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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #16718493 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
imachavel said:
Hey I hear you can vote early in some states? Is there another way to vote early besides online?


I didn't know any states allowed online voting!?!  I'd take advantage of it if it's available.


I wouldn't, good way to get your vote lost. Online? :lol: but then I guess you could vote online then go vote in the polls later, if your vote gets lost on one end they can't revoke you for voting twice :shrug:


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: DieCommie]
    #16718513 -

DieCommie said:
That sounds like a moral judgement of the two hundred million who are spending their money on breath medicine rather than their fellow man.  And you are implying we should not have the right to choose if we care more about our own breath vs one hundred thousandth of a cure for somebody?  Looks like you just want people to have the same morals as you rather than being moral in general.  Nothing there is unintended, its just not what you like.


if you had replaced the word "breath" with "bible", then I'd agree with you, otherwise I disagree with you


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: ChuangTzu]
    #16718528 -

ChuangTzu said:
  You are free to convince people using reason and persuasion to contribute to any cause you want. 


This sounds more like a statement of a socialist or communist government then it does a statement about the free market. But I'm not going to quote you out of context, because I actually read the whole thing you said, and know you were trying to exemplify a point, and that there was more to what you said then just this quote.

You explained the rest with more detail, but this quote by itself sounds like something anybody with a gun and power would say. I hope the free market doesn't contradict terms that actually define the meaning of "free"


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: imachavel]
    #16719840 -

Quote:
As DieCommie said, that is a judgement of the people spending money on their own breathe rather contributing to treat someone else's disease much more than it is a judgement again the actions of the drug company.

It is not immoral for the drug company to choose to serve their customers.�

The great thing about the free market is that if society in general wants to treat the 200 million diseased people, they are free to do so.� You are free to convince people using reason and persuasion to contribute to any cause you want.� If somebody still does not wish to contribute to your cause, you aren't free to forcibly take their money anyway for your purposes.�

If you really care about the n million people suffering from ____ disease, you will get out in the streets and talk to people, go door to door, start an organization, put ads on billboards, etc. to convince people to voluntarily give money to your cause.� So many people just take the easy way out and say a law should be passed making it so.� It's sick.


---

You seem to think it is perfectly acceptable for people to thoughtfully establish and actively maintain an economic system that advantages the powerful, tends to consolidate wealth, and selects in favor of numbers over moral principles when the two are not aligned.  This is a man made system.  It's invented, not natural.  You're good with that system, with those features--don't mess with it.  But, for some reason, placing a framework of limits and incentives on this system to better affect the common good is anathema to you.  Laws that established the amoral system we have in place go unnoticed by you, but laws that favor people's health and happiness make you "sick ".  Our current, man-made system for trading value that has many moral defects, as I illustrated, seems, nevertheless, perfectly good, dropped from heaven, and cannot be criticized or improved, while no system should be purposely established to benefit people.  Instead, you suggest people should take individual initiative as opposed to forging collective and systemic economic solutions to human suffering.  The current system which is supported by politicians, laws, regulations, courts, government agencies, currency, banks, and more than we know, this "free market" is good, but people should not organize a system, or change a system, to help others--each individual person should get off his lazy ass and convince other people to get off their lazy asses to help people.  Why, in your head, is it Okay for people to organize to create and maintain one type of system of human interaction, but it makes you sick for them to organize to alter, improve, or create a better kind of system?  It appears to me that you, and conservatives like you, have some sort of unquestionable religious faith in the goodness & infallibility of "The Free Market".


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Edited by Not Quite Social (08/18/12 12:23 PM)

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #16721376 -

> It's invented, not natural.

Actually, it is very natural.  Life is based upon survival of the fittest.  Greed is human nature.  You can pretend that humans are somehow superior, but it simply isn't true.  When you create an artificial economic system, such as communism, where "everybody is equal" and "the good of many outweigh the needs of the few", the system will always fail with a few greedy people at the top living in luxury at the expense to the masses.  Look at China's ruling elite, or Cuba's ruling elite, or North Korea's ruling elite... the ruling elite live in luxury while their people starve.  At least with capitalism, everybody has a chance to make it to the top.


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Just another spore in the wind.

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #16721463 -

Not Quite Social said:
You seem to think it is perfectly acceptable for people to thoughtfully establish and actively maintain an economic system that advantages the powerful, tends to consolidate wealth, and selects in favor of numbers over moral principles when the two are not aligned. 


That isn't true at all.  I don't think the government should actively maintain the economic system at all.  They should only provide the framework within which individuals can freely associate and trade with each-other without coercion.

Quote:
This is a man made system.


