessed with living as long as possible and cannot accept the fact that one day they die, even to the point of continually and repeatedly reviving a person who is positively going to die in the very near future....for what? To prolong their suffering? Death is a natural part of life and while i think basic health care is VERY important, i think sometimes it's just better to let people die.....which would also help keep populations low, thus decreasing disorder and lessing the number of mouths that must be feed in a self-sufficient community.

Rub said- if you need heart surgery does your body actually work?

HA HA, nope....

Anybody ever read the difference between the definition for anarchy and anarchism...check it out....Anarchy is basically chaos and anarchism is the theory of no government.

So i guess I'm and Anarchism-ist.....


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Offlinefiggusfiddus
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7134551 - 07/05/07 08:11 PM (13 years, 11 days ago)

Quote:

Figg- awesome, awesome statement, i agree completely that this could only work on a small scale, i think society is organized much better on a small scale than a large on...for me a "state" should no have more than .......20,000-100,000(?) people in it, but the smaller the better.




Rousseau thought even fewer. Then Marx took half his ideas and ignored that, a key part, and turned it into impractical nonsense.

The idea is that a smaller society will tend to have more values in common than a larger one, and so its decisions as a group (e.g. in a democratic vote) will be more applicable to all the citizens. Rather than having 51% of the vote rule over the other 49%, who would have voted for something completely different, you would tend to have votes that come out near-unanimous.


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Edited by figgusfiddus (07/05/07 08:27 PM)


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OfflineTeotzlcoatl
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: figgusfiddus]
    #7134696 - 07/05/07 08:56 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

so i think it's agreed (generally) that this type of community COULD work...so who's in and where's it gonna be...?I'm thinking 500 acres of tropical island would be nice...


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7135380 - 07/05/07 11:21 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

There's too many "isms" in your system.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Silversoul]
    #7135411 - 07/05/07 11:29 PM (13 years, 10 days ago)

Actually there are two "istics" and one "ic".


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Economist]
    #7137010 - 07/06/07 11:45 AM (13 years, 10 days ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/21/16 09:08 PM)


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OfflineEconomist
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #7139761 - 07/06/07 10:30 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
I've never denied materialism or trade existed among the indigenous peoples. People need materials both to live minimally, & then to increase the quality of one's life. Where have I opposed trade?




Isn't materialism antithetical to anarchism? And don't you claim that indigenous Americans lived in anarchistic societies? It seems like a society that carries materialism as a goal cannot ultimately be anarchistic.


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Economist]
    #7141655 - 07/07/07 10:39 AM (13 years, 9 days ago)

---


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (11/21/16 09:09 PM)


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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: Teotzlcoatl]
    #7141936 - 07/07/07 12:09 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

anarchy does not work. what will keep me from proclaiming myself dictator and "nationalizing" all of your stuff?


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: An Anarchistic Socialistic Democratic Society [Re: wilshire]
    #7141945 - 07/07/07 12:13 PM (13 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
what will keep me from proclaiming myself dictator and "nationalizing" all of your stuff?




Me doing it first. :wink:


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