Such is true with just about everything.

Quote:
It's invented, not natural.


So what? 

Quote:
You're good with that system, with those features--don't mess with it.


No, actually, I'm not good with the current system.  I think the government is far too involved in the economy and should be much more hands off.  There is a lot that should be changed.

Quote:
But, for some reason, placing a framework of limits and incentives on this system to better affect the common good is anathema to you.


I disagree that the framework you speak of would do anything for the common good.  The system that is best for the common good is the one in which no party has the power to use violence or the threat of violence to effect what they believe to be, or proclaim to be, the common good.

Quote:
Laws that established the amoral system we have in place go unnoticed by you, but laws that favor people's health and happiness make you "sick ".


What "amoral laws" go unnoticed by me?  I can list a crapload of shitty laws right now that I have definitely taken notice of.  Using violence to further your view of what is better for mankind, or what benefits you, makes me sick.  Those laws do not favor people in general's health or happiness. 

Quote:
Our current, man-made system for trading value that has many moral defects, as I illustrated, seems, nevertheless, perfectly good, dropped from heaven, and cannot be criticized or improved, while no system should be purposely established to benefit people. 


If you say so.

Quote:
Instead, you suggest people should take individual initiative as opposed to forging collective and systemic economic solutions to human suffering.


None of those things I suggested need be done alone.  You are free to form all of the groups, committees, organizations, non-profits, tribal councils or whatever you want in order to solve problems.  The only difference in what I'm proposing and what you're proposing is that you want to take the easy way out and just force everyone to contribute to your plan instead of convincing that your plan is a good one.

Quote:
The current system which is supported by politicians, laws, regulations, courts, government agencies, currency, banks, and more than we know, this "free market" is good,


We hardly live in a free market now. 

Quote:
but people should not organize a system, or change a system, to help others


Again, if you say so...

Quote:
--each individual person should get off his lazy ass and convince other people to get off their lazy asses to help people.


Once one person convinces another person to go along with their idea, is it still an individual acting?  What is the difference between 100 million people voluntarily acting to fund AIDS research, and a government taking money from 100 million people and giving it to AIDS research (hint:violence)? 

Quote:
Why, in your head, is it Okay for people to organize to create and maintain one type of system of human interaction, but it makes you sick for them to organize to alter, improve, or create a better kind of system?


Because the kind of system you propose requires gun-toting imbeciles running around making sure everyone is on-board with your plan and the kind of system I propose doesn't.

Quote:
It appears to me that you, and conservatives like you, have some sort of unquestionable religious faith in the goodness & infallibility of "The Free Market".


It seems like you (and communists like you?) have some sort of unquestionable religious faith in the goodness and infallibility of the ruling party.

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Seuss]
    #16721471 -

haha humans I evolved fuck a human you all still fighting about this and that rabble rabble rabble

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: BoomerMan420]
    #16721813 -

BoomerMan420 said:
haha humans I evolved fuck a human you all still fighting about this and that rabble rabble rabble


:hahthatsrich:


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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #16722616 -

Gilgamesh18 said:
BoomerMan420 said:
haha humans I evolved fuck a human you all still fighting about this and that rabble rabble rabble


:hahthatsrich:



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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #16722973 -

Yeah, Chuang, I anticipated a reply like that.  Your idea of the free market is pie-in-the-sky.  The government somehow provides a framework for your free market, so your ideal starts with dependence on government to enable your freedom?  Who pays for this framework to be established and maintained? This framework is what, exactly?  Money?  Who makes it?  How much?  Who secures it?  Who insures its authenticity? Who enforces its use (instead of counterfeit money)?  Contracts?  How are disputes resolved?  How is fraud addressed?  How is equity provided to those who have been defrauded?  Without threat of violence?  Ha!  In such situations someone's going to bring violence to the table, especially if it is not handled in a structured way (such as in court with a scary bailiff present). What are you thinking?


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Edited by Not Quite Social (08/18/12 11:49 PM)

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #16723356 -

I thought the government was supposed to provide a framework, for people. Such as what state taxes provide, schools, police, roads, etc.

I understand the motivation behind you, you don't think the federal government should control everything the way Rome used to control Europe.

Ok fair enough. But what exactly are you arguing, that the government shouldn't provide a framework, and allow people to function on their own? What exactly should they do?


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Not Quite Social]
    #16723421 -

Not Quite Social said:
Let's return to the good old days before there was a minimum wage, back when Americans were paid in company scrips and if workers weren't satisfied with that, the national guard shot their children dead.  :thumbup:



Classic liberal strawman: conflating corpratism with capitalism.

Giving companies exemptions from the common law and statutes is not capitalism- it is corpratism and worthy of condemnation.  The ridiculous thing is when these abuses happen, people want to hand the same corrupt government more power to protect the very people who are harmed and the very people who the government favored.

Its absurd, and this bullshit is constantly trotted out with no justification- just like NQS did here.

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: johnm214]
    #16723710 -

Okay, John, there's a distinction between capitalism and corporatism. Let's consider the circumstance independent of government involvement.  The mine owner decided to pay the miners using scrip/the truck system in order to control the workers and pay them as little as possible. The miners were in desperate need of work. Are you saying, no matter the amount of wealth generated by the miners for the owner--are you saying Rockerfeller had the right as a capitalist to exploit them as he did (as long as government was not involved)?  Whatever low wage Rockerfeller wanted to offer, with whatever strings attached: scrip, company store, bunk house, company doctor--all of this is justified by "market forces" or some such nonsense?  If the company forces you to depend on it this much, if you are to have a job at all and a means of feeding your family, you are in no position to complain about safety hazards and mistreatment; you're in no position to quit without upsetting every aspect of your life.  Should government outlaw exploitation like this, enforce use of currency and a minimum wage, etc., or should government stay out of it and allow the free market to make barnyard draft animals out of people?  What is it about you that believes government is the only problem, that companies and markets will act justly without outside interference or check? 


--------------------

Edited by Not Quite Social (08/19/12 01:46 AM)

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: Not Quite Social] * 1
    #16724375 -

Not Quite Social said:
Okay, John, there's a distinction between capitalism and corporatism. Let's consider the circumstance independent of government involvement.  The mine owner decided to pay the miners using scrip/the truck system in order to control the workers and pay them as little as possible. The miners were in desperate need of work. Are you saying, no matter the amount of wealth generated by the miners for the owner--are you saying Rockerfeller had the right as a capitalist to exploit them as he did (as long as government was not involved)?


Rockefeller didn't exploit them as he did without government involvement, hence your premise is contradictory. 

Yes, he should be able to hire who he wants for what terms he wants as per contract law other law that protects individual rights.


 
Quote:
Whatever low wage Rockerfeller wanted to offer, with whatever strings attached: scrip, company store, bunk house, company doctor--all of this is justified by "market forces" or some such nonsense?


No, it isn't justified at all- where did I talk about what should be, what was justified, or any of that crap?  I didn't.

No, I don't think the above should be legal in a capitalist system per se.  Under some variations of that themse there are unconscionable contracts where an employee recieves no value from their work, or so little value that no reasaonble person would hav emade the deal and thus the contract should be nullified.

If a person wants to work for shitty wages in a shitty company town, however; there is no reason they should be prevented from doing so.  If the terms are not disclosed upon acceptance of hiring, he can and should sue their asses off for renegging on the contract or using deceptive bargaining.  If he knew what he was getting into- there is no neccessary problem.

All of this exists at common law- so what's the need for all this regulation?



Quote:
  If the company forces you to depend on it this much, if you are to have a job at all and a means of feeding your family, you are in no position to complain about safety hazards and mistreatment; you're in no position to quit without upsetting every aspect of your life.



So what?  Some jobs are dangerous, some jobs the company doesn't care what you think.  What's the point?


 
Quote:
Should government outlaw exploitation like this, enforce use of currency and a minimum wage, etc., or should government stay out of it and allow the free market to make barnyard draft animals out of people?  What is it about you that believes government is the only problem, that companies and markets will act justly without outside interference or check? 




Lots of false choices and straw men in there.  I don't accept the premise that the free market makes barnyward draft animals out of people and don't see how the alternative to free markets is exploitation- so I reject your question premised on that ground.

I don't believe government is the only problem, so that's another straw man I reject.

I don't believe companies and markets will act justly without outside interference or check, so that's another straw man.

No, I don't think the government should enforce use of a currency or make a minimum wage (especially not the feds), subject to the requirement that contracts be reasonable and considered with benefits for both parties.

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: johnm214]
    #16734091 -

I'm not happy about this:

"Breaking from Newsmax.com

Zogby Poll: Obama Leads in Florida by 6

President Barack Obama has taken a six-point lead in the crucial swing state of Florida while GOP challenger Mitt Romney has a two-point edge in North Carolina, two new polls by pollster John Zogby and JZ Analytics show.

The Florida online poll of 600 likely voters, taken August 15-17, shows Obama ahead 47 to 41 percent. The president’s position is helped by a 51 percent to 39 percent lead among women and a strong showing with younger voters and Hispanics."

If this guy wins, then it doesn't fucking matter what minimum wage is, because everyone is going to be broke anyway, all the way to the top

:urinate:


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: imachavel]
    #16734109 -

Nobama


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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: johnm214]
    #16734128 -

johnm214 said:
Lots of false choices and straw men in there.  I don't accept the premise that the free market makes barnyward draft animals out of people and don't see how the alternative to free markets is exploitation- so I reject your question premised on that ground.

I don't believe government is the only problem, so that's another straw man I reject.

I don't believe companies and markets will act justly without outside interference or check, so that's another straw man.

No, I don't think the government should enforce use of a currency or make a minimum wage (especially not the feds), subject to the requirement that contracts be reasonable and considered with benefits for both parties.


I do believe that premise. I just think it takes a really really poor person to understand how fucking cheap and un livable $7 an hour is now. And how greedy people are to expect people to work for $5 instead. When you are living it, you won't complain that it's too much for a person "not owning the company"

Look at it this way, company owner ship is getting less and less now anyway. Fucking people can't get 10 grand loans any more, but billionaires are back in business. I don't disagree with the free market, I disagree that it IS the free market. If people don't even make $100 a day doing the most meaningless repetitive shit, they don't have any extra money to spend. You can't support an economy of 300,000,000 people if none of them spend on anything except over priced food and unfair rent.

It's going to get bad. But not for the top. And please don't bring up taxes any more. They don't need tax breaks. Taxes aren't the issue. The federal government shouldn't get involved in business, they should provide the C.I.A., F.B.I., military, and a branch of legislature that meets with congress to make sure each state is provided fairly. This idea of one guy who's company is worth billions and goes broke is ridiculous. Give me $200,000,000 and I guarantee I won't go broke, even with taxes and bull shit I buy every year. I couldn't spend that much money. I fucking guarantee it, on my fucking life


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: imachavel] * 2
    #16734368 -

Quote:
I just think it takes a really really poor person to understand how fucking cheap and un livable $7 an hour is now.


EARTH TO SPOILED WESTERNER WITH FIRST WORLD PROBLEMS:  Billions of people live on less than that.  Live.  Im not talking about starving kids in Africa.  Billions, living right now.  Im not taking advantage of exchange rates or costs of living either - I'm talking purchasing power parity.

Something tells me you come from a rich family.. Because people often have a hard time fathoming a lifestyle that is less than they were raised with.  I am that way too.  I have a hard time fathoming how most people live on just a couple grand a year.  But they do.

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: DieCommie]
    #16734490 -

DieCommie said:
Quote:
I just think it takes a really really poor person to understand how fucking cheap and un livable $7 an hour is now.


EARTH TO SPOILED WESTERNER WITH FIRST WORLD PROBLEMS:  Billions of people live on less than that.  Live.  Im not talking about starving kids in Africa.  Billions, living right now.  Im not taking advantage of exchange rates or costs of living either - I'm talking purchasing power parity.

Something tells me you come from a rich family.. Because people often have a hard time fathoming a lifestyle that is less than they were raised with.  I am that way too.  I have a hard time fathoming how most people live on just a couple grand a year.  But they do.


yeah I came from a rich family :rolleyes: which is why I have a hard time understanding how people can live with less, because I've never had less

No I'm lying, I'm a chemist that makes 65k a year minimum :stonedjerk:

remind me to come visit you on Park Avenue. You better hope Obama doesn't screw up the rich peoples money they way he has screwed up the poor peoples money.......... oops :facepalm: I forgot the politically correct term, high middle class earners, that by our standard making under 30k a year, are poor, but by BILLIONS of peoples standards, are extremely high middle class. Remember DieCommies statistics:

out of 6 billion, 1 billion makes less then equivalent room and board. Only in the U.S. Btw die commie, you aren't from out of this country are you? Or you'd know that along with cheaper wages in other countries are cheaper payments. Do you honestly think renting an apartment in the Philip pines cost $800 for a one bedroom?

I do know one thing, when the company that employs you as a chemist goes under, I don't know who'll bail them out, but it sure won't be me :urinate: and it doesn't look like my taxes will be able to do it either, considering the Federal Reserve is just........................... about................................................... out


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Re: Cost of a Two Bedroom Apartment Too High For Minimum Wage [Re: imachavel]
    #16734577 -

Quote:
Or you'd know that along with cheaper wages in other countries are cheaper payments.


Of course.  I anticipated this rebuttal and pre-empted it by reminding you that the statistic is with respect to purchasing power parity.  That means it normalizes the cost of rent, food, etc between nations.  It takes into account that a kilo of corn meal costs more in downtown new york than rural mexico.

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